just a quickie

[deblldo]

hi everyone,

probably sounds like a daft question but can some one please tell me what the word begotten means? As in jesus was Gods only begotten son?

thanks in advance,

debs.

[Aphrodite]

It means to physically Father a child. Like, Jacob begat John..it means he Fathered him. So Jesus was the only PHYSICALLY Fathered child that Heavely Father had.

[deblldo]

Hi

thanks for answering, ok so with that in mind, as lds believe we were all spirit children before we came to earth. so how if not physically are we Gods literal spirit children? I mean have we always been in heaven?

hope this question makes sense.

thanks again.

debs.

[Dr T]

Hey debs,

It actually means "unique" not physically fathered. See here for a better explanation What does the Bible mean when it says Jesus is the only begotten Son?

[Hemidakota]

'Begotten' or Monogenace [Greek] - means single of its kind, used of only sons or daughters relationship to their parents.

Yes, the Savior was fathered by GOD and part mortal through Mary who was of the House of David. Christ is the only mortal flesh that walked the earth, imparted direct gene pool from the FATHER.

Side note, this is why I do say, Adam and Eve did not have that same vestige.

[Gwen]

just an fyi :) i think there are several different interpritations of the meaning with that. dr t is not lds and thus may have a different answer than the lds or even another faith will. not to say he can't answer, it's great to know how others understand things.

i think if you want answers to these questions from the lds perspective you should visit Mormon.org and look around.

[Guest tomk]

'Begotten' or Monogenace [Greek] - means single of its kind, used of only sons or daughters relationship to their parents.

Yes, the Savior was fathered by GOD and part mortal through Mary who was of the House of David. Christ is the only mortal flesh that walked the earth, imparted direct gene pool from the FATHER.

Side note, this is why I do say, Adam and Eve did not have that same vestige.

Can someone explain to me why Christ cannot still be the ONLY BEGOTTEN under these parameters?

Heavenly Father + Mary = Jesus Christ

Heavenly Father + Heavenly Mother = All of our spirits, plus the physcial bodies of Adam and Eve.

Notice that:

Heavenly Father + Mary = Jesus Christ

STILL makes Christ a unique creation!!!!!!!

The following is not such a "unique" thing, IMHO:

Heavenly Father + Heavenly Mother = All of our spirits, plus the physcial bodies of Adam and Eve.

Why can't Adam and Eve have parents of their physcial bodies? And why can't Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother be those parents?

[Hemidakota]

IMHO, I try not to use that term unique for the Savior. I hold this elder brother with great reverence Tom. Now, that is my own opinion not doctrinal or to be considered such. Though, I still use the term for the Saints - unique children.

Being the ‘Only Begotten in the flesh [Jehovah]’, Heavenly Father cannot lie. If there are any other children on this earth, we need to replace the term, Only Begotten, with something of the order of being part GOD and part mortal , Jehovah was the chosen one to be the Savior. The term 'ONLY', means just one and no other stands beside, who was fathered by GOD in this mortality.

Now, not even Moses, Abraham, or even a latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith recognizes both Adam and Eve had a Celestial birth. However, there is purpose on why this happen.

[Guest tomk]

IMHO, I try not to use that term unique for the Savior. I hold this elder brother with great reverence Tom. Now, that is my own opinion not doctrinal or to be considered such. Though, I still use the term for the Saints - unique children.

Being the ‘Only Begotten in the flesh [Jehovah]’, Heavenly Father cannot lie. If there are any other children on this earth, we need to replace the term, Only Begotten, with something of the order of being part GOD and part mortal , Jehovah was the chosen one to be the Savior. The term 'ONLY', means just one and no other stands beside, who was fathered by GOD in this mortality.

Now, not even Moses, Abraham, or even a latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith recognizes both Adam and Eve had a Celestial birth. However, there is purpose on why this happen.

I don't get it.

What are you trying to say?

Can you be a bit more clear?

[Hemidakota]

Which part?

[Guest tomk]

IMHO, I try not to use that term unique for the Savior.

What term are you saying you try not to use?

I hold this elder brother with great reverence Tom. Now, that is my own opinion not doctrinal or to be considered such. Though, I still use the term for the Saints - unique children.

I reverence him, too. The above (by me) is speculation. Sorry if I did not make that clear.

I'm asking for links to something online that state Adam and Eve were NOT created by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Inferring that from the fact that Christ is referred to as the "Only Begotten" is not enough for me (at this point, at least).

Being the ‘Only Begotten in the flesh [Jehovah]’, Heavenly Father cannot lie.

In nothing I've said have I tried to insinuate Heavenly Father is lying.

If there are any other children on this earth, we need to replace the term, Only Begotten, with something of the order of being part GOD and part mortal , Jehovah was the chosen one to be the Savior. The term 'ONLY', means just one and no other stands beside, who was fathered by GOD in this mortality.

Now, not even Moses, Abraham, or even a latter-day prophet, Joseph Smith recognizes both Adam and Eve had a Celestial birth. However, there is purpose on why this happen.

To what statements, by the above, are you referring?

Spell-it-out for me, cuz nothing you've said seems to make sense.

I say that my speculation makes the most sense. That Adam and Eve's bodies were made by Heavenly Father and Mother, the same way a husband and wife bring about physical bodies. Why does that offend?

[Hemidakota]

1] We sometime place a label on Him, displacing Him outside of the affinity of FATHER’s progeny.

2] There is no known doctrine outside of what was said by President Young and Elder Pratt stating they are direct offspring of our Heavenly paternal parents. Unless, they both personally seen this happen, the doctrine still stands as written in Moses [Genesis], Abraham, and what was transcribed by Joseph Smith. There is paper that Richard Draper wrote stating the same.

What answer I received concerning this, is for my own edification regarding this subject. We know that a prophet and his 14 Apostles are entitled to receive revelation based on his authoritian line. It is not problem on whether we accept this or not but more or less of further our own spiritual understanding and knowledge 'what was' and 'why'. In understanding this aspect, now gives a deeper meaning, what really happen before GOD. Again, there is a purpose for this as I see it. Yes, we do know it gives meaning on man and woman should not be seperated and so forth, but that is not just the 'whole story'. I could spell it out here but it may disturb most here and perhaps, this is why is not written with more clarity in the text. I can understand why.

Tom, I am not stating that you, calling Heavenly Father a liar. I would if this was the case. "Prove me..." At this point, HE is not a liar. It is clearly our own lack of understanding why.

3] Remove the term ONLY BEGOTTEN from the text. If Adam and Eve are direct offspring of both FATHER and Heavenly Mother, then we need to remove this phrase from the works.

If it doesn't make sense or there is no feelings otherwise [the spark], it is not needed for you at this time and there is nothing wrong with that.

Hopefully that helps.

[Guest tomk]

...

...

3] Remove the term ONLY BEGOTTEN from the text. If Adam and Eve are direct offspring of both FATHER and Heavenly Mother, then we need to remove this phrase from the works.

...

...

If it doesn't make sense or there is no feelings otherwise [the spark], it is not needed for you at this time and there is nothing wrong with that.

Hopefully that helps.

It does help. And thank you.

It is regarding #3 above, that I question. Not to take away from the Savior or His mission, or His unique attributes, both from Father and earthly mother.

That is MY point -- Adam and Eve having the parentage I describe does NOT take away from the "ONLY BEGOTTEN" status of the Son. You say it does. I say it doesn't.

Where do the brethren unequivocally say Adam and Eve's parentage CANNOT be what I suggest it is?

To my knowledge, they have been silent on the subject. Show me otherwise, and I will disabuse myself of this notion once and for all.

I agree, the Holy Ghost has not spoken to me (yet) concerning this matter. Right now my "theory" makes a lot of sense to me. It makes more sense to me than telling me "they weren't made that way."

I don't know how much this impacts my salvation.

From day to day, my focus is not on Adam and Eve's physical origins, but on following Christ. I do reverence Him as the only begotten. My theory about Adam and Eve (which a friend told me about, I did not come up with it myself) is no barrier to that relationship with my Jesus.

Can you quote some sources that will help me understand?

[Hemidakota]

Hold one...I need to find the article. Richard went into greater details on this topic since it raised some 'eyebrows' within the inner circle of the LDS academic ring. I concur with Draper's accession on his findings. This come about to answer some earlier questions on rib removal and why Adam supposely was alone.

Disturbing is revealing the first Jeu of all FATHERS. Most could not grasp it or understand where we are in the grand scheme of eternal life. Our known thinking about our universe is completely thrown out. Reasoning? You are now viewing from the outside in and looking up to a grander purpose of life. Then looking down to see where we come from. Giving a broader understanding to what Abraham's telling about the intelligences. Last, it gives a greater clarity on our corporeal form and what is within, as Cleon noted in his talk. I feel, he knew it also.

[Hemidakota]

Tom, here is Richard's article: The Creation of Humankind, and Allegory?: A Note on Abraham 5:7, 14–16

Take a quick gander....

[WillowTheWhisp]

According to Genesis the physical body of Adam was created out of the dust of the earth and the physical body of Eve was created out of a rib from Adam. This is either actually factual or it is symbolic. If it's factual then Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother didn't beget those bodies. If it's symbolic then I believe it is significantly stressed to emphasise that this creation was different to the begetting which took place subsequently.

[Dr T]

My 2 cents is that Jesus was unique in that he was eternally God and took on humanity for salvation of sinful humanity. Not unique as in all children are unique. We are seperate and distinct beings from Jesus.

[Hemidakota]

I could delve into a subject concerning Noah's Deluge, when I was researching out an question someone asked about fresh water fish, which took me 18-months to receive an answer. What happen after that incident, I laughed at some at Ey-L forum and told them to stop thinking the earth as a static model. LOL

Some answers take years, some months, some the same day. I keep chalking this to our own spiritual maturity in receiving the answer.

[Guest tomk]

Tom, here is Richard's article: The Creation of Humankind, and Allegory?: A Note on Abraham 5:7, 14–16

Take a quick gander....

From that article:

Brigham Young also rejected the biblical account. He told the Saints, "When you tell me that Father Adam was made as we make adobes from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale." He went on to explain that "Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given them to propagate their species."4

I've heard this before, but I thought it was just wild speculation. This really came from Brigham Young?

Of course this still does not throw out my theory.

I will continue reading....

Later statements show that he continued to hold this view. In August of 1842 he asked, "What was the design of the Almighty in making man? It was to exalt him to be as God."9 His language suggests he viewed Adam as made, not conceived and born.

Hmmmm.....

Now my theory begins to fall apart?

Some have argued that Joseph Smith hinted at another understanding of the text in his 16 June 1844 talk when he asked, "Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way."14 However, Joseph Smith was not looking at Adam's creation; he was teaching about the plurality of the Gods. Though one could argue that Joseph's thought would include Adam, it does not prove the point.15

This was the foundation for my theory.

Clearly, Brigham Young, like Parley P. Pratt, took Moses' account in an allegorical vein, insisting that " God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works, and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. . . . There exist fixed laws and regulations by which the elements are fashioned . . . and this process of creation is from everlasting to everlasting."

Hmmmm....

It would seem they don't DECLARE IT TO BE SO, but they don't necessarily DENY IT TO BE SO, either.

[Hemidakota]

I understand.

Plurality of GODs makes sense to me. But I see it more or less, there other Heavenly Parents that are achieving the same for there progeny throughout the our own universe.

[deblldo]

Hi,

thanks again for your answers. I think i understand now. you lost me a little bit towards the end lol. but i like to think that He was "begotten" or "unique" when He was chosen to become our saviour and took on God in the flesh.

thanks again,

debs.

[Hemidakota]

Apologize for half-hazard answers.

[tiancum]

All of Christianity believes that God is our Father. How they interpret the scriptures is..well, the reason for so many different Christian religions.