A Messed Up Doctrine?

[Cal]

And the conundrums continue.....................we mormons believe that children that die before the age of accountablity automatically go to heaven. So does that mean that if I kill my young children that I am doing them the favor of not letting them risk the possiblity that they might not go to heaven if they live out a normal life? IF it is REALLY true, how could God punish someone for sacrificing himself selflessly by sending his kids to the celestial kingdom forever? Greater love hath no man......... and in this case he is giving not only his earthly life, but his eternal life, WHAT A SACRIFICE.......should it go unrewarded?

[broadway]

Quite a twist you put on this doctrine, eh? Well...you wouldn't be the first to twist the words of our God and prophets...

If you kill a human being before he reaches that age (for that reason), you are trying to put yourself above God by doing something that he forbides...taking free agency away. Satan was cast down out of heaven for this.

Humans were put on earth to go through trials and be tested and prove themselves. By killing a human being, you are cutting his journey short and disallowing him to progress any further on earth. This is a serious sin and is punished very seriously, as you acknowledged. This would not be considered a selfless act or a sacrifice, but as an abomination and blaspheme.

Even if I am wrong, I wouldn't go trying it to see.

[Cal]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 9 2004, 08:34 PM

Quite a twist you put on this doctrine, eh? Well...you wouldn't be the first to twist the words of our God and prophets...

If you kill a human being before he reaches that age (for that reason), you are trying to put yourself above God by doing something that he forbides...taking free agency away. Satan was cast down out of heaven for this.

Humans were put on earth to go through trials and be tested and prove themselves. By killing a human being, you are cutting his journey short and disallowing him to progress any further on earth. This is a serious sin and is punished very seriously, as you acknowledged. This would not be considered a selfless act or a sacrifice, but as an abomination and blaspheme.

Even if I am wrong, I wouldn't go trying it to see.

Do you have children? What would you do if you KNEW that one or more of them would not make it to the celestial kingdom? Odds are they won't right? But what if you could guarantee they they do? Wouldn't you be giving them the greatest gift of all? Would you sacrifice yourself, to save your kids?

[broadway]

Quite a twist you put on this doctrine, eh? Well...you wouldn't be the first to twist the words of our God and prophets...

If you kill a human being before he reaches that age (for that reason), you are trying to put yourself above God by doing something that he forbides...taking free agency away. Satan was cast down out of heaven for this.

Humans were put on earth to go through trials and be tested and prove themselves. By killing a human being, you are cutting his journey short and disallowing him to progress any further on earth. This is a serious sin and is punished very seriously, as you acknowledged. This would not be considered a selfless act or a sacrifice, but as an abomination and blaspheme.

Even if I am wrong, I wouldn't go trying it to see. 

Do you have children? What would you do if you KNEW that one or more of them would not make it to the celestial kingdom? Odds are they won't right? But what if you could guarantee they they do? Wouldn't you be giving them the greatest gift of all? Would you sacrifice yourself, to save your kids?

I do have two children. My first loyalty goes to Heavenly Father. This can be difficult at times. My second loyalty is to my husband...again, this can be difficult. Then to my children.

This is the way things ought to be, according to scriptures.

I can understand your point of view and ,as a parent, can appreciate it. However, you loose them the opportunity to progress further if you take their earthly life away before the age of accountability. How fair would it be to your child if he was going to get married, endure to the end, etc and make it to the very top, but you decided that he wasn't good enough to actually accomplish all that.

How dare any person take these kinds of things into their own hands? If you were Heavenly Father, what would you think of a person who did such a thing?

[Guest lt]

cal,

do you sit up nights thinking up these questions? No...I wouldn't because they have to be given a fair chance to choose the right, no matter what the out come may be and to kill someone would take away your opportunity to make it to the C.K.

just my thoughts

Laureltree

[Lindy]

Cal,

You are scaring me....with that kind of thinking

Where on earth did you come up with something like that?

[Guest Ruthie-chan]

Ya know, that thought entered into my mind once upon a time.

But ya know what? It's not fair to your children to kill them and take away their free agency.

This also robs them of having an eternal family with you. YOU won't make it to the top.

Therefore, you are effectively out of their eternal lives.

When you die, you take whatever knowledge you have with you. That's all.

If you kill a child, they have very little knowledge in comparison to many others.

How fair is that?

They would lose you in the eternities and to top it all off, there will be things they will never be able to learn because they were robbed of this life.

I often wonder if this is the kind of justification people use when getting abortions.

Along with, it's cruel to let them live in such a terrible world.

Whatever. *shakes head*

ps, I am a mother.

[shanstress70]

I can't even believe this conversation is taking place!

[Jenda]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 10 2004, 05:18 AM

I can't even believe this conversation is taking place!

I second that thought.

[Tr2]

This is a very interesting topic. A little off the wall, but interesting because of the nature of the theology.

If you were to kill your children at a young age, I do believe they would go to heaven. Without a doubt. I think you would be screwed because Jesus spoke very harshly against those who would do wrong to children.

If you knew your kid wouldn't make it to heaven. Well now we're talking about YOU. You kill your kid, and he/she goes to heaven, but what about you. Did you harm your kids? yep. Did you do what was best for them? Nope. We are supposed to love our children. In a way we have forced them to go to heaven, whether they would have wanted to or not. God has never forced a person into heaven, which is why He gives man a choice in the matter. I once heard somebody say that God loves us so much that He will never force His will onto them.

That would not be the best thing for your children because you have robbed them of living on earth, as they were meant to. and you have robbed them of their choice in the matter. You would have forced them to do what you wanted without considering whether or not they even want to go to heaven. If my son ever tells me "Dad, I don't want to go to heaven", that will be the hardest thing I could ever imagine. But I would hope i could respect that decision, because God respected mine for so many years.

It is not our job to make sure other people go to heaven. It is our job to make sure they know how to get there.

[Guest Ruthie-chan]

Wow, I agree with Tr2.

I somehow didn't think that would ever happen!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal@Jun 9 2004, 08:27 PM

And the conundrums continue.....................we mormons believe that children that die before the age of accountablity automatically go to heaven. So does that mean that if I kill my young children that I am doing them the favor of not letting them risk the possiblity that they might not go to heaven if they live out a normal life? IF it is REALLY true, how could God punish someone for sacrificing himself selflessly by sending his kids to the celestial kingdom forever? Greater love hath no man......... and in this case he is giving not only his earthly life, but his eternal life, WHAT A SACRIFICE.......should it go unrewarded?

Brother only you could come up with such a screwed view of mormon doctrine that is meant to bring peace....and you make it bring murder....gadfreeeze....

[Setheus]

A good example of why this would not be good is from Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire. The character Claudia was 6yrs old and dying of the black death. Louis and Lestat turned her into a vampire. She would forever be young. Forever immune to sickness. But she would never grow up. And her character became very bitter over that and even began to hate the two who gave her the "dark gift". After all thats what they thought they were doing when they turned her. Giving her a gift.

When you kill a child for the stated purpose you may send them to heaven, but you rob them of the very reason they even exist in the first place! To eternally progress.

Will they be doomed to be angels because of your actions? Will you have robbed them of a "fullness of joy"?

And Part of what makes us happy is our parents. So if you go and send yourself to hell is that really doing whats best for your child???

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Cal@Jun 9 2004, 09:27 PM

And the conundrums continue.....................we mormons believe that children that die before the age of accountablity automatically go to heaven. So does that mean that if I kill my young children that I am doing them the favor of not letting them risk the possiblity that they might not go to heaven if they live out a normal life? IF it is REALLY true, how could God punish someone for sacrificing himself selflessly by sending his kids to the celestial kingdom forever? Greater love hath no man......... and in this case he is giving not only his earthly life, but his eternal life, WHAT A SACRIFICE.......should it go unrewarded?

Um...some of this may have already been said...but I didn't feel like reading the rest of the thread.

That "sacrifice" would HORENDOUSLY infringe upon your children's free agency. Satan's plan in the pre-mortal exsistance was to take away our agency in this life. If you did that to your children you'd be no better than he. We are to love our children the way God showed his love for us: by letting us make our own mistakes and be given the CHOICE to return to Him.

If I loved my girlfriend (assuming I had one ) but didn't want to risk breaking the law of chastity with her besause of that love would I go have my genitalia removed to ensure I couldn't do it (sorry if you find that graphic...)? NO! If you love your child you don't take away their choices you teach them, rear them, nurture them to making the right ones.

That child in the pre-mortal life CHOSE to come to the world and put everything on the line to return to our Heavenly Father. To risk screwing up in order to recieve a greater glory. How dare anyone take that from them.

So...it's not really a conundrum.

[Guest Starsky]

Plus...we come down for experience....you kill your child....and don't get the experience they chose to have.....how crummy is that?

[Guest Unorthodox]

[Ray]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 10 2004, 11:50 AM

I think anyone who starts to think this way must think that they KNOW the Celestial Kingdom exists.

And this is just one example of why that is dangerous thinking.

We have to accept that WE DO NOT KNOW THE CHURCH IS TRUE.

Have FAITH in the Church...FAITH in Heaven...that's great if it makes you feel good.

But keep a healthy amount of DOUBT in your mind. Because if it is not true, this is our one and only life, and death will only be THE END.

You won’t advance very far in the Jedi (Saintly) order with that attitude, my friend.

Use the Faith, Tao, and you’ll be amazed by the things you’ll come to know. :)

p.s. I'm in the mood to watch another Star Wars marathon.

[Guest Unorthodox]

[Guest curvette]

Good heaven's Cal! I don't think I personally know any parent who would kill their child under any circumstances. If our bodies and minds are healthy, and we were loved as children, we would usually have the instinct to protect our children, not harm them. I would certainly never have enough faith (or insanity) to do so for any reason. The only people I can think of that would are crazy. Everyone knows of instances where a mentally ill mom has killed her children because some voices told her they'd be better off in heaven than in this evil world. I think religion, combined with mental illness can be a dangerous combination. The doctrine that children automatically go to heaven though is probably a great comfort to people who lose a child.

[Cal]

Originally posted by lindy9556@Jun 10 2004, 12:08 AM

Cal,

You are scaring me....with that kind of thinking

Where on earth did you come up with something like that?

Uhhh...right from our own scriptures? Are my premises wrong? Do young children who die, not go to the celestial kingdom, according to mormon doctrine? Is it not a virtue to sacrifice all one has for the benefit of another? If you could guarantee the celestial, with all its benefits, to your children, can you not see why some wouldn't make the sacrifice

I'm not saying we are required to, but you can see how the logical consequences of some mormon doctrine could lead the literalists among us to some pretty strange behavior.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that few, if any of us would. Why? Because, deep down, we all actually have some doubt as to the truth of much of this stuff.

[Guest Unorthodox]

[Cal]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 9 2004, 08:47 PM

Quite a twist you put on this doctrine, eh? Well...you wouldn't be the first to twist the words of our God and prophets...

If you kill a human being before he reaches that age (for that reason), you are trying to put yourself above God by doing something that he forbides...taking free agency away. Satan was cast down out of heaven for this.

Humans were put on earth to go through trials and be tested and prove themselves. By killing a human being, you are cutting his journey short and disallowing him to progress any further on earth. This is a serious sin and is punished very seriously, as you acknowledged. This would not be considered a selfless act or a sacrifice, but as an abomination and blaspheme.

Even if I am wrong, I wouldn't go trying it to see. 

Do you have children? What would you do if you KNEW that one or more of them would not make it to the celestial kingdom? Odds are they won't right? But what if you could guarantee they they do? Wouldn't you be giving them the greatest gift of all? Would you sacrifice yourself, to save your kids?

I do have two children. My first loyalty goes to Heavenly Father. This can be difficult at times. My second loyalty is to my husband...again, this can be difficult. Then to my children.

This is the way things ought to be, according to scriptures.

I can understand your point of view and ,as a parent, can appreciate it. However, you loose them the opportunity to progress further if you take their earthly life away before the age of accountability. How fair would it be to your child if he was going to get married, endure to the end, etc and make it to the very top, but you decided that he wasn't good enough to actually accomplish all that.

How dare any person take these kinds of things into their own hands? If you were Heavenly Father, what would you think of a person who did such a thing?

First, you wouldn't be taking ANYTHING away from the child. Isn't our goal to reach the celestial kingdom?

Second, why would God be angry with a totally selfless act? I thought God approved of people sacrificing all for the sake of another. Even if God were angry, that is the point!! You are willing to endure the rath of God to save your children. Quite a noble sacrifice don't you think? Do you dispute that the ODDS are that some of one's children will not make the celestial otherwise?

[Cal]

Originally posted by Ruthie-chan@Jun 10 2004, 04:38 AM

Ya know, that thought entered into my mind once upon a time.

But ya know what? It's not fair to your children to kill them and take away their free agency.

This also robs them of having an eternal family with you. YOU won't make it to the top.

Therefore, you are effectively out of their eternal lives.

When you die, you take whatever knowledge you have with you. That's all.

If you kill a child, they have very little knowledge in comparison to many others.

How fair is that?

They would lose you in the eternities and to top it all off, there will be things they will never be able to learn because they were robbed of this life.

I often wonder if this is the kind of justification people use when getting abortions.

Along with, it's cruel to let them live in such a terrible world.

Whatever. *shakes head*

ps, I am a mother.

There are lots of things people never learn ANYWAY. Besides, if you weigh the consequences of not making the celestial kingdom with the consequences of NOT learning a few things, which would you chose? You are still doing the kid a favor, NO? Think about it, quaranteed celestial kingdom, what can top that?

(I do say some of this for discussion sake---but, the logic compels me to explore the rationality of it all)

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky+Jun 10 2004, 08:55 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ Jun 10 2004, 08:55 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Jun 9 2004, 08:27 PM

And the conundrums continue.....................we mormons believe that children that die before the age of accountablity automatically go to heaven. So does that mean that if I kill my young children that I am doing them the favor of not letting them risk the possiblity that they might not go to heaven if they live out a normal life? IF it is REALLY true, how could God punish someone for sacrificing himself selflessly by sending his kids to the celestial kingdom forever? Greater love hath no man......... and in this case he is giving not only his earthly life, but his eternal life, WHAT A SACRIFICE.......should it go unrewarded?

Brother only you could come up with such a screwed view of mormon doctrine that is meant to bring peace....and you make it bring murder....gadfreeeze....

Hey, Starsky, Mormon scriptures is FULL of homicide , in case you hadn't noticed. Of course, it's all sanctioned by God, it has a nobel purpose. (Nephi kills laban, blood atonement etc) I didn't write the doctrines of the LDS church, and I don't even believe some of them. It wasn't I that claimed that children who die automatically inherit the celestial. It wasn't I who said "greater love hath no man......". It is I that is drawing some logical conclusions from YOUR scriptures. Care to add something rational?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Cal@ Jun 10 2004, 03:51 PM

Actually, the fact of the matter is that few, if any of us would. Why? Because, deep down, we all actually have some doubt as to the truth of much of this stuff.

Actually, I don’t think it is so much a matter of “that” as it is that we can see how some people can even twist the truth to support an unrighteous act.

Yes, children who die before the age of accountability will automatically go to the celestial kingdom.

No, that doesn’t mean that we should go around killing all children before they get to be that old.

Why?

Because the act of killing children will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble

And

Because children should be allowed to experience as much of their lives as they can.

There are still some unasked and unanswered questions about all this, but we should at least understand what we should do and not do in regards to children.

Kill them… NO

Allow them to choose how to live their own lives: YES

Got it?