The Harmful Effect Of Mormonanity

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 13 2004, 09:34 PM

There may be some argument to the idea that the Church can be emotionally draining and therefore damaging to the health of an individual.  Few churches that I have attended have anywhere near as much peer pressure to conform and perform.  For example, tonight my family had a nice BBQ over at my dad's house.  My brother-in-law had to leave fairly early to go "home teaching".  He didn't want to go home teaching, nor does he care about it.  But his EQP and his new companion put the pressure on him to be a "righteous" man by leaving his family and visiting others. 

I wanted to respond to this part of your statement, Jason, because for a very long time, that is the way our church was.

For a long time, we had church 3 times a week, and active members were expected to attend. In between times, we had Women's Department, Zioneers, Zion's League (weekly youth meetings), weekend retreats at campgrounds with youth from other branches, etc.

With lay priesthood, many men were called and expected to do weekly visits, have priesthood meetings, etc.

Our church had a very similar feel to the LDS in that manner. The main difference (besides theology) was that we did not have an active missionary program. The seventies were self-sustaining, and were sent on missions by World Church.

As far as the peer pressure to perform and conform, I think of what Zion will be like when it is established, and the work it takes to bring it to fruition. We are called to be, to live, that community right now in order for it to become reality in the future, and that calls for full-time commitment to the cause. That other churches don't require a higher degree of commitment indicates to me that they are not concerned about building the Kingdom of God as Christ commanded. (Hence one of the reasons they are not the true church.)

All that said, people should do these things because they want to, not because they feel forced into it. Doing it for the wrong reason is just as bad as not doing it at all. IMO.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 13 2004, 05:11 PM

I realized that being LDS was detrimental to my health, family and soul.

Recently a poster, who asked her membership to be withdrawn from the records of the Church, told us about how harmful LDSitude was her well-being. It is a refrain heard regularly among those who become antagonistically disaffected with the Church. I have no idea what Naomi is referring to in her own particular case, and I would think that because the Church, any church is made of of human beings, there could be some real offense by another or my a local leader that could possibly have upset someone. But, in general and actual practice, is there something about the Church that is truly detrimental to the health, family and soul of it's members?

My personal take is that some people can't accept responsibility for their own thoughts and actions and out of weakness, make themselves a victim. IT happened to me. THEY did this to me. SOMETHING besides my own behavior and thoughts causes me unhappiness. I am not an agent unto myself but rather am acted upon...

Take the bit about health: find me a healthier Church?

Take the bit about family: find me a family-friendlier Church?

Take the bit about soul: even if you don't buy the restoration angel, Mormons do what even non-Mormons believe is the single requirement for salvation of the soul - accepting Christ as their Savior.

If anyone can tell be what about the Church is harmful, I'd be very impressed... but I'm not hold my non-victimized breath.

What may be very healthy for some may not be for others. If there is one truth about human beings is that we are all DIFFERENT in our psychological make up. Since no one can enter the mind and soul of another, none of us can know what affect mormonism has on another. Obviously, mormonism is good for some, and may not be for others. To assume that because it has been good for you, it MUST be good for everyone, is an error.

It would be like asking you to explain why Catholocism or any -ism is not as good for you as mormonism. You can point out all the objections you might have to living catholocism, but that would mean nothing to someone who finds catholocism quite pleasant and healthy.

I find some aspects of mormonism quite healthy for me, and others completely unacceptable. I have tried to integrate the good stuff with other philosophies that some mormons might not like, but which I find worthwhile.

In the end, no two people ACTUALLY share the same religion if you examine what they believe in detail. For example, my mother- in- law (as much as I like her) believes it is a complete violation of the sabath to watch any TV on Sundays. We both call ourselves mormons, but certainly do not actually have the same 'religion' when you get down to the details.

[Snow]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 13 2004, 09:34 PM

There may be some argument to the idea that the Church can be emotionally draining and therefore damaging to the health of an individual.  Few churches that I have attended have anywhere near as much peer pressure to conform and perform.  For example, tonight my family had a nice BBQ over at my dad's house.  My brother-in-law had to leave fairly early to go "home teaching".  He didn't want to go home teaching, nor does he care about it.  But his EQP and his new companion put the pressure on him to be a "righteous" man by leaving his family and visiting others. 

Jason

Hi Jason, here are my comment for what they are worth:

I disagree that he didn't want to go home teaching. People wind of doing what they want to do based upon what they think they will get out of their choices. Doing your home teaching results in certain things, not doing your home teaching results in certain things. On balance he doing home teaching resulted, in his mind, in the most "utility" for him. He may not have liked his choice or wished for other ones, but he chose to maximize his outcomes.

Again, I think that those who feel this way do so because of the tremendous feeling of liberation when one has left the church.  When one is left to make decisions on their own, without the leadership and membership directing them, one begins to feel like they have been picked on.  (My take on it anyway.)

When you put it that way, it completely robs man of the nobility inherent in being human. I am LDS. I make my choice. Period. Nobody directs me. Other's state their case; I give them the credence I think they deserve.

"Take the bit about health: find me a healthier Church?"

Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witness come to mind.

You may be right. There is evidence that supports the healthy aspect of being Mormon. Do you know of any real evidence to show that 7th Days and JW's are healthy(ier)?

"Take the bit about soul: even if you don't buy the restoration angel, Mormons do what even non-Mormons believe is the single requirement for salvation of the soul - accepting Christ as their Savior."

Again, when one can make their peace with God without someone else telling them how to do it, the experience becomes liberating. 

And again, are we mice or men? No one tells me what to do. I chose, no one else.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 14 2004, 01:22 PM

Funny that somebody's thoughts and feelings are not good enough for some.

Take the bit about health: find me a healthier Church?

In alphabetical order, by ZIP code, by city, or any church that you are not a part of or that people like you don't frequent.

I'm sorry. You're going to have to rephrase that to make some sense before I can answer that.

I'll wait.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 14 2004, 12:41 PM

You should be glad your family is still so close. I'm not saying that most families fall apart when someone leaves the church (although that happens sometimes), but by the very nature of it, there will be strain. Every Mormon wants to be with their family for eternity. If someone leaves the church, that dream is gone, in their eyes. It can cause much unhappiness. I don't want to get personal, but I'm sure your mother isn't as happy as she could be if all your siblings were members. This seems unfair to me, because in her mind she is going to be punished indirectly because her kids weren't members.

My eldest brother made his decision when he was 18, he was ex'd over something trivial and stupid..because he had a bad, BAD temper (as do all of us in my family)...he became angry against the church, would try and "show us" what we were doing wrong..then he became liberal..nuff said

lol!!

when my father died, all 5 of my siblings upheld the LDS doctrine of the afterlife..my brother paul to this day will not deny his testimony..he, like a few on here, was very offended by the actions of two men at church when he was a teenager...now he has children and is seriously pondering coming back to church...my sister was YW president before she went through a nasty divorce..instead of finding solace at church, she felt judged...she admits that it was nothing anyone said to her, or any way she was treated...she was turned off because the LDS men she looked at for dating were more interested in BYU coeds who were ready to breed...i have another brother David who became extremely active in the church while my brother Jamie was on his mission...he too was offended by the actions of one man at church..so he stopped going...then he fell back into his old habits..he still professes an utter belief in the church, as do all of my siblings (even my oldest brother has admitted that he was wrong...he's just too lazy to think about coming back)

as for how my mom feels...She has stated that eternity is a long time...and that she does not know what the outcome is going to be..but she can't judge her children...she just loves them...

now...that doesn't mean there's not any good natured arguing when we get together...it used to be about religion...when my oldest brother was so bitter...my mom refused to be in the room for those "topics"...but now he's calmed down, but is still liberal..so you can only guess what the arguments are about nowadays...

and our family will still be eternal..even if my siblings aren't doing their best right now...i will always be sealed to my parents...i will always be sealed to my siblings...just because a few stray, doesn't break the bonds of eternity...

[Snow]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 14 2004, 04:25 AM

But, in general and actual practice, is there something about the Church that is truly detrimental to the health, family and soul of it's members?

I've heard lots of ex-members talk about how they wish their fathers would have spent more time with them instead of spending their time with church-related activities. My in-laws, while working in the temple every weekend, seemed to have little spare time to see any of their grandkids. They are no longer doing that job, so they have a bit more spare time to spend with family.

Then comes the issue of what happens to family bonds when someone leaves the church. Some families are OK with it, but it seems like things are never the same from the viewpoint of the family member who stays in the church. Mothers and fathers are heartbroken because, in their minds, the entire family won't be together in the hereafter. Even if you are only concerned with the effects the church has on its members, and not people who leave the church, they will no longer be together forever with their families, even if they do everything correctly and live righteously.

Then there is the guilt of not being able to measure up to expectations. Some people feel this.

One other example I can think of: Can you imagine if you were a woman who is infertile? Think of how many times you would be reminded of that fact. Basically, the church teaches that the woman's role in the whole eternal picture is to bear and raise children. I know that you all believe that the woman would be fertile in the hereafter, but there is pressure in the here and now. I know this from firsthand knowledge. I chose not to have a child until after 30. People just couldn't keep their nose out of mine and my husband's business!

I'm pretty sure you won't consider any of these valid reasons, Snow. But those are my opinions, and the opinions of many other former Mormons (and actually, probably a number of present members as well!).

Hi Shanstress,

It's not that those are invalid or valid reasons, I just don't think they are very helpful in answering the question I posed.

About family time: I think a better way to look at is is not to ask whether on not some people should spend more or less time with their kids but rather to ask, as a result of Church involvement, are families better off. Participating in any activity necessitates forgoing something else. Personally, I think that runing the Church, as the members do, is a worthwhile tradeoff and there are so many other family friendly benefits that on balance, families are much better off, not worse, for their Church involvement.

As far as families being split apart when a family member chooses to leave or is ex'd... there are consequences to behavior. If my kids were to engage in behavior that required excommunication, that is a choice they would make. They would have to live with the consequences. It is absurd that in these days people want to act anyway they want and expect people to ignore it. Religion is a moderating influence on man's negative tendencies. I think that it is the Church of God, of course I would be distressed if my kids left it. By the way, one of my sisters has left the Church. I don't think I have ever mentioned it to her. She is treated absolutely no differently than any of those who haven't left.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 14 2004, 06:59 PM

But, in general and actual practice, is there something about the Church that is truly detrimental to the health, family and soul of it's members?

It's not that those are invalid or valid reasons, I just don't think they are very helpful in answering the question I posed.

I understand what you're saying, Snow. But your question was whether there is something about the church that is detrimental to health, family, and soul. I do think I answered your question.

Maybe not in your family, or Fairie's family - you guys are very fortunate, and I'm truly happy for you. But I know of many cases where family members are truly miserable because those they love have strayed from the church. You better believe that is detrimental to their mental health!

I didn't even get into the issue of husbands and wives getting divorced. That happens as well. Divorce is not very good for the mental health either.

I would like to acknowledge that the church can be very positive for some families. And of course because of not having alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, it is very physically healthy. Depending on the member, it may be very psychologically healthy. It just depends on which angle you're looking from. And I TOTALLY agree with Cal - what's good for someone psychologically may not be good for others.

[Guest Ruthie-chan]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason+Jun 13 2004, 10:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ExMormon-Jason @ Jun 13 2004, 10:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Seventh-day Adventists and Jehovah's Witness come to mind.

You don't know much about JW's do you?

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jun 14 2004, 04:25 AM

I didn't even get into the issue of husbands and wives getting divorced.  That happens as well.  Divorce is not very good for the mental health either.

Divorce is unhealthy no matter what religion you practice.

Divorce is also only acceptable in my eyes when there's abuse. It's far too easy to divorce someone when things get rough.

My father was ex'd for good reason.

I never liked him before, now though, he's pretty cool.

This is because he realized that there ARE consequences to his actions.

He's now taking responsibility for them, and working towards becoming more intune with the spirit and a better person.

He hopes to someday be rebaptized. He's been working with his bishop as well.

Basically through his excommunication, my father grew up.

Before he was childish and thought that he could do no wrong, that he was so intelligent, more so than anyone else.

Some people when they're ex'd become bitter and anti-mormon.

But for my father, it was the only way for him to see that he was in the wrong and that HE needed to change his ways, not the people around him.

[Jason]

"You don't know much about JW's do you?"

Gee, Ruth, why don't you share your vast expertise with me?

[Tr2]

I never liked him before, now though, he's pretty cool.

So you only like your father because he is doing what you want him to? I tried, but was unable to find that in the bible. But mine is kind of old. I was always taught that I had to love, honor, and respect my father even though he was a womanizer, drunk and a gambler. Are you missing those pages in your bible? I'll gladly fax you them if you need.

Some people when they're ex'd become bitter and anti-mormon

I'd say most, who become bitter and anti-mormon, do so before they ever leave the church.

[Ray]

Maybe not in your family, or Fairie's family - you guys are very fortunate, and I'm truly happy for you. But I know of many cases where family members are truly miserable because those they love have strayed from the church. You better believe that is detrimental to their mental health!

Do you also suppose that people leaving the Church is detrimental to the mental health of our heavenly Father? Or our Lord? And do you also suppose that they are miserable?

I think it’s fair to say that they are saddened by the choices their loved ones have made, but I think it’s a reach to say that it’s detrimental to their mental health or that the choices of their loved ones make them feel miserable.

On a more personal level, I am the only person in my parent’s family who has accepted the Church, which definitely affected and still affects the relationship I now have with my parents and siblings. But my mental health isn’t diminished, I'm not miserable, and I’m psychologically okay with all of it because I know that they must do what they feel is right.

What would be unhealthy would be to think that I can only be happy if everyone else around me does what I think they should do, or if I was dependent on the actions of other people to make me happy.

[shanstress70]

Do you also suppose that people leaving the Church is detrimental to the mental health of our heavenly Father?  Or our Lord?

No, I don't think so. IF the church is true (of course I don't believe it is), I don't believe that God's mental health would be affected by it. If so, he would be at the end of his rope because only 12 million of the 6 billion people on earth belong to it (a large percentage of them being inactive). Isn't that something like .02%? (Sorry, I'm not that great at math!) I don't think God is that fragile!

And do you also suppose that they are miserable?

Do you mean the ex-members? I think they are far from miserable about being out of the church, but I think there are definitely some who are distraught because of what their family thinks they are doing to them in the eternal scheme of things. Thankfully I don't have this problem b/c my family isn't LDS. Personally, I'm happier than I've been in a long time!

I think it’s fair to say that they are saddened by the choices their loved ones have made, but I think it’s a reach to say that it’s detrimental to their mental health

I have to disagree with you. You being a male (I hope) probably can't understand the bond with a mother and her children. I am not speaking for all women, as some are more logical, but some mothers would unquestionably be 'miserable' thinking that it is possible to be with their children for eternity, but because of actions of her children, won't be able to. It's an emotional, not logical issue.

[Ray]

Do you mean the ex-members?

No, I meant: Do you think our Lord and our heavenly Father are miserable about their loved ones leaving the Church? … or for not joining the Church? … or for not embracing the gospel?

The attitude of ex- or non-members is obvious… they don’t see any value in these things. Of course they would not be miserable, at least not until they realized the opportunities they had passed up.

some mothers would unquestionably be 'miserable' thinking that it is possible to be with their children for eternity, but because of actions of her children, won't be able to. It's an emotional, not logical issue.

It is my contention that mothers and anyone else who accepts the gospel are not and will not be miserable at all. After all, THEY will be able to go visit their children any time they want, it’s just that their children will not be able to go visit them.

[shanstress70]

No, I meant:  Do you think our Lord and our heavenly Father are miserable about their loved ones leaving the Church?  … or for not joining the Church?  … or for not embracing the gospel?

OK, then I answered that in the first part of my post anyway.

Of course they would not be miserable, at least not until they realized the opportunities they had passed up.

I could say that the other way around. Something about you realizing all the opportunities you passed up if the church is not true: 10% of your salary that could have gone to more helpful things, all the time you put into church activities that you could have spent on other things, and last but not least... a delicious glass of iced tea! :)

After all, THEY will be able to go visit their children any time they want, it’s just that their children will not be able to go visit them.

I love my mom to pieces, but I choose not to live in the same town with her. Maybe this would be a good thing! Heh, this is a joke, Ray!

[Guest Starsky]

I believe there are certain elements of society ....no matter whether in a religion or outside of it....which are totally detrimental to mental health.

Gossips are one. I believe some use their authority to perpetrate gossip....manipulate the situation to accomadate their own place. Others without authority use it as a power to manipulate from the bottom up..

Another element that is detrimental in society/church (which btw is nothing more than a micro society)... is elite clicks....you find them everywhere....even here on this board....they tend to put theirselves above others....grouping together....to have power....destroying the natural flora...so to speak, of natural interaction...on an honest level...

And another one.....is dishonesty....with self and others...

All of these are elements in church/society which are detrimental to mental health....and the health of a society ....

These are usually the reason people cannot stay in the church.....happily.

[Ray]

I think some people are trying to say that there are certain actions and attitudes from people in the Church, and in the world, that make life… shall we say… challenging. But I’m saying that the actions and attitudes of other people should not be detrimental to the mental health of somebody else, nor should they make somebody else miserable, nor should they be psychologically damaging to somebody else. Not unless those other people allow the actions and attitudes of other people to affect them that way, that is. But we can live in this world in peace, a good conscience, good mental health, a joyful outlook, and an overall good sense of well being no matter what anybody else does, because each one of us can access the power that will enable us to overcome all things.

Yes, certain things can make us sad sometimes, and they should, but those things are not detrimental to our mental health, nor psychologically damaging, nor conducive to misery. A person in good mental health should feel sadness, because that is sometimes a good and healthy emotion to have, but those “challenges” should not “scar us for life”.

I hope you all can now understand what I was trying to convey and agree.