Some questions for Mormons

[Hemidakota]

I just love it when someone comes here asking us what we believe and then commences to tell us what we believe. I've been reading this forum for 3 days now and I am surprised that the mods haven't close it yet....

To xan.....don't you know you're in a losing situation? You'll never "convert" or cause a "Mormon" to abandon the truth. And here's why.....

You have the Bible, compiled 300 years after Christ died by a bunch of hand picked religious figures from a pagan Roman emperor and then added to with their creedal interpretations of scripture to fit the political climate. Then through the ages (1700 years or so) of translations etc. you have the KJV of the Holy Bible along with those same ancient creedal interpretations adopted by many "different" Christian churches.

We have the Holy Bible (less those creedal interpretations) AND we have the further light and knowledge the Lord promised us in the BOM, D&C, POGP and continual revelation from God by a living Prophet.

But, you and the rest of evangelical Christendom want us to use your ancient creedal interpretations of the Bible to measure the truthfulness of what we believe.

WE DON"T NEED TO!

The Bible and the Book of Mormon fit together like a glove. The Book of Mormon and modern revelation clarify and restore simple truths in the Bible.

You can bring up all the old anti-Mormon arguments, you can set forth your creedal doctrine, you can quote, miss quote and completely take out of context LDS General Authorities all day long. But you will never convince a member of the Lords church that what we know to be true is wrong because we have been given an absolute witness of it from the Spirit of God himself.

The funny thing is we understand your faith fairly well as a lot of us have been where you are and a lot of what you believe we believe. However, I can honestly say that you will never understand or accept our faith unless you yourself receive witness of the truth through the Spirit as we have....and then again if that happened you'd be asking for Baptism.

God Bless

Conceivably, they fail to realize, our testimony of the Savior, the Gospel, the Atonement, and the very nature of the Godhead is not dependent on a book, a prophet, or others who claimed tp profess to know. As intelligences, we are independent but united in the same cause in bringing to pass the glory of God and the Savior to our brothers and sisters in this world.

[Flyonthewall]

What is the reliable way you know anything to be true?

Personal revelation through the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 16

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You say your prophet hears from God, and that you know you need a prophet becasue the doctrinal books say as much, but I am challenging you, using your own reason, how do you know that if everything that you have accused the Bible of could be said of your own? The countless alterations to the Book of Mormon as mostly grammatical fixes while at the same time it blasts Christians on charges that the Bible is flawed because of its many translations. It's complete hypocrisy. What's more, major portions of the Book of Mormon are copied directly from the Bible, particularly from the book of Isaiah. How can something so corrupted like the Bible (as you claim), be poured into something so correct, like the Book of Mormon, and not remain unpolluted itself?"

Why do you insist on claiming that we believe the Bible to be "so corrupted"?. We believe the Bible to be scripture, and put just as much emphasis on studying it as we do anything else. Some things have been altered in the Bible, but with the companion scriptures that we have, brought about by the power of G_d, we can know the plain and precious things that have altered in the Bible.

How do you know the Bilbe is inerrent? Did somebody tell you? Do you believe it because it says so in the Bible? That's kind of like saying "I know he is right because he told me he was".

The Bible is not a living organism, it is a compiliation of ancient writing that is as reliable as the people who translated it. Though the linguists assigned to translate it were very knowledgable and learned, they were not prophets. We believe the scriptures unique to Mormons, were translated by a living Prophet. How do you know anyone in the Bible was who they were described to be? You have not personally met them or seen them or witnessed any of the miracles that are attributed to them. How do you know?

I have been respectful in my disagreement, and offered up information and facts to consider, I have given the same respect and answered many questions of my faith.

The Mods probably havent closed this becasue for the most part it's been a great discussion, with many questions back and forth. I haven't written a falshood about your faith, and I haven't attacked anyone. I really dont understand why you are so angry, but again, I appologize.

In the beginning I quoted your own president inviting this criticism, and questions in the pursuit of truth, that is all I have been after, truth.

I have found you to be respectful in your disagreement, but a bit unwilling to accept the answers given. You don't have to agree with them, but recognize that we have answered

your questions.

Belief in Christ is all about faith. If you are really looking for solid concrete justification as to what and why we believe the things we do, without falling back on "feelings", then I'm not sure what you are after. After all, isn't faith a "feeling"?

[xanmad33]

xanman, the litmus test that you require is not directly found in the Bible, only inferred and very easily (mis)interpreted. However, another litmus test for determining which church is true is found throughout the Bible.

Indeed there can be false prophets but there is also one true prophet. Just as there were false prophets in the Bible there were true prophets. The litmus test that the humble of the children of Israel used is the same that we use now and that is through personal revelation.

Matt. 16: 17

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Alas we remain on opposite sides of the fence. If you do not or cannot believe our words, then believe in our fruits. By our fruits you will know us. Best wishes.

It's not that I wish to remain on opposite sides, it's just that I have many questions regarding how you know your absolute truth is absolutely true

The test of truth, I have been encouraged to try in Moroni 10:5 will only work if the book of Mormon is True, how do you know the book of Mormon is true outside of Moroni 10:5? The test of Moroni 10:5 only works if the person prays already believing that it is a reliable test and a reliable promise. In praying the test of Moroni 10:5, you’ve already acknowledged that you believe in the God of the Book of Mormon, and you believe the book of Mormon to be a reliable truth source and the Test of Moroni 10:5 to be a promise of God which he will answer. These are the very things you should be testing, not already believing prior to the test.

It has been inferred here already that everyone who prays the prayer in Moroni has received a ‘testimony’ that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that is your proof.

If the Book of Mormon is true, then doing as it directs (in Moroni 10:5) would produce the results promised, and the manifestation one would receive after applying the test would be from the Holy Spirit.

However, if the BoM is false, then Moroni 10:5 being part of the book is likewise false and an invalid means of finding out whether or not the book is true, and any manifestations received would then be coming from a demonic source,

Your claims are based on what Jospeh Smith said (and not what history shows) about there being a complete and "total apostasy" where the church died until he came and restored it in North America correct?

But the Bible says that Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd, what kind of a Good Shepherd would leave his entire flock unattended for 1800 years?

God's Word also says, "The gates of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God," (Matt. 16:18). If a total apostacy took place, would that not make God a liar?

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says on pg. 57; “Joseph Smith in his first vision (1820) was told by Christ that all existing churches had gone astray, both in their teachings and in their practice, although they had "a form of godliness" (JS-H 1:18-19). Thus it was necessary for a "restoration" of the gospel to take place.”

The dilemma with this theory comes in light of what D&C 7:1-8 says. It claims Smith was told in this vision that Peter, James and John never died.

If it's true that they hold the keys to the Gospel and it also true that they never died then it cannot be true that a complete apostasy took place.

Why couldn't the apostles have made sure that the priesthood was handed down to the Christians instead of waiting for it to get to such a degraded state?

With regard to Bible verses supporting all this, only if you take them completely out of context and do not regard the entiretly of scripture can you then make a case supporting the need for everything you listed.

[a-train]

A-train, I appreciate your questions, but they are misleading to say the least.

The reason I answer these questions using your own scripture, is to illistrate the completely opposing doctrines we both hold with regard to WHO the person we both call "Christ" even is.

But you have not answered my questions. Again, please refrain from telling me what I believe. With all respect, you frankly do not know. You don't need to educate me on the subject.

Please answer my questions. If you will show me this courtesy, I will answer yours.

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Is He not exalted?

Did He not live on this earth in every way a man?

Did He not pass through life and death?

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

And, just so we are perfectly clear, God (Jesus) has a body of flesh and bone, correct?

Please just answer my questions from your point of view. I know very well how Joseph Smith and LDS leaders answer these questions.

-a-train

[Hemidakota]

It's not that I wish to remain on opposite sides, it's just that I have many questions regarding how you know your absolute truth is absolutely true

Depends on your spiritual maturity, is the method of reception. For some, it is a feeling, for the few, it is a voice like Paul on the road of Damascus. It is your desire, sincerety, humilty, and obiedence that will stir your course for the answer.

It has been inferred here already that everyone who prays the prayer in Moroni has received a ‘testimony’ that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that is your proof.

If the Book of Mormon is true, then doing as it directs (in Moroni 10:5) would produce the results promised, and the manifestation one would receive after applying the test would be from the Holy Spirit.

I was not converted by the BOM. Matter of fact, at first, I found the book of historical value but not added value. My own ignorance was showing. However, I found the D&C and the Pearl of Great Price fascinating and held my interest. There are ‘whispering’ to the soul across the thinning veil that drives the soul in hungering for the answer. If by chance you have read the BOM and there is no whispering, or excitement stirring your soul, then something is muddled with your own life – the phrase ‘attunement’ is the key here to the Hoy Spirit.

You have to remember, our testimony is the outcome of our prayer in seeking the answer, whether or not, Christ lives, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the very fact this is the only church that belongs to GOD when we already reading the works prior to our conversion. GOD is not going to respond to you when there is no effect on your part. Isn’t life filled with trials? Would you surrender your soul to the GOD’s will? Could you endure the truth when received to the very end, no matter the circumstances?

However, if the BoM is false, then Moroni 10:5 being part of the book is likewise false and an invalid means of finding out whether or not the book is true, and any manifestations received would then be coming from a demonic source

Do you understand how the Holy Ghost conveys a confirmation versus the devils? There is nothing that a devil can give you that brings joyous, electricafying feelings to the soul. That is beyond there own comprehension. Evil is evil and does not bring any good to this world.

Your claims are based on what Jospeh Smith said (and not what history shows) about there being a complete and "total apostasy" where the church died until he came and restored it in North America correct?

Most history I do read is an observation viewpoint written dialog by an author and can be filled with biased opinionation. Where was the first empire setup upon planet earth? It ends in the same location.

But the Bible says that Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd, what kind of a Good Shepherd would leave his entire flock unattended for 1800 years?

Did He? That is own assumption based on your observation.

God's Word also says, "The gates of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God," (Matt. 16:18). If a total apostacy took place, would that not make God a liar?

If HE was a liar, you and me would not exist, nor would this part of creation. What is the grand truth to any GOD's plan? Let me help here, it is call 'FREE AGENCY.' We choose our path, whether it leads to destruction or it leads to the glory of GOD. The church fell away due to wolfs crept in among the sheep. We do know who the wolfs were serving in the end and it was not GOD.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says on pg. 57; “Joseph Smith in his first vision (1820) was told by Christ that all existing churches had gone astray, both in their teachings and in their practice, although they had "a form of godliness" (JS-H 1:18-19). Thus it was necessary for a "restoration" of the gospel to take place.”

How many times has the church or the gospel fell away since Adam? Only in the last days, the Lord GOD choose among the great and noble intelligence, HIS children to come down in that hour to ensure the success of HIS plan. This Church will not fail. This nation will not fail. The state of Israel will not fail. However, others nations, empires, creed, religions, and beliefs will fail. Reas the last twelve books in the OT for the answer. Even Nephi seen this and wrote briefly in 2 Nephi. However, Brother of Jared seen all it, as other prophets of the same and was told in not revealing the word until the Lord commands it. Food for thought.

The dilemma with this theory comes in light of what D&C 7:1-8 says. It claims Smith was told in this vision that Peter, James and John never died.

Let me correct that - it was John, the youngest among the original twelve who seek that very desire to remain on earth. He still lives, as Moses, as Alma Jr, and hundred others who still roam the planet or nearby planets.

Peter was crusified in Rome, up side down as requested. James was beheaded by the so-called priests. More like murders to me.

If it's true that they hold the keys to the Gospel and it also true that they never died then it cannot be true that a complete apostasy took place.

Yes, they hold the keys for there own dispensation as other notable OT prophets did. In the end, Adam will hold all to be return to Christ when He returns. I do see you are limited in your understanding how the priesthood works. No problem....

Why couldn't the apostles have made sure that the priesthood was handed down to the Christians instead of waiting for it to get to such a degraded state?

By removing the Prophet [Peter] and no succeeding prophet or replacement for the twelve was instituted [noting communication], it was impossible for the church to react quickly. I can say, I never knew how many lackeys do the devil bidding.

With regard to Bible verses supporting all this, only if you take them completely out of context and do not regard the entiretly of scripture can you then make a case supporting the need for everything you listed.

Do you really think the Bible is complete? Do you know there are more than 5,000 plus scrolls, papayas, or written texts that were not consider by those apostates and pagans? I even have a running list of four different time periods where some of the NT was not even considered canonized. Some of the writings previously held as canonized writing, even fell off that same list during that grand pagan council.

You could list reference upon reference, at this time; it is matter of your spiritual maturity in receiving the Holy Spirit confirmation to the truth. That remains to be seen at this point. Remember, desire, hope, sincerety, humility, should be the true intent in earnestly seeking the Gospel of Christ.

[xanmad33]

Personal revelation through the Holy Ghost.

But that's subjective because of the nature and the heart of man.

If I need to look to my own inner man, to my own heart for a feeling of confirmation of truth. The problem with that is that it makes the heart of man the authoritative truth source. The Bible is very clear about the nature of man’s heart.

“The Heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9

“He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool” Proverbs 28:26

According to scripture, not only can I not trust the unobservable heart you, I can’t even trust my own heart.

But then you may argue it is not the heart of man that reveals the truth, but the spirit that is manifest unto them and it brings me right back to these verses illistrating that there are many spirits, and not all are truthful:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” 1 Timothy 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel…let him be accursed” Galatians 1:8

“And no Marvel; for Satan Himself is transformed into an angel of Light.” II Corinthians 11:14

Scripture is clear, wdde cannot discern truth from what a spirit tells us. One particular spirit, Satan, who’s purpose is to deceive and devour (Revelation 12:9, 1 Peter 5:8), can transform himself into an angel of light. And demonic spirits can appear as angels from heaven who will preach a kind of gospel, (the false kind). We should not be opening our hearts to be influenced by such spirits, believing everything they teach or lead us to believe, but rather test them, lest we fall prey to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

I believe these claims need to be tested becasue the Bible reveals our hearts to be full of sin, desperately wicked and unworthy of trust. The fact that we are to open our hearts to the influence of spirits without testing these spirits is just downright dangerous.

Why do you insist on claiming that we believe the Bible to be "so corrupted"?.

Because Mormons here have already told me as much, not to mention it's part of your own doctrine correct?

We believe the Bible to be scripture, and put just as much emphasis on studying it as we do anything else. Some things have been altered in the Bible, but with the companion scriptures that we have, brought about by the power of G_d, we can know the plain and precious things that have altered in the Bible.

Again, this is speculation to the nth degree. You are relying on your own corrupted books as authoratative on the BIbles reliability. Sounds like a walking contradiction to me.

[xanmad33]

How do you know the Bilbe is inerrent? Did somebody tell you? Do you believe it because it says so in the Bible? That's kind of like saying "I know he is right because he told me he was".

The Bible is not a living organism, it is a compiliation of ancient writing that is as reliable as the people who translated it. Though the linguists assigned to translate it were very knowledgable and learned, they were not prophets. We believe the scriptures unique to Mormons, were translated by a living Prophet. How do you know anyone in the Bible was who they were described to be? You have not personally met them or seen them or witnessed any of the miracles that are attributed to them. How do you know?

There are many reasons I believe in the Bible, so many!

-It's unique in its continuity

-The Bible is unique in its survival

-The Bible, compared with other ancient writings, has more manuscript evidence than any 10 pieces of classical literature combined ...

With regard to the New Testament books, John Warwick Montgomery stated:

"... to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."

Bernard Ramm speaks of the accuracy and number of Biblical manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures:

"Jews preserved it as no other manuscript has ever been preserved. With their massora they kept tabs on every letter, syllable, word and paragraph. They had special classes of men within their culture whose sole duty was to preserve and transmit these documents with practically perfect fidelity ... who ever counted the letters, syllables and words of Plato or Aristotle? Cicero or Seneca?"

-The number of existing manuscripts

-The dating of the manuscripts

-The archaeological/external evidence

-Evidence from early writers; all but eleven verses of the New Testament are found in the works of second and third century writers.

Here are three suggested test or "remedys" by author John Montgomery to determine truth, he proposes:

1.)"What each remedy revealed about the son's father."

---Evidence from the creation strongly argues for the existence of a god who is personal, powerful, eternal, wise, and moral. -The Bible declares all of these attributes of God.

2.)How accurate each remedy pictures the nature of the disease."

--Many of the liberal and humanistic religions stress the basic goodness of man's nature. They say corruption comes from society. This goes contrary to the facts of history and logic. History reveals that man is not basically good; he is basically selfish and sinful. The liberal view man is also illogical because society is a group of individual people. To blame the situation of the world on society is to blame it on people. This is exactly what the Bible teaches: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

3.)How sound the various curative methods appear to be. If God has revealed Himself in propositional form, that revelation would have certain properties due to His infinite knowledge and moral perfection:

---It would be entirely true - His infinite knowledge would prevent errors and His truthfulness would keep Him from deception.

---It would be a coherent unity, therefore not self- contradictory.

---It would contain God's will for man, and provide the motivation to live according to that will.

There is also strong archaeological evidence.

Nelson Glueck, a respected Jewish archaeologist claims: "It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference."

The Mormon claim for inspiration of the Book of Mormon has been categorically condemned by the Smithsonian Institute because of the fallacies shown by archaeology; this is not so with the Bible.

A.N. Sherwin-White, a respected classical historian at Oxford says, "For Acts the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming..."

On Jesus:

Scholars have made statements such as, "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus ."

-The latest version of Encyclopedia Britannica says in its discussion of the multiple extra-biblical witnesses:

"These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

Even the atheist H. G. Wells spoke of Jesus, "...one is obliged to say, "Here was a man. This part of the tale could not have been invented."

Another testament is the unity of The Bible, it was written by over 40 authors who came from just about every walk of life conceivable, including fisherman, kings, a butler, priests, and a tax collector.

The 66 books of the Bible were written over a 1,500 year span in three languages on three continents with one theme and no contradictions.

C.J. Sharp's captures this idea beautifully:

"If a fragment of stone were found in Italy, another in Asia Minor, another in Greece, another in Egypt, and on and on until sixty-six fragments had been found, and if when put together they fitted perfectly together, making a perfect statue of Venus de Milo, there is not an artist or scientist but would arrive immediately at the conclusion that there was originally a sculptor who conceived and carved the statue. The very lines and perfections would probably determine which of the great ancient artists carved the statue. Not only the unity of the Scriptures, but their lines of perfection, suggest One far above any human as the real author. That could be no one but God ."

Prophetic evidence is yet another reason Christians believe God is the ultimate author of the Bible. The predictive prophecies in the Bible is unique to the world's religions because if one predicts something will happen and it does not, they are proven to be phony. The Bible is literally filled with detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled with 100% accuracy.

If those are not good enough proofs that one must, at the very least, give this book a second look, and possibly give creedance to what God says about himself, then nothing ever will be.

There is NO OTHER book that has stood the tests this book has stood.

I have found you to be respectful in your disagreement, but a bit unwilling to accept the answers given. You don't have to agree with them, but recognize that we have answered

your questions.

Belief in Christ is all about faith. If you are really looking for solid concrete justification as to what and why we believe the things we do, without falling back on "feelings", then I'm not sure what you are after. After all, isn't faith a "feeling"?

I haven't heard a good answer about your book, I havent heard someone say ANYTHING or ANYONE is infallable in your entire religion. Not your prophets or any book you hold dear, so I am left trying to understand why in the face of such evidences for the Bible, and the lack of evidences for the BOM, that you still believe all the other fallable men who make up the foundation of your faith are above a book that has never been proven false?

I genuinely do not understand, and have been asking to better understand.

[Misshalfway]

Everything with regards to this earth is fallable. Except the Holy Spirit of God. Except God himself and his perfect Son. We are all doing our best. Even the most faithful among us fall short of the glory of God. Everything we do here in this earthly realm is flawed. And that is absolutely ok. God doesn't require the bible or the bofm or a prophet to become perfect before He will use it to inspire and convert and bring his children to him. We are not discounting the Bible as the word of God. We are saying, "Hey world, there is more. More records of the Lord coming to the earth. He came to jerusalem. And now we know he came to America. Come and read about it." Why wouldn't the follower of Christ want more of His word?

If the bible were the hinge-point for everyone coming to Christ, what of the people at the time of Christ who didn't have any such compilation? What of the people living and worshiping before the time of the Lord? How would God save them? Teach them? Guide them? We are so very lucky to have their record! To learn from their mistakes. To see actually accounts of the Lord's dealing with the children of men. In this day and age with all the confusion in the world and with the wickedness of the last days, I am so very grateful to have the scriptures to lean on.

I understand what you are saying about the human nature being flawed. You are right that we should not trust in the arm of the flesh. I believe that God has the ability thru the Atonement to change my very nature. I read the scriptures so that I can learn what my nature should be. I am tested thru my earth-life experience -- thru pain and human-ness -- to learn to choose well. And as I choose righteousness and as I seek the Spirit of the Lord, my nature changes. I become kinder, more patient, more loving -- literally more like the Savior. That is why I give my will to Him. To do with me and my life what he will. I use the scriptures as wonderful records....even in their imperfection, to help me in that pursuit of Christ. They are tools. They are part of my foundation. But the cornerstone of my testimony is Christ himself. This to me is the very purpose of life. I rely on God to show me truth. I can't rely on man..... man is limited even on his best day! I must rely on more than the scriptures. I don't discount them. I glean every single bit of truth I can out of them. But I recognize that I must rely on God first just like the rest of humanity who may or may not have had the blessing of the scriptures to help them.

You say that you haven't heard a good answer for our book. What better answer than from God himself? Your scientists and historians. Can they stand stronger than Him? Especially if they have the untrustable nature of which you speak.

[Hemidakota]

The problem with the bible or collection of works, it is not complete. If it was, it would pale my own 4,000 page journal.

Even the Brother of Jared and Abraham, who were prior to Moses, had records of fathers [since Adam], which we do not have today.

[xanmad33]

Everything with regards to this earth is fallable. Except the Holy Spirit of God. Except God himself and his perfect Son. We are all doing our best. Even the most faithful among us fall short of the glory of God. Everything we do here in this earthly realm is flawed. And that is absolutely ok. God doesn't require the bible or the bofm or a prophet to become perfect before He will use it to inspire and convert and bring his children to him.

Everything you have just said is your own exclusive belief about God. Everything.

(If you watched the video I posted the other day, that might make more sense)

You have basically said there is no concrete proof and that one cannot trust in anything in this entire world... therefore you cannot know unequivically that There is a God who has a son and that he is a distinct god.

You cannot know that God does not require The Bible to be perfect., as you cannot even prove it isn't.

You do not know Gods plan.

All these satements are your own personal beliefs, your own PERSONAL truths, they are not authoratative, they are exclusive.

What you have basically said is that the LDS know nothing for certain.

Therefore I can conclude it must be false.

You have no real argument for the validity of the claims your faith make if you cannot even attest to the validity of your faith books and prophet that make them.

If the bible were the hinge-point for everyone coming to Christ, what of the people at the time of Christ who didn't have any such compilation? What of the people living and worshiping before the time of the Lord? How would God save them? Teach them? Guide them? We are so very lucky to have their record! To learn from their mistakes. To see actually accounts of the Lord's dealing with the children of men. In this day and age with all the confusion in the world and with the wickedness of the last days, I am so very grateful to have the scriptures to lean on.

If you read the Bible you would have an answer to those questions, it's all there.

I understand what you are saying about the human nature being flawed. You are right that we should not trust in the arm of the flesh. I believe that God has the ability thru the Atonement to change my very nature. I read the scriptures so that I can learn what my nature show be. I am tested thru my earth-life experience -- thru pain and human-ness -- to learn to choose well. And as I choose righteousness and as I seek the Spirit of the Lord, my nature changes. I become kinder, more patient, more loving -- literally more like the Savior. That is why I give my will to Him. To do with me and my life what he will. I use the scriptures as wonderful....yet imperfect as they are to help me in that pursuit. They are tools. They are part of my foundation. But the cornerstone of my testimony is Christ himself. This to me is the very purpose of life. I rely on God to show me truth. I can't rely on man..... man is limited even on his best day! I must rely more than the scriptures. I don't discount them. I glean every single bit of truth I can out of them. But I recognize that I must rely on God first just like the rest of humanity who may or may not have had the blessing of the scriptures to help them.

You say that you haven't heard a good answer for our book. What better answer than from God himself? Your scientists and historians. Can they stand stronger than Him?

You cannot even show me HOW you know it is God himself!

How do you really know the nature of God if you have no reliable text or prophets to show you?

How do you know there is a need for a prophet if you are not trusting in fallable man?

All your beliefs are exclusive in and of themselves.

All your statements are your belief about what can and cannot happen with regard to God and this earth, made by man therefore they are inadmissable as authoritative truth.

am i making sense here

[xanmad33]

Depends on your spiritual maturity, is the method of reception. For some, it is a feeling, for the few, it is a voice like Paul on the road of Damascus. It is your desire, sincerety, humilty, and obiedence that will stir your course for the answer.

You could list reference upon reference, at this time; it is matter of your spiritual maturity in receiving the Holy Spirit confirmation to the truth. That remains to be seen at this point. Remember, desire, hope, sincerety, humility, should be the true intent in earnestly seeking the Gospel of Christ.

I have posed valid argument after valid argument in a quest for truth.

Truth can withstand scrutiny.

Your posts to me are so full of pride and self ritcheousness, that I find it hard to take what you say to heart. If all you can resort to is making condecending remarks to me about my lack of faith, or my lack of humility as being my stumbling block, then I submit to you that maybe you are the one in need of a good look in the mirror.

[Misshalfway]

No I can't show you. I feel it so deeply. I feel the Spirit of the Lord burned into my heart. But no, I can't show you. No one can. That is God's job. Yes. It is exclusive! That is the point. God wants all of us to have our own exclusive knowledge. That is the relationship with God you were talking about before. You want us to prove it all to you. We can't. You can't prove your stuff to me. It will just go round and round with no resolution.

I am not saying there is nothing to trust in the earth. It rains. I trust that. I am just saying that the perfection is in the process of God -- not in a book. I don't trust the bible because you say it is true. I trust the Bible because God has given me spiritual witness that it is true. And beyond that he helps me understand and interpret. How do I know Joseph was a prophet? Because I listened to his story. Prayed and studied and asked God himself. He answered me with sweet, warm, burning in my soul that it was true. It is a knowledge that all the scientific, historical, earthy logic can't take away from me. Your feelings about the Savior, aren't they similar?

[Hemidakota]

Xan, my sense, that is not your true intention. Truth does not requies any scrutiny.

If I am filled with pride, I guess your baseless assumption is the same for the Savior when He responded to the Pharisees.

[Misshalfway]

Look. You came here stating that you had questions for LDS people. Are you here to understand the mind of an LDS person? To understand how and why we believe? Or are you here to prove it wrong and challenge us to prove it right?

If you came to understand..... then take it as an anthropologist would. Understand it objectively. If you have any desire at all to come to knowledge of what we believe to be true, then you can't do that work here on this forum. You can get information.....opinion. People can testify to you and try to show you why we believe what we believe. But truth you must get from God himself. That is an eternal principle for all truth through out all the earth. Man gets it right some of the time. But God gets it right all the time. This is our invitation to the world. Jesus came to the America's. He still calls prophets. He still reveals himself to man. He still gives commandments and revelation for the needs of us today. Come and learn of it. We offer the world more of the truth. So, come and learn and pray to know if it is true. Hopefully, you can open your heart to these ideas. If that isn't something you can do, then so be it. Let's be friends and BBQ!

[Dr T]

Hemi said,

Truth does not requies any scrutiny.

She said truth can stand up to scrutiny. Do you really think truth claims do not require scrutiny sir?

[xanmad33]

No I can't show you. I feel it so deeply. I feel the Spirit of the Lord burned into my heart. But no, I can't show you. No one can. That is God's job. Yes. It is exclusive! That is the point. God wants all of us to have our own exclusive knowledge. That is the relationship with God you were talking about before. You want us to prove it all to you. We can't. You can't prove your stuff to me. It will just go round and round with no resolution.

I am not saying there is nothing to trust in the earth. It rains. I trust that. I am just saying that the perfection is in the process of God -- not in a book. I don't trust the bible because you say it is true. I trust the Bible because God has given me spiritual witness that it is true. And beyond that he helps me understand and interpret. How do I know Joseph was a prophet? Because I listened to his story. Prayed and studied and asked God himself. He answered me with sweet, warm, burning in my soul that it was true. It is a knowledge that all the scientific, historical, earthy logic can take away from me. Your feelings about the Savior, aren't they similar?

He gave Joseph Smith the opposite whitness, so who is hearing from God?

But since we both believe in the Bible in it it indicates that truth is determined through knowledge and not prayer:

--This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

--correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:24-)

Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Luke, in his prologue to his gospel revealed how he determined the truth:

it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:3-4)

He didn't pray about what was true, he investigated the matters carefully.

God wants believers to be knowledgeable, especially regarding their faith. A lack of knowledge leads to apostasy and destruction, as God Himself said to Hosea, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledege."

[Flyonthewall]

But that's subjective because of the nature and the heart of man.

If I need to look to my own inner man, to my own heart for a feeling of confirmation of truth. The problem with that is that it makes the heart of man the authoritative truth source. The Bible is very clear about the nature of man’s heart.

“The Heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9

“He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool” Proverbs 28:26

According to scripture, not only can I not trust the unobservable heart you, I can’t even trust my own heart.

But then you may argue it is not the heart of man that reveals the truth, but the spirit that is manifest unto them and it brings me right back to these verses illistrating that there are many spirits, and not all are truthful:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” 1 Timothy 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel…let him be accursed” Galatians 1:8

“And no Marvel; for Satan Himself is transformed into an angel of Light.” II Corinthians 11:14

Scripture is clear, wdde cannot discern truth from what a spirit tells us. One particular spirit, Satan, who’s purpose is to deceive and devour (Revelation 12:9, 1 Peter 5:8), can transform himself into an angel of light. And demonic spirits can appear as angels from heaven who will preach a kind of gospel, (the false kind). We should not be opening our hearts to be influenced by such spirits, believing everything they teach or lead us to believe, but rather test them, lest we fall prey to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

I believe these claims need to be tested becasue the Bible reveals our hearts to be full of sin, desperately wicked and unworthy of trust. The fact that we are to open our hearts to the influence of spirits without testing these spirits is just downright dangerous.

Hmm. So because we are so full of sin, we cannot trust G_d when He reveals something to us, because we are too sinful? I'm not sure I follow. It is also said in Mark:

Mark 3: 28-29

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Pretty serious stuff if the Holy Ghost reveals something to you and you reject it.

I believe the Holy Ghost to be the Conveyor of truth, but what it comes down to is that intangible thing called faith.

Because Mormons here have already told me as much, not to mention it's part of your own doctrine correct?

We believe the Bible to be the word of G_d, as far as it is translated correctly. This is part of our faith. We do not deny anything the Bible says, we just read it differently than most "traditional Christians", because we have clarification on it's doctrines and teachings in the additional scriptures we have. Just because we say the Bible is not "inerrant", does not mean it is false. It just needs clarification on some things.

The Bible has conflicting references of different things, and there has been an attempt to make them fit the understanding of men.

Again, this is speculation to the nth degree. You are relying on your own corrupted books as authoratative on the BIbles reliability. Sounds like a walking contradiction to me.

The Bible's reliability is based on what? The validations of other men, part of the same sinful group that we are not to rely on. This is a contradiction to me. The Bible is true because men wrote it, men translated it, men claim it to be a valid historical document. Being a historical document has no bearing on the significance of the spiritual things contained within it.

These men that validate everything for you, their hearts are sinful and not to be trusted, which is the evidence you put forth that the Book of Mormon, and Pearl of Great Price are false.

Bottom line, the kingdom of G_d, will be built upon the rock of revelation through the Holy Ghost, not through man.

[Andrew777]

But then you may argue it is not the heart of man that reveals the truth, but the spirit that is manifest unto them and it brings me right back to these verses illistrating that there are many spirits, and not all are truthful:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils” 1 Timothy 4:1

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 1 John 4:1

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel…let him be accursed” Galatians 1:8

“And no Marvel; for Satan Himself is transformed into an angel of Light.” II Corinthians 11:14

Scripture is clear, wdde cannot discern truth from what a spirit tells us. One particular spirit, Satan, who’s purpose is to deceive and devour (Revelation 12:9, 1 Peter 5:8), can transform himself into an angel of light. And demonic spirits can appear as angels from heaven who will preach a kind of gospel, (the false kind). We should not be opening our hearts to be influenced by such spirits, believing everything they teach or lead us to believe, but rather test them, lest we fall prey to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons.

Again, this is speculation to the nth degree. You are relying on your own corrupted books as authoratative on the BIbles reliability. Sounds like a walking contradiction to me.

And this is what it boils down to insults...we don't worship the Heavenly Father or believe Christ is Saviour because we don't believe in the trinity -- instead we take heed to Satan, xanmadd can't be bothered to answer most of our questions since she's doing nothing but flaming the forum, and she believes that we worship the devil and are guided by demons. Our scripture is evil and was given through revelation by Satan's minions, at best it was written by a con-man.

I would like to thank you for your flaming xanmadd being a new convert myself. Each time I see the same old tired arguments and hear the wonderful replies from the people here and from scripture it draws me closer to a correct understanding of doctrine and God. "Who is it you have ridiculed and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!", Who is it xanmadd, you've blasphemed and ridiculed here, even going as far as to calling him the devil?

Some Bible verses about asking God and getting answers. Look at the italicized parts -- the lord isn't going to be sending Satan when we ask him for answers --

James 1:5 -- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7-8 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. (This one is a good one for Christian denominations that have been killing each other for hundreds of years)

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

John 16:23-24 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Isn't that wonderful!! We're promised a fullness of joy if we ask the Father in his name!

The Bible, the Book of Mormon, it all tells us to ask God. Will this matter to xanmadd? Of course not! The logic xanmadd is using -- Mormons are too decieved and too spiritually dead to realize that we're not praying to God and receiving guidance from the spirit, we're praying to Satan and receiving guidance from his devils. Some pastor that hates Mormons or website that despises us told her this. This conversation is stupid, some of us have to put up with this garbage from our own mothers & fathers.

[Hemidakota]

Hemi said,

She said truth can stand up to scrutiny. Do you really think truth claims do not require scrutiny sir?

Agreed Doctor T! After reread...’..gotta love those neuron gods in not have that collaborated cooperation.’ [Humor] Truth can withstand scrutiny.

My reasoning of what I typed, is based on our own ignorance with the corporeal Godhead or the gospel itself. Not only that, we allow academic arrogance to surface.

[skalenfehl]

It's not that I wish to remain on opposite sides, it's just that I have many questions regarding how you know your absolute truth is absolutely true

The test of truth, I have been encouraged to try in Moroni 10:5 will only work if the book of Mormon is True, how do you know the book of Mormon is true outside of Moroni 10:5?

There is no other way than through personal revelation. What greater witness can you have than from God Himself? This is how Peter knew that Christ was the Son of God. It was God who revealed it to him and not 'man'.

The test of Moroni 10:5 only works if the person prays already believing that it is a reliable test and a reliable promise. In praying the test of Moroni 10:5, you’ve already acknowledged that you believe in the God of the Book of Mormon, and you believe the book of Mormon to be a reliable truth source and the Test of Moroni 10:5 to be a promise of God which he will answer. These are the very things you should be testing, not already believing prior to the test.

All of these things I have tested. What greater test is there? Our God is the God of the whole earth, of both Jew and Gentile, of both Christian and Pagan, of all of Israel, including the children of Judah and the children of Joseph! Read the book of Ezekiel.

It has been inferred here already that everyone who prays the prayer in Moroni has received a ‘testimony’ that the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith is a prophet and that is your proof.

If the Book of Mormon is true, then doing as it directs (in Moroni 10:5) would produce the results promised, and the manifestation one would receive after applying the test would be from the Holy Spirit.

However, if the BoM is false, then Moroni 10:5 being part of the book is likewise false and an invalid means of finding out whether or not the book is true, and any manifestations received would then be coming from a demonic source,

That is exactly correct. "IF". But if the Book is true then it is a completely valid and true means of finding out would then be coming from our only Heavenly source--Father in Heaven!

Your claims are based on what Jospeh Smith said (and not what history shows) about there being a complete and "total apostasy" where the church died until he came and restored it in North America correct?

No. I suspect you have not yet read and understood the book of Isaiah and the book of Ezekiel. As I mentioned before, Isaiah is but one of the prophets who prophesied of the restoration. Read chapter 29 prayerfully and with your heart open to the Lord for understanding. However, Joseph Smith did confirm everything.

But the Bible says that Jesus called himself the Good Shepherd, what kind of a Good Shepherd would leave his entire flock unattended for 1800 years?

The Good Shephard never left his flock unattended. It is his flock who rejected Him. They mocked Him, they beat Him, They spat upon Him, they crucified Him. Then they mocked his apostles as well and eventually killed them all except John. His flock abandoned Him. Hence the apostacy. Read Isaiah. Isaiah foresaw this and wrote about it as I've mentioned before. However in the New Testament Christ did tell the people that he had other sheep that were not of this (Judah) fold.

John 10: 14-16

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The other sheep were the children descended of Joseph. (Read Ezekiel) Here is what Christ told His disciples in the Book of Mormon when he visited them after His resurrection:

3 Ne. 15: 12-24

12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.

13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

But! God in His infinite wisdom knew this from the beginning and that his children throughout the ages would still need a shepherd as we do today. Therefore He prepared a way for a restoration to take place. It took over 1,800 years for man to be ready for the restoration and evn then they were not. Had Christ tried to bring forth the restoration after His apostles were killed off, what would have happened to His new apostles and prophets? Look at what happened through the dark ages? The Spanish Inquisition is but one example of man's barbarism in the name of "religion".

It wasn't until the "esacpe from religious persecution" that the Lord was able to prepare the way. And even those who fled to the new land (North America) did the very same thing and were the very same hypocrites that they had left behind! They committed their own atrocities in the name of "religion". What a lost and fallen and apostate series of generations!

God's Word also says, "The gates of hell will not prevail against the kingdom of God," (Matt. 16:18). If a total apostacy took place, would that not make God a liar?

The gates of hell have yet to prevail against the kingdom of God. It hasn't yet and never will. You mistake the apostacy and the falling away of man for the kingdom of God.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says on pg. 57; “Joseph Smith in his first vision (1820) was told by Christ that all existing churches had gone astray, both in their teachings and in their practice, although they had "a form of godliness" (JS-H 1:18-19). Thus it was necessary for a "restoration" of the gospel to take place.”

That is correct. They had a form of "godliness", but they denied the power thereof as you are doing so now. The power of godliness is the authority to act in his name. The power and authority to receive revelation for the good of man--yea for his salvation. They all professed to be called of God, to be His voice on earth, but deny angels, deny revelation, deny the power and authority of a prophet.

Eph. 2: 19-21

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord

(continued.....)

[skalenfehl]

(continued...)

The dilemma with this theory comes in light of what D&C 7:1-8 says. It claims Smith was told in this vision that Peter, James and John never died.

If it's true that they hold the keys to the Gospel and it also true that they never died then it cannot be true that a complete apostasy took place.

Why couldn't the apostles have made sure that the priesthood was handed down to the Christians instead of waiting for it to get to such a degraded state?

Only John remained James and Peter were both martyred--James by the sword and Peter was hanged upside down. Read vs. 4 and 5 again. Peter did not desire to remain as John did. He desired to come speedily into God's kingdom. But that doesn't mean that he and James couldn't minister to John as Gabriel ministered to Christ in Gethsemene. Peter, James, and John did hold the keys, but the foundation of Christ's church had been obliterated by the people's hard hearts and unbelief. There was nobody worthy or believing to hand the keys to and if that had happened it would have made Isaiah's and Ezekiel's prophecy void.

With regard to Bible verses supporting all this, only if you take them completely out of context and do not regard the entiretly of scripture can you then make a case supporting the need for everything you listed.

Again, this is where we see the Bible's context in two different lights. It makes perfect sense to me. Isaiah makes perfect sense. Ezekiel and the other prophets make perfect sense to me. The words of a falling away and a restoration make perfect sense to me

[Flyonthewall]

Everything you have just said is your own exclusive belief about God. Everything.

(If you watched the video I posted the other day, that might make more sense)

You have basically said there is no concrete proof and that one cannot trust in anything in this entire world... therefore you cannot know unequivically that There is a God who has a son and that he is a distinct god.

You cannot know that God does not require The Bible to be perfect., as you cannot even prove it isn't.

You do not know Gods plan.

All these satements are your own personal beliefs, your own PERSONAL truths, they are not authoratative, they are exclusive.

What you have basically said is that the LDS know nothing for certain.

Therefore I can conclude it must be false.

You have no real argument for the validity of the claims your faith make if you cannot even attest to the validity of your faith books and prophet that make them.

If you read the Bible you would have an answer to those questions, it's all there.

You cannot even show me HOW you know it is God himself!

How do you really know the nature of God if you have no reliable text or prophets to show you?

How do you know there is a need for a prophet if you are not trusting in fallable man?

All your beliefs are exclusive in and of themselves.

All your statements are your belief about what can and cannot happen with regard to God and this earth, made by man therefore they are inadmissable as authoritative truth.

am i making sense here

Show me HOW you know your beliefs are true. But, you cannot use the testimonies of other men because they are sinful. No preachers, pastors, evangelists, or even scholars. They are all fallible. Oh, and you cannot use "feelings" either, because Satan has control of those to the extent that you cannot determine truth from lies.

You can't use the Bible either, because there are people that believe it is false, so you cannot use a false book to prove your beliefs either.

Your beliefs are exclusive to you and are based on man made philosophies.

Now with these guidelines, prove your beliefs!

Sounds kinda lop-sided, doesn't it?

We are not here to prove anything to you. We are here to explain what we believe. We provide scriptural references to show that our beliefs are founded in the Bible. You may not agree with our understanding of the Bible passages, but they are there. If you want proof, ask Heavenly Father for yourself, He is the only one that can provide the truth of spirtual things.

[Misshalfway]

He gave Joseph Smith the opposite whitness, so who is hearing from God?

But since we both believe in the Bible in it it indicates that truth is determined through knowledge and not prayer:

--This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

--correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, (2 Timothy 2:24-)

Test everything. Hold on to the good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Luke, in his prologue to his gospel revealed how he determined the truth:

it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you might know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:3-4)

He didn't pray about what was true, he investigated the matters carefully.

God wants believers to be knowledgeable, especially regarding their faith. A lack of knowledge leads to apostasy and destruction, as God Himself said to Hosea, "My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledege."

Not one soul here will dispute the need for knowledge. I must though, dispute your view that we don't need prayer.

You see we need both! We need faith.... and works. We need Christ's grace, and we need to constantly repent. We need revelation and we need books of scripture. We need study and we need prayer.

Who do you follow, God or man? It seems to me that you have convinced yourself that man actually has the ability to counsel God. Or that perhaps God leaves man to determine truth for himself. This is not biblical. Not even remotely. I don't need all the science. I don't need all the scholars with their phd's and other earthy qualifications. I appreciate their efforts. If the spirit confirms their words, then I will believe them. But I don't need them to confirm my faith.

It is clear that you are not hearing my posts clearly. You seem to pick and choose and distort what I am saying. You pick the scriptures to confirm your position. So much of what you have said is so close to what we believe -- some of it not so much. But I don't think you want to see any common points or even concede that you see why we might interpret things the way we do. I have seen this so many times before, I hope that you will forgive me my directness. I have my beliefs. They are as dear to me as anything. I thought you were here to ask questions. Now I wonder if you are here to preach to us..... to show us the error of our ways. Either way, I don't see you making any attempt to understand -- even if you disagree. And I don't sense any desire or longing in you to find truth. I think you are happy with what truth you have in your life. And I am sure you do a lot of good in the world because of your beliefs. I love the Savior. You love the Savior. That may have to be enough for now.

[Andrew777]

I'd be careful calling the Holy Spirit a spirit of the devil xanmadd:

Mark 3:29-30 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

[Hemidakota]

And this is what it boils down to insults...we don't worship the Heavenly Father or believe Christ is Saviour because we don't believe in the trinity -- instead we take heed to Satan, xanmadd can't be bothered to answer most of our questions since she's doing nothing but flaming the forum, and she believes that we worship the devil and are guided by demons. Our scripture is evil and was given through revelation by Satan's minions, at best it was written by a con-man.

I would like to thank you for your flaming xanmadd being a new convert myself. Each time I see the same old tired arguments and hear the wonderful replies from the people here and from scripture it draws me closer to a correct understanding of doctrine and God. "Who is it you have ridiculed and blasphemed? Against whom have you raised your voice and lifted your eyes in pride? Against the Holy One of Israel!", Who is it xanmadd, you've blasphemed and ridiculed here, even going as far as to calling him the devil?

Some Bible verses about asking God and getting answers. Look at the italicized parts -- the lord isn't going to be sending Satan when we ask him for answers --

James 1:5 -- If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Matthew 7:7-10 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:13-14 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 15:7-8 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. (This one is a good one for Christian denominations that have been killing each other for hundreds of years)

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

John 16:23-24 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Isn't that wonderful!! We're promised a fullness of joy if we ask the Father in his name!

The Bible, the Book of Mormon, it all tells us to ask God. Will this matter to xanmadd? Of course not! The logic xanmadd is using -- Mormons are too decieved and too spiritually dead to realize that we're not praying to God and receiving guidance from the spirit, we're praying to Satan and receiving guidance from his devils. Some pastor that hates Mormons or website that despises us told her this. This conversation is stupid, some of us have to put up with this garbage from our own mothers & fathers.

This thread reminds me of the Lighthouse group out of Texas. If you don’t know who they are, don’t bother. It sad to see such people claiming themselves believers of Christ, let alone a follower.

This is how they employee their own agenda: at first, the tactic of the sheep suited wolf stands in the midst of among the sheep’s, seeking a line questions while later after being cornered by their own lack of biblical understanding, begin the defecation process of tramping the gospel, BOM, and members of the CFB. However, during one of those brief encounters on another forum, when the ‘hurling process of tramping on the most important figure of our dispensation’, ‘I manage to leave the house [thread] and thus removed my shoes’ at the curb. My sorrows remains to this day.