Snow Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by naomi@Jun 7 2004, 09:44 PM ... I simply could not fit in the paradigm of "my" wards (had a habit of "thinking too much" or so I was told: this was a criticism I found complimentary) and could not simply "follow the prophet" and stuff down any questions that were not considered "reverent enough." What is Snow's problem? I find his hatred and anger rather sad. Whoops Naomi!There goes your passive-agressive insultation again-gain.What could possibly make you think that I am angry or that I hate you? I do nothing of the sort. I am, in fact, taking note of the exactly what you intended. There - you did it again. You very decidedly meant to insult the Church and it members when you implied that, unlike you, they are unthinking and unquestioning.Why oh why dear oh dear Naomi could it possiblybly bother you that we notice the insults you intended to insult us with?You know that song "Try a little tenderness"? Substitute honesty for tenderness and hum a few bars, will ya?
naomi Posted June 8, 2004 Author Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by LaurelTree@Jun 7 2004, 11:13 PM Naomi, You said it best in your story about the store. One of those people might have been for real, yet you wouldn't even let them in enough to know there sincerity. I know in life we all get hurt, but sometimes our reaction to that hurt is to closes out people who really do care. If you wanna box up your life and throw it away thats fine, but my life is more important than a couple of ignorant people who might have hurt my feelings, the gospel means more to me than that. If you would open up to a few of those people who you think don't care, you would realize it's not that they don't care, there lives are as busy and as hecktic as yours is. We are all working the struggles of life together , we can either lift each other up when possiable or leave it all behind on a wim. We all ask questions when we read the scriptures and thats ok, but it's when we allow negitivity to set in and steal our testimony away, is when we are left with what we truly put into it in the first place. Fast, Pray, And Ponder.......please before tossing the boxLove & PrayersLaureltree Laurel:The hardest part of leaving was the sense that I was letting down the folks around me. I had to count the cost and decide what was really important and in all honesty, my soul was dying by degrees every day I stayed "active" and as a result stopped feeling, thinking or living. Leaving I lost the depression that was a constant companion (sure there are times of despair but there is a joy and a peace I never had as an active LDS woman). The folks who offended me at the most were a catalyst of sorts. I am heading to sleep: long day and more of the same for the week to come.
naomi Posted June 8, 2004 Author Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Snow+Jun 7 2004, 11:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jun 7 2004, 11:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--naomi@Jun 7 2004, 09:44 PM ... I simply could not fit in the paradigm of "my" wards (had a habit of "thinking too much" or so I was told: this was a criticism I found complimentary) and could not simply "follow the prophet" and stuff down any questions that were not considered "reverent enough." What is Snow's problem? I find his hatred and anger rather sad. Whoops Naomi!There goes your passive-agressive insultation again-gain.What could possibly make you think that I am angry or that I hate you? I do nothing of the sort. I am, in fact, taking note of the exactly what you intended. There - you did it again. You very decidedly meant to insult the Church and it members when you implied that, unlike you, they are unthinking and unquestioning.Why oh why dear oh dear Naomi could it possiblybly bother you that we notice the insults you intended to insult us with?You know that song "Try a little tenderness"? Substitute honesty for tenderness and hum a few bars, will ya? What are you talking about Snow? You are a bit offended and thus are offensive. I really hope you can find some peace in your heart.
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Snow@Jun 7 2004, 09:28 PM I am relatively certain that Abraham did not have strong feelings one way or the other about Joseph Smith yet I am quite certain that he is headed toward heaven, and don't spare the horses... I do realize that you both say ugly things to each other. I wasn't aware of the history. So, I take back what I said about 'cringing'. One must defend one's self.Come on, Snow. I'm talking about people alive today. The church teaches that you can't get into the celestial kingdom without being baptized, and to be baptized you must believe that JS was a prophet. No?I think your posts are very insightful, although I don't agree with a lot of your beliefs. That's what makes this world interesting, I think.
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote I wonder if you couldn't start putting out true facts about the church instead of all the 'proven' wrong facts that you have gotten off the anti-sites...It really shows you haven't really studied anything out yourself...you are just parrotting junk...I mean JUNK....that has no basis in fact. We all know that facts are not what religion is about. We are simply stating our beliefs and discussing them. If facts abounded, there would be no debate, and we would theoretically all belong to the same church. Sometimes, I really don't know why any of us even bother! As far as anti sites, I'm not sure what you're speaking of. I just made a statement that you have to believe that JS was a prophet in order to be baptized; hence not coming to the Father through Jesus alone. This isn't something I need to get from an anti site. I personally was asked this question. Quote IOW you have to change from the focus of my point....because it hit the mark...This is so not true, it's laughable. I just chose not to reply to you because it is not worth my time. You tend to have very emotional posts. Guess I had a change of heart.I thought you would be nice to me from now on, since we righted our wrongs. And I have honored the request from the PM you sent me. Don't get so angry because we have different beliefs. I haven't said anything rude or hateful, have I? And please, whatever you do, don't call me a bad penny! Quote Why should believing in the prophet who started the church be a wrong thing? That is just crazy...It's not wrong, per say. I just don't believe it. I was replying to a point made by Lindy: "Jesus IS the only way to salvation...to the Father...I don't get where you think that mormons believe that mormonism is the only way to the Father."I don't believe that Mormons truly believe or teach this, and I was offering evidence to support that. Is it really 'crazy'?
Guest bizabra Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 6 2004, 07:25 PM Quote When I call you a liar, that is because you lie. The lie you told was that Mormons don't believe the Bible. Here is the lying quote:"It just doesn't believe in all the bible."I know it is a lie, you know it is a lie, Naomi knows it is a lie and every single person on this board knows you are a lying liar. There is the proof, in quotation marks. Now, where is the lie you say I told? You can't find it because it is not there. So that makes you a double liar.I will tell you a few things that mormons don't believe.- that there is only 1 God, none before and none will come after. This comes from the book of Isaiah, yet mormons seem to think they can become gods if they are worthy enough.- that Jesus was the only son of God. mormons seem to believe that Jesus and satan are brothers.- that Jesus is the only way to the father. mormons seem to believe that mormonism is the only way to the father.You know very well that mormons do not believe in the fullness of the bible. That makes you a liar. Stop lying, liar. Quote and even if you have a problem with Snow's posts that you have seen, I don't think that you have seen the insightful inspiritional posts that he has shared with usI have been posting on this board longer than the vast majority of people here and i can say that the posts lindy is speaking of are very few and far between. snow says nice things when you agree with him. Dare to disagree and you will be insulted, told how wrong you are, and called a liar for saying otherwise. Quote And you need to know that Tr2 is not a memeber of the LDS churchThat's obvious because I don't have a persecution complex. And I don't see differing opinions as "hateful". Jesus and Satan are brothers in the mormon mythology, in the same way that ALL of us are brothers and sisters. God is our spirit father, the father of our "intelligences". That makes Satan YOUR brother, too! LOL!However, god only had one actual physical mortal "begotten" child via Mary, and that was Jesus. Capiche?Not that I believe this, just thought I would help clarify things.
Snow Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 8 2004, 03:56 AM Come on, Snow. I'm talking about people alive today. The church teaches that you can't get into the celestial kingdom without being baptized, and to be baptized you must believe that JS was a prophet. No? Technically that's true but that is more an administrative issue. It is a matter of policy. Policies can and do change. Certainly acceptance of Joseph Smith prophetic calling is not an eternal doctrine. It has no salvific properties of it's own - it is merely an intellectual agreement. It is faith and grace and perservering to the end that save. It says so in our scriptures
Ray Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 A prospective LDS should be able to testify that Jesus Christ ordained Joseph Smith to establish the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints upon the face of this Earth. That Jesus sent certain people to Joseph Smith (namely Moses, Elijah, Elias, John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John), to enable Joseph Smith to establish the church of Jesus Christ upon this Earth with the keys of the kingdom that Jesus wanted him to have. That Jesus sent Moroni to instruct Joseph Smith and help him find the plates and other things that Moroni had buried in the Earth. That Joseph Smith was able to translate those plates by the gifts and power of God into modern English, revealing to us what we now know as the Book of Mormon. That Jesus continued to help Joseph Smith establish the church of Christ upon the Earth by continuing to give him inspiration and revelation, many of which we now know as the Doctrine & Covenants.If a prospective LDS can’t agree with what I just said about Joseph Smith, then why would they even want to join this church? Because of the social connections? Heh, sorry, but this church is not a social club. It’s a kingdom, or government, or organization, guided by certain revelations and laws from Jesus Christ. These laws come with penalties, and a person cannot join this church unless they covenant, or promise, to accept and obey these laws. If a person breaks them, or refuses to accept them, then that person is held totally accountable. After all, it was their choice to accept them or refuse them in the first place.Btw, being able to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God is more than merely an intellectual agreement. How do you imagine you would you feel once you got to “heaven” and found Joseph Smith there?One more point.The reason any person [alive on this Earth today] needs to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God to get into the celestial kingdom is because a person can only enter the celestial kingdom after receiving certain required ordinances, which can only be received in the temple, which requires a temple recommend, which requires the acceptance of certain revelations and laws from Jesus Christ. Thus, a person needs more than merely to be a member of any ole’ Bible believing church.
Guest Starsky Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Snow+Jun 8 2004, 08:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jun 8 2004, 08:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jun 8 2004, 03:56 AM Come on, Snow. I'm talking about people alive today. The church teaches that you can't get into the celestial kingdom without being baptized, and to be baptized you must believe that JS was a prophet. No? Technically that's true but that is more an administrative issue. It is a matter of policy. Policies can and do change. Certainly acceptance of Joseph Smith prophetic calling is not an eternal doctrine. It has no salvific properties of it's own - it is merely an intellectual agreement. It is faith and grace and perservering to the end that save. It says so in our scriptures I think it is totally funny that one would want to be baptised into this church without knowing and believing in Living prophets....especially Joseph Smith...How can one separate the man from his work?
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 I'm not sure that anyone wants to. I was just making a point that you can't come to the Father through Jesus alone; since you have to believe JS was a prophet.
Setheus Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 You are so busy stairing at that tree in front of you that you are not seeing the forest that you are standing in the middle of. By following the prophets (namely JS) you are only following JC because JS is ordained by JC to give us JC's law. So from your narrow point of view one could go back in time and have the same argument about Moses and the 10 commandments. Thats like the old Jews saying, "We won't enter the covenant because we have to go through Moses and the commandments he gave us to get to Heaven...". Do you see? Do you see how Moses and JS play very simular roles and how they do NOT negate the "Only through the Son" doctrine? How can I make this anymore clear?
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Setheus, I understand your point. I just don't agree with it. That's what keeps this world from being boring!
Setheus Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Not to sound harsh and I mean no animosity by this....but, will that be your reply at the veil? "I didn't want the world to be boring" ?? "Thats why I didn't believe in your doctrine sent to me from heaven by your servants."
Guest Starsky Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 I stated:I wonder if you couldn't start putting out true facts about the church instead of all the 'proven' wrong facts that you have gotten off the anti-sites...It really shows you haven't really studied anything out yourself...you are just parrotting junk...I mean JUNK....that has no basis in fact. Shanstress stated:We all know that facts are not what religion is about. We are simply stating our beliefs and discussing them. If facts abounded, there would be no debate, and we would theoretically all belong to the same church. Sometimes, I really don't know why any of us even bother! As far as anti sites, I'm not sure what you're speaking of. I just made a statement that you have to believe that JS was a prophet in order to be baptized; hence not coming to the Father through Jesus alone. This isn't something I need to get from an anti site. I personally was asked this question. I say: Getting to heaven is through Christ...and you know that...we don't go through Joseph Smith. That doesn't diminish the importance of believing he was a true prophet who was instrumental in the restoration of the priesthood....and doctrines thereof...you confuse the two issues and make them as one. Christ is who saves us...and opens the doors to heaven...none come to the Father except through Christ..... Joseph was His prophet....and did His works....one must believe that he was a prophet in order to accept the work he did for the Lord....without the work that JosephSmith did in restoring the priesthood keys....none can enter into exaltation....until they have accepted his work....because it is through his work....that those who don't believe here will get the chance to accept it in the next life.But that doesn't put him in the same catagory as Christ....it means that you believe he is a prophet....not Savior.....It is very simple...yet you don't seem to be able to grasp it...I said: IOW you have to change from the focus of my point....because it hit the mark... This is so not true, it's laughable. I just chose not to reply to you because it is not worth my time. You tend to have very emotional posts. Guess I had a change of heart.I thought you would be nice to me from now on, since we righted our wrongs. And I have honored the request from the PM you sent me. Don't get so angry because we have different beliefs. I haven't said anything rude or hateful, have I? And please, whatever you do, don't call me a bad penny! I felt that your posts were slamming and emotional...so I responded in kind...I don't mind having friends with different beliefs....but I don't expect they are going to come to my turf and slam my beliefs. My next door neighbor is an exed mormon....she is bitter about her experiences....but she doesn't bring them to my door. We are, infact, best friends...we shop, chat, share lunches, and help each other any way we can....that kind of relationship I can handle...with non-members and even anti-mormons...If you want to continue a relationship with me on that level....that would be great. Infact I was just thinking about you little boy while I was shopping in Walmart today...and was wondering how he was doing.... and wishing that you hadn't turned so hateful towards the church and it's members....that you were really a nice person...aside from this. I said: Why should believing in the prophet who started the church be a wrong thing? That is just crazy...It's not wrong, per say. I just don't believe it. I was replying to a point made by Lindy: "Jesus IS the only way to salvation...to the Father...I don't get where you think that mormons believe that mormonism is the only way to the Father."I don't believe that Mormons truly believe or teach this, and I was offering evidence to support that. Is it really 'crazy'? It is okay not to believe....believe how you want....but don't expect people not to respond with emotion when you are addressing THEIR beliefs.I explained above how Jesus is the WAY, the ONLY WAY....to gain salvation. Joseph Smith only restored the priesthood and temple ordinances so that we could obtain what Christ has made available to everyone on some level....Yes we know Joseph Smith's work was necessary....All the prophets works were necessary...or we wouldn't even have a bible....Some would have us believe that the Bible is made up....that there really weren't any prophets at all.....but I know differently....I know they are necessary and are real and that their works were the Lord's work through them....and Joseph Smith was one of HIS prophets.
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 I'm truly sorry that I made you so angry, Starsky. That really wasn't my intent. Unfortunately, when people talk about their differences, one can see ugliness where it was not intended. Just a guess, but you and your friend who is an ex-Mormon probably don't discuss things as openly as we do here on this board. My son is doing great, thanks! He is about 20 months old now, and VERY active. He is lots of fun and we're enjoying him bunches. I sincerely hope your family is doing well.
Guest Starsky Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Thanks Shanstress. Yeah...me and my neighbor do sometimes discuss things about the church....but we have alot in common, as I have been as abused as she was....in the church ... But ... when we come to an impass in doctrine or church history, we just drop it...and go shopping or something fun. :) 20 month olds are a bundle of fun...enjoy...they do grow up...(but you can enjoy that too. )
Tr2 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 I think I'll just lurk for the rest of this thread, but it is quite alarming how much some of you rely on a human being who is no more special than you are.
Guest Peace Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 8 2004, 12:19 PM I think I'll just lurk for the rest of this thread, but it is quite alarming how much some of you rely on a human being who is no more special than you are. Who says we rely on Joseph Smith...he is dead.We rely upon the work he did through Christ...just as we rely upon the Bible prophet's works...
Ray Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 8 2004, 10:26 AM I'm not sure that anyone wants to. I was just making a point that you can't come to the Father through Jesus alone; since you have to believe JS was a prophet. Heh, there are about 12 million people on this Earth right now who are members of the Church, and you can be assured that most of them want to be.And one more thing, when Jesus said that nobody can come to the Father but through Him, He meant that nobody can come to the Father other than through Him, or unless it is through Him. But our Lord doesn’t do everything Himself, alone. Our Lord appoints people to work for Him, and when those people whom He has chosen act under His authority and direction, their actions are regarded as if they were done by our Lord Himself. Thus, if Joseph Smith was a prophet of our Lord, acting under the authority and direction of our Lord, (and I state that He was), then refusing to accept Joseph Smith is the same as refusing to accept one of our Lord’s authorized representatives, which is the same as refusing to accept the authority and direction of Jesus Christ Himself.Btw, nobody should assume they have our Lord’s authority to act in His name, just as nobody should assume that they’ll be admitted into heaven.P.s. By the time I finished writing this I saw that Setheus had already made many of the same points, and you seemed to understand, Shanstress, but hopefully I have added at least a thought or two that you find worthy of consideration.
Tr2 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Who says we rely on Joseph Smith...he is dead.We rely upon the work he did through Christ...just as we rely upon the Bible prophet's works...Come on now, peace. the dependence some mormons have on this man is unhealthy. At best, he was a flawed man. Now I don't hold him to the likes of David or Moses, but I also see those men as who they really are, flawed human beings. A question: Can I get to the good heaven (I know you folks have more than one) without acknowledging Joseph smith as a prophet of God?
Ray Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 8 2004, 11:33 AM Quote Who says we rely on Joseph Smith...he is dead.We rely upon the work he did through Christ...just as we rely upon the Bible prophet's works...Come on now, peace. the dependence some mormons have on this man is unhealthy. At best, he was a flawed man. Now I don't hold him to the likes of David or Moses, but I also see those men as who they really are, flawed human beings. A question: Can I get to the good heaven (I know you folks have more than one) without acknowledging Joseph smith as a prophet of God? Heh, the answer to your question lies within, TR2. :)
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Ray+Jun 8 2004, 01:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Jun 8 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jun 8 2004, 10:26 AM I'm not sure that anyone wants to. I was just making a point that you can't come to the Father through Jesus alone; since you have to believe JS was a prophet. Heh, there are about 12 million people on this Earth right now who are members of the Church, and you can be assured that most of them want to be. No Ray, you misunderstood me. I was replying to someone else's post with, "I'm not sure that anyone wants to." Starsky said that she doesn't understand why someone would want to be baptized if they didn't believe JS was the prophet. That was my response.I know the church has 12 million members - most of them happy.
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Setheus@Jun 8 2004, 12:49 PM Not to sound harsh and I mean no animosity by this....but, will that be your reply at the veil? "I didn't want the world to be boring" ?? "Thats why I didn't believe in your doctrine sent to me from heaven by your servants." Not to sound harsh, but I think Joseph Smith was a false prophet.I'll stop right there since you can say ugly things and no one will mind; whereas if I say something ugly, I will be jumped on by a dozen or so people.Just as much as you think I'm wrong, I think you're wrong.
shanstress70 Posted June 8, 2004 Report Posted June 8, 2004 Quote Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 8 2004, 01:33 PM A question: Can I get to the good heaven (I know you folks have more than one) without acknowledging Joseph smith as a prophet of God? If you read the last page or so, you'll see we already went through all of that.
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