Hi, about hell and unforgivable sin

[Vikier]

Hi all, I'm new here and am not knowledgeable about lds. I was questioning the usual theory of hell and the explanation of blasphemy of holy spirit which is described as a unforgivable sin. I can't believe our father god will put us in hell whatsoever, so I'm here to ask for your help on it, what's your explanation of hell, salvation, and unforgivable sin. Thanks.

[WANDERER]

The general non-LDS interpretation is

to attribute the works of the Holy Spirit to satan. There's not much remedy for that one. You would be too opposed to God to seek or accept salvation.

[Vikier]

Thanks Wanderer, but what are lds beliefs on that coz the non-lds belief has already put me to eternal fire

[WANDERER]

In my opinion, there probably aren't too many people in this world who are given revelation by the Holy Spirit and aware it is the Holy Spirit, but choose to deliberately spread malice and deception and say it is not and know that what they are saying is a lie.

[Gwen]

i'm sure someone will correct me if my "doctrine" is off. having been raised lds and not taking the time to look up the references lol this is how i see it all.

unlike some other chruches we don't teach hell fire and damnation as hell. heaven and hell are mearly waiting rooms not a final destination. we often refere to them, i like the terms better, as prison and paridise. we belive that progression is an eternal principle. those that have not had the required ordinances on this earth to progress go to "prison/hell" till those ordinances are preformed. it's not a bad place, simply a stoping of progression. those in paridise are called to teach and help those in prision along so that they can have what they need to progress. thus the emphasis on doing temple work for the dead that didn't have the oportunity. those of us that do the work for the dead can't "get them out of prison/hell" they must do that themselves, what we do is get them the ordinances they need so if they choose to accept and between them and the lord are found worthy to progress they can. i hope that makes since, there is no "get out of jail free card". after the waiting room (heaven/paridise and hell/prison) phase of our life, then progression goes on from there. the closest we have to "hell" in the way that i think many churches see it (eternal torment, and final place to reside) would be outer darkness. that is where the unforgivable sin comes in. you have to know, without a doubt, without question, that god is there and then openly deny it. i personally think qualifying for that sin takes more than a few mistakes in life. i think of it as looking at the noonday sun and then preaching that it's dark out.

don't know if that makes since to you or answers your question. i hope it does some. feel free to ask for clarification on anything i said. lol sometimes it doesn't quite come out like i wanted it to.

[Vikier]

Thanks Gwan, the problem is, I said "I ---- the holy spirit" as in blasphemy challenge. Will I be in outer darkness?

[SanctitasDeo]

I would be rather surprised if merely saying something could get you damned. LDS believe that you would have to know the Holy Spirit and know that God is there, and then turn around and preach the opposite. The imagery of looking at the noonday sun and at the same time denying that it exists is very apt, I think.

Swearing at the Holy Ghost, as rude as it is, shouldn't merit outer darkness. I still wouldn't recommend it, though. :)

[Gwen]

i'm not sure i understand what you think you have done then. maybe you should talk to the bishop? this isn't necessarly the place.

i think to qualify as an unforgiviable sin it takes more than a mistake. you have to take proactive concious actions against what you know without a shodow of a doubt.

one example i recall sitting in a sundayschool class where they were talking about some that witnessed the book of mormon and then fell away from the church. yes that's bad. how could you have more evidence than with your own eyes, the noonday sun? however none of them ever denied that they had seen what they had seen, none of them (to my knowledge) preached against it, claimed that they lied the first time, etc. they made a mistake they did not deny what they knew.

i have said before if i ever stopped going to chruch (saddly i have thought about it) that i could never attend another chruch. there are things i know, though i may lack the strength to keep my covenants i won't deny what i know. it takes more than saying "well i know i had revelation that it was true and stopped going to church, fell away" you have to then go out and preach, take action, claim you never knew, claim it was all a lie, fight against the lord and your testamony. that is how you loose your agency.

an example from the scriptures, to the best of my recollection lamen and lemual never denied seeing an angel. they may have forgotten many times and kept making the same stupid mistakes but they never denied what they saw. though we think of them as the "bad guys" they still never commited an unforgivable sin, to my knowledge. will they have things to answer for? yes, without a doubt. are they condemed to eternal damnation? i can't answer that, up to them and the lord but based on what we know i'd guess no.

alma the younger is another good example. his dad was the prophet, you can safely say he had been taught the truth from his childhood. he was among the church's greatest opposition at that time. did he know? safe to say he was taught at the very least. he had a huge experiance that gave him a knowledge as the noonday sun. after that he changed, became what the lord knew he could be. i personaly don't think he could have ever qualified for an unforgivable sin without that experiance, not till after that experiance was he capapble of such an act. what he did after is what would seal his fate. did he get away with what he had done without consequence? nope, read the account. he did have to suffer for what he had done (again, no get out of jail free card). but he wasn't eternally damned.

honestly though i think i could make some very dumb choices, and really mess my life up i'm not confident i've had an experiance that would allow me to commit this unforgivable sin. not sure many ppl progress that far in this life.

just my opinion of course, i guess i could be wrong and in for a rude awakening. lol

[rameumptom]

LDS teaching is that those who become Sons of Perdition will be cast forever into Outer Darkness. The requirements for becoming a son of perdition are as follows: First, a person must receive the ordinances of the gospel, including the temple ordinances. Second, the individual must receive an extremely strong witness of the resurrected Christ, some LDS leaders have suggested it must be a perfect witness. Third, the individual must then totally reject Christ and become his total enemy. Of those who have lived on the earth, we are only certain of one person who has achieved this status: Cain.

Prior to this life, we lived in God's presence as spirit children. When it came time to develop ourselves further by receiving a mortal experience, some rebelled against God's plan. These were led by Lucifer, a chief angel in the divine council. He and a third of the host of heaven were cast out of heaven, and will in the last day be sent to Outer Darkness as sons of perdition.

During the Millennium, while Christ shall reign, we read that at the end, Satan shall be loosed for a season and gather up an army to oppose Christ. These shall also be sons of perdition, as they will all willingly fight against their perfect knowledge of Christ.

We believe that the Atonement of Christ is a near universal salvation. It will save to a level of salvation and glory all those who do not become sons of perdition. God has prepared several levels of heaven/glory for his children that do not totally oppose him. This includes people of all religions, beliefs, races, and financial levels.

How works fit into the mix is to help determine our level of salvation. The Book of Mormon teaches that all are resurrected through Christ and all are brought back to the presence of God through Christ's atonement. But then, the wicked will be miserable in His presence and seek another place that is more comfortable to dwell (Alma 11-12, Moroni 9). Therefore, Christ in his loving kindness has prepared lower levels of heaven for those who are unable to dwell in God's presence, because they have not become the type of individual that can stand in His presence unashamed.

Now, there is a hell that awaits the sinner. After death and before resurrection, we shall all go to a place called the Spirit World. There are two parts to this place, paradise and spirit prison. Christ told the thief that "today thou shalt be with me in paradise", meaning this resting place for those who had accepted Christ, where we can continue to grow spiritually and prepare for the final judgment.

The epistle of Peter tells where Christ preached to the deceased spirits in prison that they might be judged "according to the flesh." This included those who had died in the Great Flood, according to Peter. Part of the prison includes a hell or place of punishment for those who have sinned and not repented. Individuals will remain in the place of punishment until either they repent fully of it and embrace Christ, or they have personally paid entirely for it. For some, it could take centuries to pay for such sins.

Alma describes his conversion experience to his son in what sounds like a near death experience (Alma 36-37). He tells of falling into a deep coma, where he is wracked with exquisite pain for 3 days. Only when he recalls the teachings of Christ, and pleads to God for deliverance through Christ's atonement, does the pain go away. He then describes the paradise he is now in as being as exquisitely pleasing and joyful as the pain was exquisitely painful. We are commanded to repent, or suffer even as Christ did (D&C 19), who bled from every pore and trembled under the pain. This is very representative of the pain one goes through in spirit prison.

In this way, we can see how every "knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord." All will turn to him to rescue them from such intense pain they've brought upon themselves in this spirit prison hell. Yes, this probably includes people as evil as Hitler, Pol Pot, et al.

So, there is a hell. But there's also a deliverance for all but the most wicked who insist on being Christ's total and complete enemy. In this, there is greater hope and joy in the LDS teaching on heaven and hell than in any other religion I've studied so far.

[grannysue]

Thanks Gwan, the problem is, I said "I ---- the holy spirit" as in blasphemy challenge. Will I be in outer darkness?

I think in order to qualify for outer darkness you have to have a sure knowledge and then blatantly and firmly deny it. A sure knowledge to me connotes a perfect knowledge, and I suspect there are very few on this earth who have that....certainly not I! Therefore, there are very, very few who will be in outer darkness and my guess is that none of those will be feeling any sense of repentance...while still on earth, at least.

In other words, saying something isn't the same as meaning it...or as having the knowledge to even be able to mean it.

If you are worried about or regretting whatever you did or said now, you just need to repent and correct the fallout inasmuch as you can.

[tree]

thank you vikier for asking that question, i about 12 yrs ago got angry with god because all of the evil that was in the world, so i cursed him for letting it happen and not stopping it. of course i didnt mean it and i repented over and over and over and ive been asking god to show me a sign that i am forgiven because i have been over ridden with guilt about it for 12 yrs now. here is my sign, through your question, i have my answer. god bless you vikier!!!!!!! JESUS LOVES YOU!!!!!!! tree

[Traveler]

Hi all, I'm new here and am not knowledgeable about lds. I was questioning the usual theory of hell and the explanation of blasphemy of holy spirit which is described as a unforgivable sin. I can't believe our father god will put us in hell whatsoever, so I'm here to ask for your help on it, what's your explanation of hell, salvation, and unforgivable sin. Thanks.

The only occupients of Hell are those that really really want to be there. But then who would want to walk around heaven meeting all the people they hate would not forgive?

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

Here is what is taught.

The gravest of all sins is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. One may speak even against Jesus Christ in ignorance and, upon repentance, be forgiven, but knowingly to sin against the Holy Ghost by denying its influence after having received it is unpardonable (Matt. 12:31-32; Jacob 7:19; Alma 39:6), and the consequences are inescapable. Such denial dooms the perpetrator to the hell of the second spiritual death (TPJS, p. 361). This extreme judgment comes because the person sins knowingly against the light, thereby severing himself from the redeeming grace of Christ. He is numbered with the sons of perdition (D&C 76:43).

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained, "No man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, nor in this life, until he receives the Holy Ghost" (TPJS, p. 357). To commit the unpardonable sin, a person "must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against Him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him…. he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened to him, and to deny the Plan of Salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it" (TPJS, p. 358; cf. Heb. 10:26-29).

If people have such knowledge and willfully turn altogether away, it is a sin against light, a sin against the Holy Ghost, and figuratively "they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6; D&C 76:35). Such remain as though there were no Atonement, except that they shall be resurrected from the dead (Alma 11:41). RODNEY TURNER

(Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 1-4 vols., edited by Daniel H. Ludlow (New York: Macmillan, 1992), 1499.)

Our Lord told the Jews that eventually — either in this world or in the world to come — all sins would be forgiven except the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. (Matt. 12:31-32; Mark 3:28-30; Luke 12:10.) This sin or blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is thus the unpardonable sin.

Particular note should be taken in this connection of the fact that forgiveness of sins does not thereby confer celestial salvation upon a person. "All will suffer until they obey Christ himself," the Prophet said. (Teachings, p. 357.) The wicked and ungodly will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire in hell until they finally obey Christ, repent of their sins, and gain forgiveness therefrom. Then they shall obtain the resurrection and an inheritance in the telestial and not the celestial kingdom. (D. & C. 76:81-107.) Those who have committed the unpardonable sin, however, will not be redeemed from the devil and instead, after their resurrection, will be cast out as sons of perdition to dwell with the devil and his angels in eternity. (D. & C. 76:30-49.)

Commission of the unpardonable sin consists in crucifying unto oneself the Son of God afresh and putting him to open shame. (Heb. 6:4-8; D. & C. 76:34-35.) To commit this unpardonable crime a man must receive the gospel, gain from the Holy Ghost by revelation the absolute knowledge of the divinity of Christ, and then deny "the new and everlasting covenant by which he was sanctified, calling it an unholy thing, and doing despite to the Spirit of grace. (Teachings, p. 128.) He thereby commits murder by assenting unto the Lord's death, that is, having a perfect knowledge of the truth he comes out in open rebellion and places himself in a position wherein he would have crucified Christ knowing perfectly the while that he was the Son of God. Christ is thus crucified afresh and put to open shame. (D. & C. 132:27.)

"What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin?" the Prophet asked. "He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"When a man begins to be an enemy to this work he hunts me, he seeks to kill me, and never ceases to thirst for my blood. He gets the spirit of the devil — the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life — the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot save such persons; you cannot bring them to repentance; they make open war, like the devil, and awful is the consequence." (Teachings, p. 358.)

Among other things, this statement from the Prophet, explodes forever the mythical fantasy that the sons of perdition are so few they can be numbered on the fingers of the hand.

(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 817.)

[tree]

tubaloth, thank you so much for that post, i had wondered if i had committed the unpardonal sin when i got angry with god because i felt dumped off in this evil cold place, not knowing how and why i was placed here, i was racked with fear because of all the violence and disease, i knew there was a god that had the power to stop this and couldnt figure out why he didnt stop it? then i wondered where i would end up in eternity? this all took place when i was about 26 or 27 yrs old, then when i was 34yrs old i found the LDS. church, i repented all my sins and was baptized. i knew basicly that i was forgiven, but i couldnt shake the fact that i got mad at heavenly father and the guilt was tormenting me. but i have been praying for forgiveness and for peace at least twelve yrs. and now i am finally free. thanks again, tree

[rameumptom]

Tree,

Could God stop all the violence and struggles in this life? Yes, he could. But he won't. Why? Because these things are necessary for our eternal progression. We do not understand fully, but the idea is that growth comes through opposition (2 Ne 2). Without the Fall of Adam, there would be no reason for the Atonement of Christ. The two of these together give us our agency. IOW, without the tragedy, there would be no triumph, no hero, no salvation.

Satan's twisted plan would have removed the trials and danger and opposition from our life. While this may have given us a life of simple bliss, it could never have given us eternal progression or joy. We would not have understood enough to appreciate the Atonement, for there would be nothing to compare it with. It's like trying to understand what a Ruth's Christ steak is like, when you've only ate hotdogs your entire life. Without something to compare, it is meaningless.

Revelation teaches us that when Jesus comes in power, he will wipe away the tears of all he saves. And there will be many tears to be wiped away. Our days of struggle and mourning will be turned into a rejoicing so exquisite that we cannot imagine how wonderful it will be. We will gladly bow the knee and confess Jesus as Savior and Lord, because we will understand just what he has done for us in that day.

This is why Ether and Moroni could live for years in the aftermath of total carnage and destruction, and still hope in Christ for a better world. That hope is an anchor to the soul (Ether 12:4), even in dire situations.

Christ and Father are eager to forgive us. But they also want us to return to them in heaven and receive as great a glory as we are willing and able to receive. That can only come through experience and opposition. We have to trust them to fix everything and make everything all right.

If this life was the end, then it would make sense to curse a God that would create such a tragic place for people to dwell in. But this is only a short time in our eternal journey. God has and does save almost all his children from eternal hell. And he's ready to wipe away our tears when we call upon him.

[Gwen]

just something that came to mind when reading the direction this topic has taken. sorry it's a bit off topic. :)

The Law Of Life

Author unknown.

The tree that never had to fight

For sun and sky and air and light,

That stood out in the open plain

And always got its share of rain,

Never became a forest king,

But lived and died a scrubby thing.

The man who never had to toil

Who never had to win his share

Of sun sky and light and air,

Never became a manly man,

But lived and died as he began.

Good timber does not grow in ease.

The stronger wind, the tougher trees,

The farther sky, the greater length,

The more the storm, the more the strength,

By sun and cold, by rain and snows,

In tree or man, good timber grows.

[Maya]

Vicier for starting this thread. It has been very interesting to read and so many answers that touched my sole! It is sooo god to get these things explained short, so I know what to answer when someone asks.. answer short... I hope that no one here is against me translating and borrowing the wording from here... I could never say it so well myself. I know some finish frends of mine that have had questions about this and I am afraid I have not worded me as well as you have done here.

If I have understood it right if you confess here on earth and go through punishment, excommunication if needed, the sin is forgotten for ever and you will not need to suffer ever more.

Still there remains the human question: God forgives, but can his followers forget!??

May my prayer be; keep us ALL from doing wrong, what ever the wrong might be....

[tree]

thank you all for your help ,explainations and that awesome poem,with godly love, tree

[tree]

rameumptom, thank you for the post, i shared it with my family. extremely helpful!!!! very grateful, tree

[rameumptom]

rameumptom, thank you for the post, i shared it with my family. extremely helpful!!!! very grateful, tree

Glad to share it. When we begin to understand the atonement as taught in the Book of Mormon and latter day scriptures, we get a bigger understanding of the whys and wherefores of this world. It really is a classroom for us.

[Hemidakota]

To simplify this in three terms [Ref: Rameumptom]:

1] Membership of the Savior church and had received temple oridances

2] Receive the Second Comforter - heavens opened [D&C 76:43]

3] Reject and an enemy to the Savior; opposed the church [D&C 76 31-38]

Ref: Alma 39:6

Reading material:

"Miracle of Forgiveness", Pg117

"We Believe" Topic 790

Joseph Smith - "All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (To the Church in general conference-to a congregation of 20,000-"King Follett Sermon," April 7, 1844) (See HC6:302-17, also see The Words of Joseph Smith, pp. 340-62) HC6:314; DGSM:93

[tree]

hello what does it mean "to have the heavens open to you ? tree

[rameumptom]

In this instance, it means to have a certain knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior. This can only happen by having the heavens opened and seeing Jesus face to face as the Second Comforter. D&C 93:1-25 explains well our moving from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace. And when we have achieved enough grace in our lives, we can see the Savior face to face. If not in this world, then in the world to come.

[Abraham]

As we know those who are not exalted in the CK are left to serve those who are going about their celestial business, or in other words those who are in the CK. In other words those who don't make it will be eternal home teachers and the 'hell' we talk about is being home taught over and over and over, what could be worse than that? Just Kidding Just Kidding!!!!

BTW - we are told that most LDS should not focus on any kingdom other than the Celesitial, as we pretty much all will make it there, but there are three kingdoms in the CK. We then can shoot for the highest or most exalted.

I am sure most of will be in shock and awe when we see things as Jacob said and see "things as they REALLY are."

Abraham

[Hemidakota]

Sometimes I wish I had a home teacher. lol

I do believe, we can gain the same observation as Jacob achieved in mortality.