Radical LDS?

[WANDERER]

Just wondering on how much you can fit within a group if your views are a little outside of the box.

How do church stakes manage this and how do people fit in while being a tad different without sacrificing cohesion? What are the limits and where is the line drawn?

Your stories and testimonies please.

[a-train]

Personal belief and interpretation is completely unobstructed in the Church. There can be and have indeed been cases wherein Church leaders have stepped on personal belief, but this is not the policy of the Church or the command of the LORD.

The restraints on members of the Church is in teaching doctrine and representing the Church. Those who come out in open opposition against Church leadership will be asked to cease, but if rebellion is the case, action is required.

Most wards have members who rock the boat, an activity I seem to have been born to do. There are even those who have views that are actually contrasting to the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets.

My question is this: Are we supposed to fit in?

Must all Mormons think and act the same? Did I join the Church simply for the social benefits?

Have we all had the experience of hearing the testimony of a person from a different part of the world whose views and perceptions differ drastically from our own, but they have been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost and have witnessed the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel? I can say that these testimonies strike me more poignantly than that of the common Happy Valley resident.

The obscurity from which the Church has come and from which it continues to rise is tremendous diversity.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Our doctrine is the same no matter what part of the world we live in. I have been to church in different states and different countries, but the organization is the same, the structure is the same, the principles and doctrines are all the same. The only thing that is different is the culture and the environment.

[WANDERER]

Skalenfehl...I seem to be slowly compiling a list, perhaps in error, of what is deemed unacceptable ..this is our doctrine and what we don't disagree on I guess is a start..it seems a large ground to grasp.

[Ray A]

How do church stakes manage this and how do people fit in while being a tad different without sacrificing cohesion? What are the limits and where is the line drawn?

I think the Church leaders (local and general) are more tolerant of "radicals" today than they were 20-30 years ago. They recognise diversity not only in the membership, but themselves. Apostle Henry Eyring's father, Henry Eyring Snr., was a scientist, and it might help to read his book, Reflections of a Scientist. Here are some excerpts:

Henry Eyring: Reflections of a Scientist (excerpts)

I think this quote is noteworthy:

We should keep in mind that scientists are as diligent and truthful as anyone else. Organic evolution is the honest result of capable people trying to explain the evidence to the best of their ability. From my limited study of the subject I would say that the physical evidence supporting the theory is considerable from a scientific viewpoint. In my opinion it would be a very sad mistake if a parent or teacher were to belittle scientists as being wicked charlatans or else fools having been duped by half-baked ideas that gloss over inconsistencies. That isn't an accurate assessment of the situation,and our children or students will be able to see that when they begin their scientific studies.

I think the limit is when a person tries to impose their views on members.

[skalenfehl]

Well, when we are interviewed for worthiness by our bishops for temple attendance, recommends, important callings, etc, we are asked very important questions like do we sustain our leaders such as our prophet, do we live the Word of Wisdom, do we live the law of chastity, etc. In other words are we living in harmony with the gospel and the promises or covenants that we made when we were baptized.

To disobey a commandment or speak ill of the Lord's anointed, rebel agains/fight the church, etc, essentially constitutes what we could consider personal apostacy. When we turn away from the Lord in such a manner it is unacceptable to Him.

[WANDERER]

Point taken Ray. LOL.

I think religion and science is entirely compatible...not an issue for me. I love that there are no fullstops in science and we are always learning more...essentially that it is dynamic. Who would think that some scientists question gravity? Fascinating stuff. I'm not anti...just fascinated by it's potential directions. Ruling a line off underneath scientific knowledge and going 'DONE' is something I find hard to understand. But I don't want to detract from my original question in saying this.

Skalenfehl I did look at the interview questions : ) . I'm just wondering how far do you have to go before you are apostacising?

[a-train]

When I saw the thread title I imagined Mormon terrorism. LDS freedom fighters! The Radical LDS! Mormon jihadism! I must confess I was bummed to see the real topic.

-a-train

[WANDERER]

I know A-Train. I caught your first post and thought, gee, I'll bet he was expecting me to tackle the gay LDS movement, pro-polygamy groups or something involving weapons and such. Feel free to post away...it is relevant...I have questions on all of that even if I'm still working out how to phrase them so that discussion will come out of it.

But essentially trying to work out everyday practicalities and how people fit or don't fit.

[Ray A]

When I saw the thread title I imagined Mormon terrorism. LDS freedom fighters! The Radical LDS! Mormon jihadism! I must confess I was bummed to see the real topic.

-a-train

Don't blame you for thinking this in general, but Wanderer's thought-provoking posts alerted me immediately to what it would be about.

[WANDERER]

Ray, while you're about, I'm also interested in Morman culture in Australia. Any stake internet links?

[NeuroTypical]

The line is drawn at abusing your calling. It doesn't matter how different you are, but you need to teach what the church wants you to teach. You need to home/visit teach without turning your families into captive audiences for whatever personal opinion you think should be shared by the whole world.

Also, testimony meeting is for testimonies - not for telling us how God wants us to be or not be in Iraq, how people need to lose weight or go to hell, how you know an evil protestant, etc. Stuff like that.

LM

[skalenfehl]

Skalenfehl I did look at the interview questions : ) . I'm just wondering how far do you have to go before you are apostacising?

I'm not sure. I've never wanted to find out.

[WANDERER]

HAH!! Me neither.

[Ray A]

Ray, while you're about, I'm also interested in Morman culture in Australia. Any stake internet links?

If you want to read about Mormonism in Australia, you can't go beyond Marjorie Newton's book Southern Cross Saints:

Amazon.com: Southern Cross Saints: The Mormons in Australia (Mormons in the Pacific) (Mormons in the Pacific): Marjorie Newton: Books (It probably hasn't had any reviews because no one is as knowledgeable in Australian LDS history as Marjorie is, and, having met and corresponded with her many times, I can tell you she's no "molly Mormon", and once wrote an article for Dialogue titled "Almost Like Us", a critique of Australians adopting US Mormon culture too readily.)

Though at the time of writing she had a Masters, Marjorie has had a Ph.D in history for many years now.

For stake Internet links: Australian LDS Links

Hope this helps.

[WANDERER]

Wow Ray. That's exactly what I'm looking for : ))))))).

[WillowTheWhisp]

Most wards have members who rock the boat, an activity I seem to have been born to do. There are even those who have views that are actually contrasting to the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets.

I should imagine that would be where it gets a bit serious if people begin to express views which are contrary to the teachings of the prophets, or dismiss something which has been taught by church leaders because they don't like what has been said. I think this is why it is emphasised that when teaching we must not stray from the scriptures and the manuals in case we wander off into something incorrect or unacceptable.

On the other hand I personally think we are supposed to use our own common sense too and not dismiss things out of hand, such as those who say that science contradicts the Bible therefore science is of the devil - a bit of an extreme example. I don't see how science can be such a problem. We are trying to understand the world around us. We just don't understand it properly yet. I personally believe that when we do we will find it fully in harmony with the Gospel because Hod is the creator of it all.

We had a homemaking night once (yes it was called that back then) when we were discussing beautifying our homes and one sister said she had crystals in her window which sent rainbows of light across her room. Someone else reacted in horror and declared that such new age things were prohibited by the church. In which case I guess I must be radical and on the verge of excommunication because I love them, although in summer I have to move them from the window because if the sun gets too hot they can be a fire hazard!!!

It's an interesting topic Wanderer and I hope there will be people who can give us some examples.

I wonder too how far one can go with dismissing writings by General Authorities. Is it OK to dismiss them if we don't like the sound of them?

[WANDERER]

I wonder too how far one can go with dismissing writings by General Authorities. Is it OK to dismiss them if we don't like the sound of them?

This is a good question Willow. As I'm not sure about things which had a particular timeframe applying to now.

[WillowTheWhisp]

The time frame thing is usually solved by Heavenly Father. It only seems to get complicated when humans put their own slant on it.

For instance, Heavenly Father will tell a prophet to do a specific thing. It may be that that thing only needs to be done that once at that time and relates to those particular people. The prophet obeys. He tells the people this is what Heavenly Father wants and so they do it. They then go on to tell other people that this is what Heavenly Father wants them to do. But Heavenly Father tells the prophet (maybe another prophet at a later time) that he does not want those people to do that and so the prophet tells them to stop.

Is this Heavenly Father being contradictory? No I don't believe so. Is it the first prophet getting it wrong? No, I don't believe that either. It is people putting their own slant on it and second guessing Heavenly Father which creates the confusion.

That's just my two pennorth anyway.

[NeuroTypical]

I wonder too how far one can go with dismissing writings by General Authorities. Is it OK to dismiss them if we don't like the sound of them?

From what I can tell, the church really isn't out to force you to do anything or be a certain way. The church is all about sharing what we have - it's up to you to accept it.

You wanna dismiss GA's right and left? Go for it. We don't have secret police. We don't tie you up and beat you with bars of soap in socks. We won't try to make your wife divorce you so she can remarry a 'real' mormon.

You get into trouble when you start trying to teach me that I ought to dismiss the GA's.

I was on the records of the church for 6 years when I didn't consider myself LDS. I didn't hold any of the beliefs. I didn't attend any meetings. The church was content to extend an occasional hand of friendship, and otherwise leave me alone. They never took away my priesthood or excommunicated me or anything of the sort. Now, if I had been standing on the streetcorner handing out "mormons are evil" pamplhets, the story would probably have been different. If I tried to crash a sacrament meeting and shout out how stupid everyone was being? Different story.

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p. 150

Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. We are the sons and daughters of God, willing followers, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and "under this head are [we] made free." (Mosiah 5: 8 )

Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see.

Boyd K. Packer, "Agency and Control," Ensign, May 1983, 66

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know[ing] that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil

Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

It is a mistaken idea, prevalent in the world, that the perpetuity of this work depends upon the authorities keeping the masses of the people in ignorance. The truth is the direct reverse, else why have we all these auxiliary organizations and quorums of priesthood in the church, for the education of the rising generation. Their being established in the faith depends upon their knowledge of the Gospel. Our greatest fear concerning our children in Zion is the possibility of their growing up in ignorance of the everlasting Gospel...As a matter of intelligent obedience--not blind obedience--we should observe to keep the word of wisdom. For the same reason we should observe to keep holy the Sabbath day, and the name of our Father in Heaven, and His Son Jesus Christ, and intelligently yield obedience to every requirement that is made at our hands

George F. Richards, Conference Report, April 1907, Afternoon Session, 15-17

LM

[WANDERER]

Loudmouth Mormon...I've come across all that on the net, so I guess it's important to address.

But basically I don't altogether know what a GA is and what that means, other than General Authority so no disrespect intended...but you can probably see from that how I might get myself into trouble ; ).

It's all about that.

[Moksha]

When I saw the thread title I imagined Mormon terrorism. LDS freedom fighters! The Radical LDS! Mormon jihadism! I must confess I was bummed to see the real topic.

-a-train

I am glad terrorism is not one of our peculiarities.

Of course, I could imagine Mormons involved in radical Jell-Oism.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Loudmouth Mormon...I've come across all that on the net, so I guess it's important to address.

But basically I don't altogether know what a GA is and what that means, other than General Authority so no disrespect intended...but you can probably see from that how I might get myself into trouble ; ).

It's all about that.

This may help Wanderer.

[miztrniceguy]

i guess i'll put my double-super-secret agent badge and soap socks back in a drawer...i thought i was gonna need them!

[utcowboy]

I can't say it any better than that..... Thanks LM