"True and Living Church"

[Misshalfway]

A threat to what??

[WillowTheWhisp]

My original question was not "why doesn't the rest of the world believe what I believe?" My question is "why do some become so very offended because I do?"

This is something my husband can't understand either and he isn't even LDS bu tit baffles him why so many people seek to discredit us instead of just letting us be and getting on with their own thing.

[WANDERER]

A threat to what?? quote :Miss Halfway

Good question? If I picked a church out of the multi-denominational hat and said it was the only true and living church what would be your response. Great, I'll go with that...who cares, everyone should be allowed to do their own thing, I don't object to people telling me this at all, in fact, please drop by and visit my home and let me know this on my weekends...? What would be your Bishop's response on how to deal with that?

I'm just playing 'devil's advocate' here (not literally, but honestly considering why people do respond in the way they do). Free agency to respond to that as I believe it or don't believe it is basically what happens. If I made a general statement on anything in life..."this is true and nothing else is: eggs are bad for you" I'd be prepared for debate and a few egg extremists.

Okay, living with the difficulties of a belief statement like only true and living church...difficult but also character building I guess...and something to live up to.

There are boundaries of human decency people shouldn't cross and I get what you are saying about some people's responses.

Edit: I guess the other thought is could the whole world be like Utah? What would one true and only church look like? Where is your comfort level on that. Yes, I know, it's a far-fetched way of thinking, but people do this. Now we do know what one majority church has looked like for Christianity in the past...so I guess it's a deep response to that.

[Misshalfway]

A threat to what?? quote :Miss Halfway

Good question? If I picked a church out of the multi-denominational hat and said it was the only true and living church what would be your response. Great, I'll go with that...who cares, everyone should be allowed to do their own thing, I don't object to people telling me this at all, in fact, please drop by and visit my home and let me know this on my weekends...? What would be your Bishop's response on how to deal with that?

I'm just playing 'devil's advocate' here (not literally, but honestly considering why people do respond in the way they do). Free agency to respond to that as I believe it or don't believe it is basically what happens. If I made a general statement on anything in life..."this is true and nothing else is: eggs are bad for you" I'd be prepared for debate and a few egg extremists.

Okay, living with the difficulties of a belief statement like only true and living church...difficult but also character building I guess...and something to live up to.

There are boundaries of human decency people shouldn't cross and I get what you are saying about some people's responses.

Edit: I guess the other thought is could the whole world be like Utah? What would one true and only church look like? Where is your comfort level on that. Yes, I know, it's a far-fetched way of thinking, but people do this. Now we do know what one majority church has looked like for Christianity in the past...so I guess it's a deep response to that.

Missionary work. Ah yes. Annoying to some? Perhaps. But I guess I was under the impression that the Christian community shared our belief in spreading the word. So in that way, the effort shouldn't be much of a surprise. There is an easy fix. Don't answer the door. When baptists witness at my door, I don't go to my stash of anti literature and give them a copy. KWIM? We part hopefully respecting one another. I don't feel a threat. Show me the threat.

[WANDERER]

...along the lines of it doesn't make me feel threatened, so why do other people feel threatened ...they just do. What to do about it?

[Misshalfway]

I have a question for you PC. Or anyone else, I guess. If you don't mind of course...... It is fine if you choose not to answer. I hope you see the question as sincere and not contentious. It is just that I have always wanted to ask, and never really had the chance or the courage. So... I am asking today with my knees a knockin'.

Joseph Smith, as you pointed out before, saw the diversity in the Christian community of his time. I see the diversity in doctrine and practice today. Pick a subject.... any subject and I can probably share an experience where I met someone who professed to be a Christain but didn't believe in the Trinity or didn't believe baptism was necessary or whatever. How does the Christian community reconcile the differences within itself? It hasn't always been a peaceful exchange. Perhaps now there is some kind of cease fire? I am just wondering how one is to choose if the churches don't share the same name or even hold the name of Jesus Christ in the title. What about faith healing churches and snake dancing and communion and the bible (KJV or NIV or Gideon's)?

Pretend for a moment that I am not LDS. How would a person, searching for the truth, recognize Jesus Christ's church if it is named after a man or a city? How would one determine whether it is the Methodists or the Presbyterians or the Catholics? And if they are all ok, then why do i hear and see so many different ways to worship? And if that circumstance is what the new testament advocated, then why were the Apostles traveling and righting letters to correct the misdirections of the different groups?

I met one gentleman that felt that everyone who was not Christian would go to hell. Is that true? And if it is true, is it ok for me to believe in the Greek Orthodox church even though it is drastically different from the Methodist? Would I still find salvation if I believed in Christ but felt that I must go to confession to be forgiven? Are there lines in the sand that your community has drawn? Who determines those lines?

I won't be offended by your response. I promise. I just want to understand the mind of an Evangelical. You can even tell me that I might go to Hell. It is all good! I am just curious. I am very familiar with Joseph's way of answering the question. What is yours?

[prisonchaplain]

The truth is that it is perfectly fine with me that the Christian establishment doesn't think LDS people believe in Jesus Christ. It baffles me, but it doesn't offend me.

Of course you believe in Jesus Christ. And, of course, he is the person described in the New Testament. What "the establishment" is arguing is that your beliefs about the nature of Jesus Christ are so different from those of the establishment that they must be considered heresy (wrong teaching of a serious degree).

Why does the Christian world care so much what we say?

Because you call yourself Christians, your church bares the name of Jesus, and because you evangelize from our churches.

So we believe in modern revelation. So we believe we have priesthood authority. So what? If you believe that we don't, and if indeed we truly don't (which is what I assume you believe), wouldn't our presence in the world be fairly benign?

See it from our view a bit more. We do not believe in 2nd chances after death. You are obviously hungry for God and Jesus. Yet, from the establishment perspective, you've slipped into heresy. Just as Jesus went after the lost sheep, is it not our duty to try to bring you back? If the heresy is serious enough, your souls may be in jeapordy? Do we not owe it to you to present the best case we can for the Christianity of history--for the view of church history that says there was no Great Apostasy--it is yet to come?

BTW, we do offer the same courtesy to Muslims, to Jews, to Buddhists, to college students, to so many groups through targeted missions. Despite the plethora of "antis," the established church has put precious little effort into "LDS evangelism." Most of the full-timers (the Tanners, the late Walter Martin, etc.) were self-appointed, and raised support after establishing their organizations themselves.

If I might borrow DS's analogy for a minute. If it is indeed a question of flavor, then why would someone allow themselves to care so much that I think vanilla is best? Why attack it? Why seek to destroy it? Why move to discredit it? Why make up lies about it to slander it? What is so threatening? Why say that I am arrogant? Couldn't I say other groups are offensive by discounting the validity of my faith? If you know your faith is correct, then it is correct! All the descending votes in the world couldn't change that, right? So why become offended?

Because, if I'm wrong, your theology sends me to the Terrestial Kingdom, to live forever with Jesus. If you're wrong, and the heresy is serious enough, according to traditional theology, you may end up in no heavenly kingdom at all. So, it's not a matter of flavors--it's a matter of eternal life and death.

I've made this analogy before, but it bares repeating: Orthodox Jews hate Jews for Jesus with a passion. They accuse them of being worse than pretenders, and of engaging in spiritual genocide. Why? Because they believe that Jesus was a false prophet, and that Christianity is idolatry. They are fine to leave Christians alone--until they claim to be "completed Jews" "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Jews." In Orthodoxy's view you cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. Christian orthodoxy may not be nearly so strong in it's assessment of LDS (well, some segments are), but there is great concern that combining the seeming polytheism of your faith, the belief that God was once human, that humans are eternal in their essence, that the Bible is somewhat flawed due to translation errors, that modern prophets words are equal to Scripture...that such a combination of beliefs are outside the realm of Christian teaching.

Forgive me for thinking out loud...... I hope you all can see my intensions as peaceful.... I understand how passions can get stirred up. I suppose....as sad as that is to me.... that it is human nature and may be my nature on the right day of the month.

My original question was not "why doesn't the rest of the world believe what I believe?" My question is "why do some become so very offended because I do?"

How do you feel when the fundamentalists (who continue to practice polygamy, and who claim to have priesthood authority that SLC has lost due to its apostacy) claim to be the true inheritors of Joseph Smith's restoration of the gospel? Maybe you are fine with it. But, I'm guessing many LDS are mightily offended by such claims.

Maybe what I am really trying to say is that we waste so much energy becoming offended. It is destructive and purposeless and it divides us unnecessarily. Christ didn't come to condemn.... He came to fulfill. He wanted our hearts knit together as one. Yet, his presence caused many to become offended. So, perhaps it is to be expected. I am just sorry to see it when it happens.

First, some of the angriest most ridiculous anti-LDS protestors deserve no explanation or defense. They are simply foolish, and have been poisoned by self-righteousness and pride.

On the other hand, Jesus got angry at the very religious, very well-behaved (on the surface) Pharisees. I'm not suggesting that the LDS are modern Pharisees. Their problem was they had absolutely lost their focus. They preferred the letter of the law to the Spirit.

Then there is this obvious fact: some people are not adept at handling controversial conversations. They find it hard to disagree politely, and instead become frustrated. This can be hightened when someone is not very knowledgeable about their own faith, and so use anger to cover a lack of confidence.

In any case, Miss Halfway, you are not in the least bit offensive, and most of the LDS posters here are knowledgeable, patient and kind. I hope I return the favor.

[WANDERER]

PC, I don't think that people are all that informed about LDS beliefs...

quote: polytheism of your faith, the belief that God was once human, that humans are eternal in their essence, that the Bible is somewhat flawed due to translation errors, that modern prophets words are equal to Scripture

all this is new to me. Edit: Including true and living church.

[Iggy]

See it from our view a bit more. We do not believe in 2nd chances after death. You are obviously hungry for God and Jesus. Yet, from the establishment perspective, you've slipped into heresy. Just as Jesus went after the lost sheep, is it not our duty to try to bring you back? If the heresy is serious enough, your souls may be in jeapordy? Do we not owe it to you to present the best case we can for the Christianity of history--for the view of church history that says there was no Great Apostasy--it is yet to come?

That is judging and convicting us. We don't do that to other faiths. We don't convict them and say that what they believe is heresy, or that they are going to everlasting hell.

Never has the LDS Church blasted another faith. Never has the LDS Church taught its members to blast another person because they believed differently than us. Never has the LDS Church made a film that blasted another faith.

Yet that is what other faiths do to us. They spend untold dollars making films blasting us. Now is that any way to go about saving souls???

We do not force anyone to join our church. AGENCY It all boils down to ALL of Gods children have agency. I do believe the LDS Church is the first to stress that to the highest degree.

[WANDERER]

Other faiths or individuals from faiths out of their own agency?

[WANDERER]

While I've only ever heard of 'one true faith' in reference to the Morman church in the past month and been a bit surprised: I've been reading some of the comments from the Salt Lake Tribune articles (from the news links on this site to the missionary incident regarding the statues). It's all very sad reading the comments that people have made to each other about this and that. Not really into it...something to give a wide berth.

[Misshalfway]

Of course you believe in Jesus Christ. And, of course, he is the person described in the New Testament. What "the establishment" is arguing is that your beliefs about the nature of Jesus Christ are so different from those of the establishment that they must be considered heresy (wrong teaching of a serious degree).

Ok. So, we believe Jesus is the son of God, the Savior of the world and creator of the world, who came to an earthy ministry and died on the cross and overcame sin and death so the people could find salvation. How is that so different from the general beliefs of the Christian world? I know you all don't think he came to America. I know some of you believe in the Trinity. I respect that difference. It is what you have been taught. Why wouldn't you see it that way? But who gives you the right to decide who is a Christian and who isn't? Why do you get to take away a label that means so much to me? Again, I am not offended because the phenom happens. It just baffles me. Disagree. But don't condemn

Because you call yourself Christians, your church bares the name of Jesus, and because you evangelize from our churches.

I am sorry PC. But why can't I call myself a Christian if I believe the man existed and is diety? And "evangelize" from your churches? When? Where? How? Street corners, commercials, visitor centers, doorsteps...... but your churches?? You make it sound like we are busting down your doors.

Despite the plethora of "antis," the established church has put precious little effort into "LDS evangelism."

I am sorry. I just don't understand this statement. Perhaps we do things differently than you. And what we do accomplish, seems to bother you. Hmmmmm....... You are happy for your "Christian" neighbors who gain numbers or have successful soup kitchens -- even though the name of their church is different that yours. Are you just as happy for the LDS converts -- people who have discovered the Atoning blood of the Savior? How about our humanitarian efforts?

Because, if I'm wrong, your theology sends me to the Terrestial Kingdom, to live forever with Jesus. If you're wrong, and the heresy is serious enough, according to traditional theology, you may end up in no heavenly kingdom at all. So, it's not a matter of flavors--it's a matter of eternal life and death.

Frankly I like my view better. It is more compassionate. The God I know and the Savior I know are compassionate and understand the deepest parts of an individual. That is where I feel like your doctrine is heretical and earthly. That is Ok. We see it differently. You think I will go to Hell. I think God will judge you however he will judge you. No need for offense. Just two different ways of understanding it.

I've made this analogy before, but it bares repeating: Orthodox Jews hate Jews for Jesus with a passion. They accuse them of being worse than pretenders, and of engaging in spiritual genocide. Why? Because they believe that Jesus was a false prophet, and that Christianity is idolatry. They are fine to leave Christians alone--until they claim to be "completed Jews" "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Jews." In Orthodoxy's view you cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. Christian orthodoxy may not be nearly so strong in it's assessment of LDS (well, some segments are), but there is great concern that combining the seeming polytheism of your faith, the belief that God was once human, that humans are eternal in their essence, that the Bible is somewhat flawed due to translation errors, that modern prophets words are equal to Scripture...that such a combination of beliefs are outside the realm of Christian teaching.

I have no use for this analogy. The offenses taken between these groups illustrate the same myopic offensives I am objecting to in this thread. Whether they are inside your "box" or outside, I still see no need for the anger and hatred that such disagreements inspire. And Just as a side note, I believe that the Jews will some day come to a knowledge of the Savior.... as will the rest of the earth. And so I am patient, not intolerant.

How do you feel when the fundamentalists (who continue to practice polygamy, and who claim to have priesthood authority that SLC has lost due to its apostacy) claim to be the true inheritors of Joseph Smith's restoration of the gospel? Maybe you are fine with it. But, I'm guessing many LDS are mightily offended by such claims.

Oh PC, I don't care what they believe. I believe they misdirected. They think we got misdirected. It is the same story of the ages with different faces and circumstances. And for the record, our relationship with these splinter groups is a peaceful one. God will judge them. God will judge me! I am grateful that I don't have to worry about judging anyone. If I tried, I would fail miserably.

I have said it and others have said it -- Joseph Smith himself taught that the Spirit of God is throughout the earth and inside of each individual. The Spirit can and does testify of truth whenever, and wherever , and with whomever is open to the inspiration. If you were to leave your church today, and become LDS, not one piece of your spiritual experience would be discounted. It would only be added to you breadth and depth of understanding and wisdom. I find it interesting and sad really, that you insist on believing the alternate and inaccurate story that the LDS thinks it is the only place where the Spirit is born. I literally shake my head. But perhaps you and others need that story....... because our story appears so threatening to you, that you need the incomplete version to help yourself feel more right.

Take the church or leave it. Why one would waste their energy and spiritual inclination on such lies and contentions? I just don't think it is how the Savior would have our natures to be. I find it ironic and confusing that the individuals who profess the Saviors name, are the same who find the audacious authority to condemn me. An evaluation of any church or religion or creed is the work of the individual. It is "your" life. Do with it what you choose. I will do the same. My church will continue to invite and I will continue to hope that folks like you would come to believe as I do. But without force and without condemnation and offense and distain.

I know. Humans are humans. I know, because I am one of them. The invitation of the Lord doesn't lessen itself because humans are flawed. It invites men to love each other. To allow each other to worship according to conscience. We are instructed to invite and serve and bless and comfort. That is our work among the children of men. Becoming offended is the weakness of the individual. It is not justified because two parties disagree. And it is not a reflection of the argument or circumstance, but a reflection of the character of the individual. You may look into my nature PC, and most certainly you will find flaws. It wouldn't take you long to find them. But frankly, I want God to decide my heart. Not a church.

[Misshalfway]

Of course you believe in Jesus Christ. And, of course, he is the person described in the New Testament. What "the establishment" is arguing is that your beliefs about the nature of Jesus Christ are so different from those of the establishment that they must be considered heresy (wrong teaching of a serious degree).

Ok. So, we believe Jesus is the son of God, the Savior of the world and creator of the world, who came to an earthy ministry and died on the cross and overcame sin and death so the people could find salvation. How is that so different from the general beliefs of the Christian world? I know you all don't think he came to America. I know some of you believe in the Trinity. I respect that difference. It is what you have been taught. Why wouldn't you see it that way? But who gives you the right to decide who is a Christian and who isn't? Why do you get to take away a label that means so much to me? Again, I am not offended because the phenom happens. It just baffles me. Disagree. But don't condemn

Because you call yourself Christians, your church bares the name of Jesus, and because you evangelize from our churches.

I am sorry PC. But why can't I call myself a Christian if I believe the man existed and is diety? And "evangelize" from your churches? When? Where? How? Street corners, commercials, visitor centers, doorsteps...... but your churches?? You make it sound like we are busting down your doors.

Despite the plethora of "antis," the established church has put precious little effort into "LDS evangelism."

I am sorry. I just don't understand this statement. Perhaps we do things differently than you. And what we do accomplish, seems to bother you. Hmmmmm....... You are happy for your "Christian" neighbors who gain numbers or have successful soup kitchens -- even though the name of their church is different that yours. Are you just as happy for the LDS converts -- people who have discovered the Atoning blood of the Savior? How about our humanitarian efforts?

Because, if I'm wrong, your theology sends me to the Terrestial Kingdom, to live forever with Jesus. If you're wrong, and the heresy is serious enough, according to traditional theology, you may end up in no heavenly kingdom at all. So, it's not a matter of flavors--it's a matter of eternal life and death.

Frankly I like my view better. It is more compassionate. The God I know and the Savior I know are compassionate and understand the deepest parts of an individual. That is where I feel like your doctrine is heretical and earthly. That is Ok. We see it differently. You think I will go to Hell. I think God will judge you however he will judge you. No need for offense. Just two different ways of understanding it.

I've made this analogy before, but it bares repeating: Orthodox Jews hate Jews for Jesus with a passion. They accuse them of being worse than pretenders, and of engaging in spiritual genocide. Why? Because they believe that Jesus was a false prophet, and that Christianity is idolatry. They are fine to leave Christians alone--until they claim to be "completed Jews" "Jews for Jesus" or "Messianic Jews." In Orthodoxy's view you cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus. Christian orthodoxy may not be nearly so strong in it's assessment of LDS (well, some segments are), but there is great concern that combining the seeming polytheism of your faith, the belief that God was once human, that humans are eternal in their essence, that the Bible is somewhat flawed due to translation errors, that modern prophets words are equal to Scripture...that such a combination of beliefs are outside the realm of Christian teaching.

I have no use for this analogy. The offenses taken between these groups illustrate the same myopic offensives I am objecting to in this thread. Whether they are inside your "box" or outside, I still see no need for the anger and hatred that such disagreements inspire. And Just as a side note, I believe that the Jews will some day come to a knowledge of the Savior.... as will the rest of the earth. And so I am patient, not intolerant.

How do you feel when the fundamentalists (who continue to practice polygamy, and who claim to have priesthood authority that SLC has lost due to its apostacy) claim to be the true inheritors of Joseph Smith's restoration of the gospel? Maybe you are fine with it. But, I'm guessing many LDS are mightily offended by such claims.

Oh PC, I don't care what they believe. I believe they misdirected. They think we got misdirected. It is the same story of the ages with different faces and circumstances. And for the record, our relationship with these splinter groups is a peaceful one. God will judge them. God will judge me! I am grateful that I don't have to worry about judging anyone. If I tried, I would fail miserably.

I have said it and others have said it -- Joseph Smith himself taught that the Spirit of God is throughout the earth and inside of each individual. The Spirit can and does testify of truth whenever, and wherever , and with whomever is open to the inspiration. If you were to leave your church today, and become LDS, not one piece of your spiritual experience would be discounted. It would only be added to you breadth and depth of understanding and wisdom. I find it interesting and sad really, that you insist on believing the alternate and inaccurate story that the LDS thinks it is the only place where the Spirit is born. I literally shake my head. But perhaps you and others need that story....... because our story appears so threatening to you, that you need the incomplete version to help yourself feel more right.

Take the church or leave it. Why waste your energy and your spiritual inclination on such lies and contentions? I just don't think it is how the Savior would have our natures to be. I find it ironic and confusing that the individuals who profess the Saviors name, are the same who find the audacious authority to condemn me. An evaluation of any church or religion or creed is the work of the individual. It is "your" life. Do with it what you choose. I will do the same. My church will continue to invite and I will continue to hope that folks like you would come to believe as I do. But without force and without condemnation and offense and distain.

Becoming offended is the weakness of the individual. It is not justified because two parties disagree. And it is not a reflection of the argument or circumstance, but a reflection of the character of the individual. You may look into my nature PC, and most certainly you will find flaws. It wouldn't take you long to find them. But frankly, I want God to decide my heart. Not a church.

[Misshalfway]

What those two missionaries did was deplorable. It was immature and awful! And I am deeply horrified by their behavior.

Having said that..... it was the actions of two rogue individuals. It was not the actions of the church centrally.

[Misshalfway]

PC, I see in your descriptions why you disagree with LDS theology. I already know you disagree. I see that you feel a responsibility to preach the gospel as you see it. I feel that same responsibility. Anyone who reads and believes the book of Matthew would. But please explain to me, if we are so misdirected, why is the reaction not one of compassion and invitation more often? You still really haven't explained to me why others may become offended other than to say it is human nature to become offended when someone says you are wrong.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He created the earth and will judge it at the last day. He came to earth, bled and died and opened the doors of sin and death through his Atonement. He died and has risen again. Now please explain to me how these beliefs are so far from the main? Why can't I call myself a Christian? What gives you the right to decide? And for the record. I have been told to my face that I don't believe in Jesus Christ. Who would find the audacity to judge that? Why doesn't the religious community relax and let us believe in our own interpretations? It seems to do that within itself.

And PC, I have said it on this forum, others have said it... J Smith said it himself that the Spirit of the Lord is through out the earth and inside of each child of God. The Holy Spirit can and does testify of truth wherever, whenever and with whomever is in tune. If you or anyone else were to join the LDS faith today, your previous spiritual experience would not be questioned or discounted in any way. In fact, it would only serve to make you deeper and broader in your wisdom and understanding. Perhaps you need to believe an alternate story or skip over these explanations. Why? Why not understand and disagree or allow some place of mutual understanding and appreciation? It seems to me that it is easier for you and others to believe your version of my beliefs. And then use that falsehood or perhaps innocent misunderstanding to discredit and condemn. It is a behavior that doesn't in my mind demonstrate a true desire for my soul. It is a fearful and defensive response to something that is found to be so very threatening.

Again, I ask, If you are right and God is behind you, what have you to fear?

[prisonchaplain]

That is judging and convicting us. We don't do that to other faiths. We don't convict them and say that what they believe is heresy, or that they are going to everlasting hell.

Never has the LDS Church blasted another faith. Never has the LDS Church taught its members to blast another person because they believed differently than us. Never has the LDS Church made a film that blasted another faith.

Perhaps I'm helping you to see a huge worldview difference between our faiths. You do not do any of those things because of your beliefs. We all have agency, there are levels of heaven that non-LDS will inhabit, we all had a premortal existence together, it may be that after death souls may yet be redeemed to higher heavens, etc.

Most of Christianity does not believe that. There is only heaven or hell, and no opportunities for redemption after death. The only way to heaven is through Jesus, and implicit in that is knowing him (an so, knowing him truly).

So, the irony...though we do not insist on a single denomination as a gatekeeper of the gospel (Catholics may come close to that belief), we do believe that Christ and his truth are the only way.

Thus the effort to win you back to what the establishment churches see as the true gospel--the true beliefs and understandings about Christ.

IMHO, "judging" (in the Matthew 7 sense) is more about condemining individual souls as hopeless, rather than about rightly discerning true teaching.

Yet that is what other faiths do to us. They spend untold dollars making films blasting us. Now is that any way to go about saving souls???

We do not force anyone to join our church. AGENCY It all boils down to ALL of Gods children have agency. I do believe the LDS Church is the first to stress that to the highest degree.

The worst of the anti-LDS groups probably err on the side of judging and condemning. However, based on the quality of those films, I'd the accounting would not run that high. As for agency...of course...free will. I'm with you. People freely come into and go out of the truth daily.

I'm in a difficult spot here. No desire to defend the obnoxious, those who are disrespectful and sensationalistic. Rather, one of my missions in coming here is to explain, as best I can, my understanding about teachings, and also the actions of my fellow church people.

It would have been easier for me to be quiet on this particular string. I cannot help but coming across as the Devil's advocate. Nevertheless, one of my useful roles here is to try to be able to see both ways, and to help you understand 'my people,' and sometimes to help mine see where you are coming from. Knowledge is power.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, I see in your descriptions why you disagree with LDS theology. I already know you disagree. I see that you feel a responsibility to preach the gospel as you see it. I feel that same responsibility. Anyone who reads and believes the book of Matthew would. But please explain to me, if we are so misdirected, why is the reaction not one of compassion and invitation more often? You still really haven't explained to me why others may become offended other than to say it is human nature to become offended when someone says you are wrong.

First, so much of the evangelical "win the Mormons" efforts have been individual ones--not church organized. Additionally, the individuals who lead these little groups often are not that well educated in church history and theology. They are self-learners and must promote their ministries to gain support. Too often such efforts lend themselves to sensational, but shallow efforts.

Second, on an individual level, people are often passionate, but not so knowledgeable, when it comes to engaging people of other faiths. They know they are right, but find it difficult to explain themselves. But, they know this is so crucially important, so they become frustrated and angry.

Third, on sect of Christianity are called fundamentalists. They tend to see the world in God vs. Satan terms. They believe they are called to spiritual battle--to war. They war against other religions, and often against those they consider deficient within Christianity. They tend to be very negative and hostile. By way of information, the National Association of Evangelicals formed largely to brake away from this fundamentalist approach. Fundamentalists said: condemn the culture, and call the lost to join us or be condemned. Evangelicals said: engage the culture, redeem what can be redeemed, speak the truth in love, and become all things to all people so that by all means we might win a few. Sadly, evangelicals sometimes slip back into the fundamentalist mold too.

Finally, I'd suggest that there has been an improvement in the evangelical/LDS dialogue in the last 10 years or so. However, the efforts remain small-scale, and unknown to most. I've referred often to the book How Wide the Divide by Robinson (BYU) and Blomberg (Denver Seminary). Another book, The Mormon Challenge, is an evangelical critic of LDS theology--but one that is cautious in tone, and careful to acknowledge the quality of modern LDS theological work.

Personally, I try not to be angry or frustrated, and to contribute in my own small way to better, more intelligent, more loving, more christlike dialogue. This string is difficult but important. We delve into areas of offense, hurt, and passion. I pray that my explanations have not been seen as justifications of some of the very bad behavior of some of my bretheren, and that we can build upon our improving understandings and see each other more clearly.

I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He created the earth and will judge it at the last day. He came to earth, bled and died and opened the doors of sin and death through his Atonement. He died and has risen again. Now please explain to me how these beliefs are so far from the main? Why can't I call myself a Christian? What gives you the right to decide? And for the record. I have been told to my face that I don't believe in Jesus Christ. Who would find the audacity to judge that? Why doesn't the religious community relax and let us believe in our own interpretations? It seems to do that within itself. And PC, I have said it on this forum, others have said it... J Smith said it himself that the Spirit of the Lord is through out the earth and inside of each child of God. The Holy Spirit can and does testify of truth wherever, whenever and with whomever is in tune. If you or anyone else were to join the LDS faith today, your previous spiritual experience would not be questioned or discounted in any way. In fact, it would only serve to make you deeper and broader in your wisdom and understanding. Perhaps you need to believe an alternate story or skip over these explanations. Why? Why not understand and disagree or allow some place of mutual understanding and appreciation? It seems to me that it is easier for you and others to believe your version of my beliefs. And then use that falsehood or perhaps innocent misunderstanding to discredit and condemn. It is a behavior that doesn't in my mind demonstrate a true desire for my soul. It is a fearful and defensive response to something that is found to be so very threatening. Again, I ask, If you are right and God is behind you, what have you to fear?

I repeat my analogy--LDS theology denies most of the basic tenets of established Christianity--and yet claims the same name. Of course, there is no trade mark on Christianity, so, such as it is. Jews for Jesus anger the Orthodox for the same reason.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, I don't think that people are all that informed about LDS beliefs...

quote: polytheism of your faith,

As it's been explained to me, in LDS theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings, united only in purpose. In essence, three gods united for one purpose. Additionally, if we can become gods, there obviously exists more than one god.

the belief that God was once human,

There's a well-known quote by a church leader named Snow, "As man is God once was, as God is, man may become."

that humans are eternal in their essence,

Check lds.org--this is a key teaching of the church--that creation is not "out of nothing," but that we existed premortally, as intelligences.

that the Bible is somewhat flawed due to translation errors,

The relevant Article of faith says something to the effect of, "We believe the Bible as far as it is correctly translated."

that modern prophets words are equal to Scripture

It was explained to me that if a modern prophet speaks God's latest word to his people, then Scripture would, of necessity be understood in accordance with that word. By comparison, in my church, if someone utters what we call a prophetic word, it must comply with Scripture, or is deemed "of the flesh," (not from God).

all this is new to me. Edit: Including true and living church.

Well, I hope I put it out correctly, but I've come to understand the teachings this way in the couple of years I've been here.

[WillowTheWhisp]

PC I am impressed by the way you put forward your viewpoint here without belittling those who view things differently and have different beliefs.

I must admit that when I first came to this forum, believing it to be a pro-LDS forum, I was puzzled by the fact that one of the moderators is not only non LDS but in fact has some points of view which are actually opposed to the LDS viewpoint. You have pointed out that from a non-LDS point of view what we believe is seen as heresy and that it is your duty therefore to 'bring us back' - do you actually believe that our souls are in jeapordy and that it is your duty to lead us away from our errors?

See it from our view a bit more. We do not believe in 2nd chances after death. You are obviously hungry for God and Jesus. Yet, from the establishment perspective, you've slipped into heresy. Just as Jesus went after the lost sheep, is it not our duty to try to bring you back? If the heresy is serious enough, your souls may be in jeapordy? Do we not owe it to you to present the best case we can for the Christianity of history--for the view of church history that says there was no Great Apostasy--it is yet to come?

As you can probably imagine, I do believe that the Great Apostacy has already occurred because I believe that Christianity has moved far away from what was being taught by Christ during his lifetime on earth. I believe that the LDS church is Christianity restored back to what it was originally.

BTW, we do offer the same courtesy to Muslims, to Jews, to Buddhists, to college students, to so many groups through targeted missions. Despite the plethora of "antis," the established church has put precious little effort into "LDS evangelism." Most of the full-timers (the Tanners, the late Walter Martin, etc.) were self-appointed, and raised support after establishing their organizations themselves.

Are you actually saying here then that you believe it is your duty to correct the false LDS doctrines and to get us all back onto what you believe to be the true Christian path, just as you believe that Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and non-beleivers of any kind need to be 'saved'?

I do find that very worrying from a moderator on an LDS forum. This could surely give visiting investigators the impression that this forum supports non-LDS views and doctrines or confuse them as to what the LDS standpoint actually is. In that they may assume all moderators on here would be LDS.

On the one hand Heather is asking us to go all out to get a video banned from You Tube because it belittles our faith and yet her forum supports a moderator who tells us that our beliefs have 'slipped into heresy' from the point of view of his evangelical church.

I do acknowledge that there is a great deal of difference in the way the You Tube clip puts over its point and the way that you do, but at the end of they day do you not share the same view? I'm just a little puzzled by this.

Perhaps this is why I do not feel I have the right to request the removal of the You Tube video as the person who put it up (discounting possible copyright violation and all that) has as much right to have their opinion of us as you have to state your own views of LDS doctrine here on the forum.

[skalenfehl]

WillowTheWhisp, I don't think he is trying to sway us from our faith. I believe that he is explaining his own views in response to those who are asking him questions. I see nothing wrong with it.

Prisonchaplain, I must confess, you have a much greater understanding of our doctrine than the average member of the LDS church. A good number of Mormons have that level of understanding, but most, I'm afraid don't and thus their lights are kept under a bushel. The Lord has even placed our membership in condemnation in the past for this:

D&C 84: 54-61

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;

61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.

[WillowTheWhisp]

WillowTheWhisp, I don't think he is trying to sway us from our faith. I believe that he is explaining his own views in response to those who are asking him questions. I see nothing wrong with it.

I appreciate that. I am simply curious about this point of view. As a Latter-day Saint I believe that it is not possible to reach the highest level of Celestial glory without fulfilling certain criteria including being baptised by the correct priesthood authority, receiving temple endowment, being married in the temple for time and all eternity and 'enduring to the end' - the last bit is probably the hardest and just being LDS doesn't mean we are going to make it. Having the arrogant attitude of "I'm LDS, so I'm OK" is probably one of the biggest pitfalls.

Of course we want to share this with non-members so they too can have the opportunity to have what we can have. That's why we do missionary work. That's one of the reasons this forum is here and why we are asked to share our testimony and beliefs in online blogs etc isn't it?

We see non-members as having the opportunity to inherit lesser kingdoms, along with many LDS members too who don't make it to the Celestial Kingdom.

But I can also see that there are people who believe that we are deluded and that our beliefs are so far from what they see Christianity to be that they see us as damned for our heresy and they too see their role as one of missionary work to save us from our errors. They see our doctrine as heresy.

The bottom line is we can't all be right.

I've just watched a program on TV about the New Testament and gospels which didn't make it into the approved selection. There were so many different teachings and some came closer to LDS, some are so far different to anything we now know that they seem totally unChristian. They are so different. They can't all be right. There was even one guy preaching that there are 2 Gods, one of the Old Testament who is a cruel and vindictive God, and a different one of the New Testament who is kind and merciful. His views were banned as heresy. One which claimed Jesus could have felt no pain because he was God was also banned as heresy. Yet it was men who chose what the Bible would include and chose what Christian doctrine would be.

Even amongst the Protestant denominations there are many differences, baptism is one which I particularly noticed when I was searching amongst the churches. Some do not perform baptism and yet Jesus said it was a requirement, not an option.

I admire PC for the way he can put across his viewpoint without demeaning others but still query whether he regards us LDS as heretics.

[Misshalfway]

I personally think we have more in common than not.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I find I have a great deal in common with people from other religions too, not just Christianity. Having things in common doesn't mean we don't also have differences.

[Misshalfway]

Oh of course, Willow. I suppose the test is how we deal with our differences, eh?

Thank you to all of you for listening patiently to my stream of thought on this issue. And to PC who had the courage and patience to answer, I say a special thank you. I appreciate your candor and insight and respect.

[WillowTheWhisp]

How we deal with the differences I think is absolutely the key. Of course we must all believe that the choice we have personally made is the right one - otherwise we wouldn't have made that choice would we? I can't imagine that there's anyone out there who wholeheartedly follows any path or religion which they don't believe to be true.

The LDS doctrine on this of course is stated perfectly in the Articles of Faith:

"We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may."

Now if everyone believed that and acted that way we could all live in peace and harmony together couldn't we? I suppose there'd still be a bit of a dilemma though because we would still each have our own beliefs that we had made the right choice and that others hadn't and so we would feel obligated to enlighten them. That's the purpose of missionary work isn't it?

One day we will know for sure who was right and who was wrong. If we never tell people what we believe and why we believe it then they can blame us when they find out that we knew the truth and didn't share it. However if we share our beliefs and others have no wish to accept them then that is their choice and there is no fault with us then. I presume others believe the same too.

We obviously can't all convert each other because like in Joseph Smith's day there are so many teachings with so many differences and they can't all be right. That is sort of how I came to join the church.