Becoming Gods? Is this true?

[VisionOfLehi]

In my my understanding, we do use the terms "god" and "goddess", but it's always emphasized that these are not capitalized. For me, it's just a term we use to signify those that have reached the highest degree of glory attainable in Heaven. Those who would wear the "crowns" in Heaven. If you know about our beliefs, we do believe there is more than one kingdom of Heaven ( Bible Dictionary: Degrees of Glory )

If you look at these scriptures, all from the Holy Bible, I think it'll clarify what we mean by becoming "gods and goddesses"

Romans 8

2 Timothy 4

1 Peter 5

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/7#7

Although I am sure there might be more to it, and perhaps more to traditional ideas.

[a-train]

Can anyone refresh my memory and tell me what verse tells us that men can 'become gods'? I can think of some that say men 'are gods', but I am unable to remember any verse that says men can 'become gods'.

I have heard much talk from the brethren about becoming like Heavenly Father, becoming like God, becoming as God or as gods, but what do we have that tells us we are not gods now but we have the potential to become gods?

-a-train

[Dr T]

good question "A+" Train :)

[VisionOfLehi]

Do you believe the concept of Eternal Progression is a Christian belief?

Before he answers that... What do you think our idea of Eternal Progression is?

[Malachi7]

Before he answers that... What do you think our idea of Eternal Progression is?

Based upon answers in this thread, and based upon what I've gleaned from a few websites which are critical of the LDS religon, and from what I've gleaned from the LDS manual Achieving a Celestial Marriage, the short story becomes men becoming exalted, physical Gods (gods, deity) occupying time and space where they'll procreate spirit-children with a celestial mate (or mates: D&C 132) where the spirit-children will follow the same path that their parents did in becoming deity themselves by obedience to the laws, ordinances and principles described by the LDS church for the governance of this Second Estate (or mortal probation.)

How'd I do?

Volumes can be (and have been written) and much could be added, but that sums it up, I guess.

P.S. Oh, and only Mormons will achieve it, or as Spencer W. Kimball puts it in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, earn it.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Not all Mormons will achieve it either we have to live worthily and endure to the end.

[skalenfehl]

a-train I don't believe there is any scripture that says men can 'become gods', but there are several in the D&C that say men can 'become sons of God'. Only in Psalms and John do we read word for word that men are gods. Perhaps you read this in discourses of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, etc?

D&C 34:3

D&C 35:2

D&C 45:8

[Malachi7]

Not all Mormons will achieve it either we have to live worthily and endure to the end.

Understood.

Telestial, Terrestrial and Outer Darkness.

On a lighter note, some Mormons have told me that my fate will most likely be the Terrestrial Kingdom as I'm an "okay guy" (for an "anti-Mormon," that is.)

If that's the case then I think I'm in a better place than you are because I can enjoy coffee all my life if I want to and still go to the same place you might be going. <wink>

[skalenfehl]

Actually outer darkness or perdition is reserved for those who have "denied the Spirit" (the likes of Cain, who spoke with God and still denied Him).

While the Telestial, Terrestrial and Celestial are all degrees of glory and in a sense salvations, none save the Celestial Kingdom allow us to progress eternally, therefore in a sense "damnation" or "stopping" as a dam would stop the flow of water in its natural course. Just my little analogy.

So yes, being a Mormon is no guarantee. We have to continually keep all the commandments, covenants and endure to the end.

[WillowTheWhisp]

If that's the case then I think I'm in a better place than you are because I can enjoy coffee all my life if I want to and still go to the same place you might be going. <wink>

I can remember thinking exactly the same thing once too. That was an awful long time ago.

[skalenfehl]

That reminds me of an experience my dad had once when I was a kid. Apparently someone at work exclaimed, "I'm halfway there," referring to getting into heaven. My dad replied in jest, "what if you die tomorrow?"

[Dr T]

That's the thing we all need to consider. What if we all die tomorrow? 100% is the expectation. I'm secure because of Jesus-not me. I think that is the only way.

[skalenfehl]

Indeed. We should live every day like it is our last. We should strive every day to live the commandments and keep our covenants; enduring to the end.

[Francine]

Actually outer darkness or perdition is reserved for those who have "denied the Spirit" (the likes of Cain, who spoke with God and still denied Him).

How did Cain deny God, if he felt so strongly about his grain offering that he killed Abel when God denied Cain? A denial of God would have entailed indifference about the offering, not a passion to please God.

[a-train]

Cain had little passion to please God. His efforts were not to please the LORD, but to secure personal gain. Those Mormons who pay their tithes and offerings with only the hope of personal wealth will find their efforts vain and unrewarding.

It was NOT the mite by which the widow cast into the treasury all that she had, but it was with all her heart, and with all her soul, and with all her strength, and with all her mind that she accomplished this great feat.

The sons of perdition do not seek to please God, but seek to enjoy the gluttony of unrighteous dominion through deception and violence. These know God and openly reject His precepts. They ask not whether there be any God, nor are they indifferent with respect to His commandments, they knowingly rebel against Him and seek to destroy the righteous.

They are the children of him whom they follow, the Father of Lies.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Cain did not make an offering faithfully or according to the Lord's commandment. Offerings were a similitude of Christ's ultimate sacrifice (firstling of flock, unspotted, etc). Further events led to his final fate, especially when he entered into a covenant with Satan to murder and get gain, etc. Below is a link that briefly shows some references.

LINK

[Flyonthewall]

a-train I don't believe there is any scripture that says men can 'become gods', but there are several in the D&C that say men can 'become sons of God'. Only in Psalms and John do we read word for word that men are gods. Perhaps you read this in discourses of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, etc?

D&C 34:3

D&C 35:2

D&C 45:8

I don't know about you but for me, this spells it out plainly for me.

Romans 8

14 For as many as are aled by the bSpirit of God, they are the csons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of abondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of badoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; aheirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we bsuffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

[Malachi7]

I don't know about you but for me, this spells it out plainly for me.

Romans 8

14 For as many as are aled by the bSpirit of God, they are the csons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of abondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of badoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth awitness with our bspirit, that we are the cchildren of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; aheirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we bsuffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

It makes sense that you would see things that way when viewed through LDS teachings. But without such teachings superimposed upon the text, however, the Bible speaks on its own.

The spirit of adoption by which we call out to God is that of being "born again" unto eternal life and being saved from eternal separation from God. Heaven. Hell. That's all, folks. It's about being adopted into the family of God. Being saved.

LDS theology, however, would have us believe that being sons and daughters of God means to be literally born of celestial offspring, i.e. God and Mother God.

Christianity knows nothing of heavenly Mother. It's a uniquely LDS concept that Jesus, Satan and all of us were born in the "preexistence" as spirit-children who took on tabernacles of flesh and bone to learn of LDS ordinances so that we too might become Gods in our own right.

[Snow]

God's church is found all over the world in Methodists, Evangelicals, Baptists, etc. I don't accept your claim that the LDS church is the only true church.

That's an opinion but hardly a rebuttal. If you have evidence that God has authorized such all over the world to act in his name, you would post it instead of opining it.

"They neither marry nor are given in marriage."

And... your point?

That could very well be true but it hardly says that those that are sealed in this life, on this earth for time and all eternity have to seperate once they die. It simply refers to marrying and giving in marriage.

Do you have any verses that actually address the subject?

Spirits don't have physical bodies. God is spirit only. John 4:24 and Luke 24:39.

You are misquoting/misstating the bible - deliberately I think. John does not say that God is ONLY spirit and you incorrectly claimed. It says that God is spirit. I agree. God is spirit or a spirit. That does not preclude God from having a body. That God had a body was believe and taught by the ancient Jews and early Christians. The verse you referred to not only says that God is spirit, but that those that worship in spirit. You, a person, have both a body and a spirit. Are we to assume, as your point implies that your spirit must leave your body to worship God? Hardly.

The secone verse in Luke you posted CONTRADICTS the point you are trying to make. It clearly says that God - the resurrected Christ, has a physical body of flesh and bone. You would have us believe that the resurrected God's body did not exist in space time, but the bible says otherwise. The resurrected Christ was in Israel and was seen and felt by his disciples.

Does Christ have spirit-children too?

I wouldn't know.

Snow, I've read every word and it's obvious we'll never convince each other. I'll just settle for asking what Mormons believe and why. You told me.

I disagree, in theory. If you provided fact or evidence that I am mistaken, I'd change my mind. You've provided none of that, you've only said you disagree and I wouldn't dispute what the bible says just because someone is of a different opinion.

May I ask this: where are these things taught? In Sunday School (priesthood lessons?) at your wards?

You've brought up a lot of topics. Some is taught in Sunday School, some discussed over the pulpit, some not taught at all but generally understood from writings of early LDS leaders or scholarly inquiry.

[Malachi7]

<snip>... If you provided fact or evidence that I am mistaken, I'd change my mind.

Now THAT made me laugh! Thanks, I needed that.

Snow, may I ask you to consider admitting that nothing I can ever say will change your mind one bit.

You've brought up a lot of topics. Some is taught in Sunday School, some discussed over the pulpit, some not taught at all but generally understood from writings of early LDS leaders or scholarly inquiry.

Ah, gotcha. It just comes from being LDS and being faithful and studious. Thanks.

[Snow]

Christianity knows nothing of heavenly Mother. It's a uniquely LDS concept that Jesus, Satan and all of us were born in the "preexistence" as spirit-children who took on tabernacles of flesh and bone to learn of LDS ordinances so that we too might become Gods in our own right.

That's an UNTRUE statement.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ understand that their is a Heavenly Mother and we are Christian. A true statement would be that some Christians are unaware of such - specifically, in our opinion, those Christians that aren't led by a living prophet who receives revelation from God.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It's a uniquely LDS concept that Jesus, Satan and all of us were born in the "preexistence" as spirit-children who took on tabernacles of flesh and bone to learn of LDS ordinances so that we too might become Gods in our own right.

The pre=existence is referred to in the Bible so how can other churches deny it?

Job 38:7, Jer 1:5, John 9:2, Eph 1:4, Rev 12:7 to name a few.

[Malachi7]

That's an UNTRUE statement.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ understand that their is a Heavenly Mother and we are Christian. A true statement would be that some Christians are unaware of such - specifically, in our opinion, those Christians that aren't led by a living prophet who receives revelation from God.

My statement looks fine to me.

Christianity as a whole knows nothing of a heavenly Mother, i.e. "God's wife."

It's more a uniquely LDS belief that God and Mother procreated Jesus and Satan and all of us as spirit-brothers in what's known as the preexistence. I'm aware that Mormons believe it.

Can sincerity of belief create truth?

[Snow]

My statement looks fine to me.

Christianity as a whole knows nothing of a heavenly Mother, i.e. "God's wife."

It's a demonstrably FALSE statement. Since The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian, some of Christianity knows something of it. It's a simple math question.

Can sincerity of belief create truth?

Feel free to disprove our beliefs. What actual proof do you have that disputes our beliefs?

Up till last night you were completely unaware of the pervasive teaching of divination in Christianity. I don't imagine you have knowledge that disproves any LDS doctrine.

[Dr T]

Since The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian, some of Christianity knows something of it.

this premise must first be defined and shown accurate before the validity of the statment can be measured.