Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ

[laronius]

If I remember correctly Hugh Nibley was a very stoic person in life and his family related that it was really only near the end of his life when he had bad health and was largely confined to his bed that his emotions really started to show. 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I apologize for not responding sooner.  It is obvious to me that in this mortal life we have only enough information to shape general ideas.  You are correct.  On the surface it does appear that the ultimate responsibility for all things – good and bad – can only occur under the intelligence and direction of our Father in Heaven.  It also seem obvious to me that in our little corner of this vast universe – we live under very intricately stacked circumstances.  Perhaps even more so for the spiritual things over which we have no empirical means to scrutinize.

I will propose that our Father in Heaven is unable to redeem the sins from the fall of his covenant children.  In essence there are some things impossible for G-d because in his presents that is no allowance for sin.  But I assume our Father in Heaven is intelligent enough to devise a way and means that a Plan of Salvation could occur.   This is what I have been able to surmise so far.

First: The fall and execution of man’s mortal experience to come to an understanding of good and evil is required to take place beyond the presents of our Father in Heaven in order that the elements of evil can be learned by experience.

Second: A real experience of evil – of necessity must include the experience of Death.  Both physical death and spiritual death.  But this experience of death must be out of agency and choice of the individual – G-d will not force such on anyone.  To do so would be an act of evil.  This singular point answers for me why Lucifer’s exception turned him from a being of light to a slave of darkness.

Third: The only method to make a mortal experience real and work properly two things are a must:  The first thing is that an iron clad escape plan has to be in place to mitigate for all the sins.  The second thing is that an element of ignorance must be so that there is an element of innocence in all such sins.  In other words, as Jesus once said – those involved really do not know what they are doing.

The iron clad escape plan required a Messiah (Christ) that would oversee and be in charge (responsible) for the implementation of the entire plan.  They would grant agency in order to put the plan into effect, provide an environment for all to experience the plan of salvation and then fulfill every tiny bit of justice (suffering and death) to redeem all the sins of the somewhat ignorant living by faith (not pure knowledge).

This is – as near as I have been able to project – the only way and means by witch I believe the covenant children of G-d our Father would be able to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and then partake of the tree of eternal life and be exalted through the atonement (Kippur) of Christ and their repentance – all of which comes to a competition or finality when each individual comes before G-d the Father to make an accounting to insure all things were completed according to each’s agency.

I welcome questions and any input by all that wish to explore why Christ and only Christ is able to redeem us and fulfill ever whit of justice.

 

The Traveler

The Father’s responsibility is reflected in D&C 93:30-31: “All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man…” So, the extent of anyone’s agency changes with the estate in which they are placed as determined by God.

My perspective is, that by virtue of authoring and sustaining the Plan of Salvation in all estates, the Father has assumed the responsibility of redeeming us in each estate through which we progress.

I think there are many reasons the Savior is Jehovah/Jesus Christ. Simply put, He was the only one willing and able to carry out the task to the divine and humanly-impossible extent required. The Father was not willing and able because He is not willing and able to cease to be God who can author and sustain a plan of salvation. A statement like this might invite the “omnipotence paradox,” the efficaciousness of which is impractical if we lack the empirical means to absolutely scrutinize matters of faith.

But perhaps a good common-ground start for a discussion on why Christ and only Christ is able to redeem us and fulfill every whit of justice might be this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-3-jesus-christ-our-chosen-leader-and-savior?lang=eng What questions does this chapter bring up?

[laronius]

In determining what God may or may not have been culpable of or responsible for (I don't want to get hung up on terminology) it might be good to consider what exactly Adam and Eve did in the garden.

Alma 22:31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal, and becoming as gods, knowing good from evil, placing themselves in a state to act, or being placed in a state to act according to their wills and pleasures, whether to do evil or to do good— 32 Therefore God gave unto them commandments, after having made known unto them the plan of redemption, that they should not do evil, the penalty thereof being a second death, which was an everlasting death as to things pertaining unto righteousness...

The initial commandment to not partake of the forbidden fruit was a temporal commandment because breaking it brought about physical death. It was only after they partook that God gave them the spiritual commandment not to do evil which would result in a second death. 

So while Adam and Eve broke a commandment it wasn't one that necessarily made them unworthy in a sinful way. Having gained knowledge that would soon change, hence the need to be expelled from God's presence, but the breaking of the temporal commandment did not directly cause unworthiness. This allowed them to immediately enter into sacred covenants with God prior to their expulsion. 

If all of this is correct, then the most that could be argued that God was responsible for was physical death which was remedied unconditionally by the resurrection.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, laronius said:

The initial commandment to not partake of the forbidden fruit was a temporal commandment because breaking it brought about physical death. It was only after they partook that God gave them the spiritual commandment not to do evil which would result in a second death.

I don't buy it. God does not give temporal commandments. All of his commandments are spiritual.

Edited January 9 by Vort

[CV75]

On 1/9/2025 at 12:29 PM, Vort said:

I don't buy it. God does not give temporal commandments. All of his commandments are spiritual.

Yes, all commandments are spiritual. But commandments given in one sphere or estate may be superseded by those in a higher restate, transgressed in order to attain a higher estate, or added upon as a higher estate is attained. Sometimes "temporal" simply means "lesser."

For example, the law of Moses is referred to as "temporal" because it is lesser than the New Testament Christ taught, and operated under a lesser (Aaronic, not Melchizedek) priesthood authority. It had a lot to do with the physical activities of the the chosen people of God, but nevertheless taught spiritual principles and were thus fundamentally spiritual, as is the power of the Aaronic Priesthood. Many prophets between Moses and Christ held the Melchizedek Priesthood, but the law of Moses fell under the Aaronic. Another example is that tithing and the United Order of Zion are both spiritual laws of consecration, but tithing is "lesser" than the United order of Zion (10% not 100%).

Adam and Eve were given commandments fit for life in Eden (e.g., not partake of the forbidden fruit), commandments fit for life in exaltation (multiply and replenish the earth), and commandments fit for life in Eden, mortality, and exaltation (stewardship, dress and keep the garden, other forms of life, and the physical world). All are spiritual but some are "lesser" than others because God has higher spheres in which we are meant to act. The commandments for Eden were designed for transgression so that His children would pass through mortality, and onward and upward to exaltation through The Savior.

I think had Adam and Eve not heeded the serpent, the transgression of Edenic law (eating the forbidden fruit) would have still somehow occurred, and the devil and his angels would still be on earth where they had already been cast down, waiting for them.

[laronius]

On 1/9/2025 at 10:29 AM, Vort said:

I don't buy it. God does not give temporal commandments. All of his commandments are spiritual.

I will add to what @CV75 has said.

I know what you are referencing:

D&C 29:34 Wherefore, verily I say unto you that all things unto me are spiritual, and not at any time have I given unto you a law which was temporal; neither any man, nor the children of men; neither Adam, your father, whom I created. 35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

But this is not the same use of the word temporal as used elsewhere. Here it is being lumped into the same category as natural (think natural man), carnal, and sensual. Rather all of God's commandments have spiritual ramifications to be sure but the laws themselves pertain to the things of our mortal existence and hence temporary, though with eternal/spiritual significance.

For example:

Alma 22:31 Wherefore, he gave commandments unto men, they having first transgressed the first commandments as to things which were temporal...

2 Nephi 2:5 ...Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

D&C 89:2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days.

Moses 7:42 And Enoch also saw Noah, and his family; that the posterity of all the sons of Noah should be saved with a temporal salvation;

In each of these instances God is giving commandments to sustain physical life in order to bring about His eternal purposes. But the commandments themselves were temporal in nature.