Discovering Truth

[Misshalfway]

Lots of conversations lately about how we are to determine truth. Some say search your emotions. Some say science. Some say bible scholars. Some say biblical proof is the only way. Some say archeology. Some say we shouldn't trust our own feelings but that we should rely on our intellect. Some say logic. Some say following the Spirit is not the way to know.

I was reading today and came across these scriptures:

Matt 16: 13-17

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Even Jesus himself, felt that relying on the arm of flesh was less reliable than communication from God.

[Canuck Mormon]

I love to play devil's advocate.

What if you feel you don't get an answer from God? What if you feel nothing? Then what do you base your belief on?

For me, it's a combination of both science and spirituality. Science knows a lot of stuff, but they don't have all the answers. This is where God comes in for me. Scientists are discovering new things everyday, but they will never have all the answers.

[Misshalfway]

Volley to Canuck....

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God? D&C 6:23

[Adeipho]

interferance by Adeipho....

Alma 30:46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

D&C 93:26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He breceived a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

I could go on and on and on, but my two cents is that when we dont "feel" the spirit prompting us or telling us if something is true or not, then it is because we have not sought dilligently enough. I do not mean that you wont recieve an answer without sweating bullets of sweat after a 9 hour prayer....I mean that if you pray and dont recieve an answer, then perhaps more is required. Perhaps a fast with prayer is desired of the Lord. Perhaps the answer is comming but in the Lords own time and all you need to do is be patient and be still.

Looking at things scientificly is great, however if you can find the answer that way then why did you get worked up in the first place? God has made the answer clear and knowable to our natural eye....but dont forget, while science is never wrong---scientists are wrong on a pretty regular basis.

[Adeipho]

interferance by Adeipho....

Alma 30:46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

D&C 93:26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He breceived a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

I could go on and on and on, but my two cents is that when we dont "feel" the spirit prompting us or telling us if something is true or not, then it is because we have not sought dilligently enough. I do not mean that you wont recieve an answer without sweating bullets of sweat after a 9 hour prayer....I mean that if you pray and dont recieve an answer, then perhaps more is required. Perhaps a fast with prayer is desired of the Lord. Perhaps the answer is comming but in the Lords own time and all you need to do is be patient and be still.

Looking at things scientificly is great, however if you can find the answer that way then why did you get worked up in the first place? God has made the answer clear and knowable to our natural eye....but dont forget, while science is never wrong---scientists are wrong on a pretty regular basis.

I know what it is like to pray and feel that your prayer gets no closer to Heaven than the top of your forhead. I know the numbing feeling that perhaps you are on mute and Heaven has turned a deaf ear to you. But, you must not stop crying out to the Lord! He hears us, and will not forsake us.

[Guest tomk]

Lots of conversations lately about how we are to determine truth. Some say search your emotions. Some say science. Some say bible scholars. Some say biblical proof is the only way. Some say archeology. Some say we shouldn't trust our own feelings but that we should rely on our intellect. Some say logic. Some say following the Spirit is not the way to know.

I was reading today and came across these scriptures:

Matt 16: 13-17

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Even Jesus himself, felt that relying on the arm of flesh was less reliable than communication from God.

Alma 32.

[Canuck Mormon]

I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a clear answer. Usually it's silence. So I figure go ahead and see what happens. If it was meant to be then the path will be clear, if not there will be obstacles. That's how I've lived my life so far. I've gone down wrong paths because I forced my way through. Now I look for the direction and keep an eye open for obstacles.

[Traveler]

Let us begin with something simple. Can any one explain a truth that they know that they discovered and the method they used to verify that it was true? Lets keep this as simple as possible. I am asking for any truth the simipler the better. In other words it does not have to be religious. For example - is the earth round? How do you know it be be true?

The Traveler

[Adeipho]

pain hurts me. how do I know, because when Im in pain, it hurts! like that traveler?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Let us begin with something simple. Can any one explain a truth that they know that they discovered and the method they used to verify that it was true? Lets keep this as simple as possible. I am asking for any truth the simipler the better. In other words it does not have to be religious. For example - is the earth round? How do you know it be be true?

The Traveler

I remember long ago when I was at school when we first learned geometry and the teacher said that everything in geometry can be proved. We had to show our proof of how we had arrived at the answer and we were marked for the proving as well as for having the correct answer.

Then he told us that the first thing we had to learn was that a right angle is 90 degrees and that everything else would follow on from that.

So being an awkward sort of a kid I asked him to prove that a right angle was always 90 degrees! He said I would just have to take his word for it.

I did, and he was right - everything else did follow on from that but if a right angle could sometimes be 85 or 95 degrees then it would be impossible to prove any other geometric answer. I loved geometry because it was so precise but have never forgotten that despite everything needing proof I had to take the first 'fact' I learned on faith alone.

[Traveler]

pain hurts me. how do I know, because when Im in pain, it hurts! like that traveler?

Thank you for responding. Please allow a question. How do you know that the hurt is not self manufactured and imagined and not in reality real? I know individuals that have lost entire limbs and they will still experience pain and hurt in the missing limbs. Maybe it is not really pain that hurts but your interpretation of pain that hurts.

What I am trying to do is determine if you really know this or if you jumped to a quick conclusion that in reality is not exactly or completely true.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I remember long ago when I was at school when we first learned geometry and the teacher said that everything in geometry can be proved. We had to show our proof of how we had arrived at the answer and we were marked for the proving as well as for having the correct answer.

Then he told us that the first thing we had to learn was that a right angle is 90 degrees and that everything else would follow on from that.

So being an awkward sort of a kid I asked him to prove that a right angle was always 90 degrees! He said I would just have to take his word for it.

I did, and he was right - everything else did follow on from that but if a right angle could sometimes be 85 or 95 degrees then it would be impossible to prove any other geometric answer. I loved geometry because it was so precise but have never forgotten that despite everything needing proof I had to take the first 'fact' I learned on faith alone.

Willow: This is a good post that demonstrates some thinking. Geometry is a rudimentary language form based in what is called mathematics. It allows us to make various assumptions and then use the language to discover relationships that must exist if the original assumptions are correct.

Your mind is excellent because you quickly recognized that the relationships can only be true if the original assumptions are correct. How then can we know if the original assumptions are correct? Is there a method or must we guess?

When someone talks about truth in say politics or religion we can logically determine if the truth construct are proven by logical (or rhetorical) methods (which most in religion and politics refuse to do). But how can their assumptions be validated. I find it interesting that many in the field of religion refuse to consider their assumptions and are angered if their assumptions are even called into question.

The Traveler

[Adeipho]

Thank you for responding. Please allow a question. How do you know that the hurt is not self manufactured and imagined and not in reality real? I know individuals that have lost entire limbs and they will still experience pain and hurt in the missing limbs. Maybe it is not really pain that hurts but your interpretation of pain that hurts.

What I am trying to do is determine if you really know this or if you jumped to a quick conclusion that in reality is not exactly or completely true.

The Traveler

One could argue this in circles for ever. I base this on two factors:

1. There are degrees of truth

2. Evil is a point of view. No one, not even the devil does something because they want to be "evil". They do it because they think they're right!

[chrissycam2]

That's an interesting idea Adeipho, but why do you think that the devil thinks he is right? He never got the veil so he must know that he is trying to hurt our relationship with God. He must know that it's evil to do that, but he does it anyway. It seems to me that he is making a very deliberate choice to be evil.

(I could be a brat and prove that a right angle is 90 degrees, but I won't.)

[Guest tomk]

Enticement, on the part of God, and temptation, on the part of Satan, are "means to an end" only. In and of themselves, obedience and sin are leading us somewhere that is ultimately good or evil. It is a process of becoming like God or becoming like Satan. Those who desire to become like God, obey Him. Those who want to become like Satan, obey him.

There will come a day when the full weight of a lifetime of choices will come to a reckoning before God. Just as there are degrees of righteousness, so will there be degrees of resurrection and the accompanying glory.

Satan's "evilness" comes because he knows God's will, but chooses to defy it.

Our daily struggle is to recognize the same thing happening inside of us (in whatever area, in whatever degree) and root it out of us in principle, call upon God, and through His grace, He will one day root it out of us in fact, permanently.

Following God's will leads to unity and peace.

Following Satan's will leads to chaos and sorrow.

[Misshalfway]

Traveler,

What is your point? That there are ways of discovering and confirming truth other than the Spirit of the Lord? Or are you saying that these other methods are more reliable than truth revealed from God?

Adeipho,

I gotta disagree with you. I don't think truth is broken into degrees. Perhaps man's understanding of truth comes in degrees.

And Satan.....dude, he knows he is a liar. He knows he is not right! And he don't care! He cares about power...and he will use any means to destroy the work of God. To say he doesn't know what he is doing, is completely underestimating our common enemy.

[Traveler]

Perhaps I should take this a different direction. I once did some consulting for the treasury department. While there I learned that there is a 100% fool proof method of determining when US money is counterfeit. It is also interesting to me that most people (even experts in money – like bankers) do not know this method. Well if they were asked they most likely will talk of other methods and when reminded would say – Oh that is right. But for the most part they forget.

Anyone care to guess what is the 100% fool proof method for exposing a counterfeit?

Just as a side note to Misshalfway: The spirit of G-d is a step required for truth but it is not the only step required.

The Traveler

[Guest tomk]

Can't you tell by the "texture" of the paper -- how it feels?

Bills are made from a special paper that is almost like cloth.

[prisonchaplain]

For the longest time I knew that the Bible ended with Rev. 22, because John said anyone who adds to this book (which I knew meant Bible) would be cursed bad. Of course, what I knew to be true was not sustainable. But, it sure felt right.

The Holy Spirit can certainly confirm truths to our hearts. The Scriptures spell some truths out that we rather don't like, though. They don't feel so good. And yet, they are true.

The best way is to read Scripture diligenty, pray profusely, and by walking with God, and reading his words, we learn to discern when the Spirit is speaking and when our own thoughts and imaginations are in play.

[DigitalShadow]

Lots of conversations lately about how we are to determine truth. Some say search your emotions. Some say science. Some say bible scholars. Some say biblical proof is the only way. Some say archeology. Some say we shouldn't trust our own feelings but that we should rely on our intellect. Some say logic. Some say following the Spirit is not the way to know.

I was reading today and came across these scriptures:

Matt 16: 13-17

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Even Jesus himself, felt that relying on the arm of flesh was less reliable than communication from God.

I don't believe the truth is discoverable by man. We can give our best guess based on what we have seen and experienced in our mortal coil, but in the end, religious or scientific, every belief is just an educated guess by us. I accept and embrace the concept of not knowing the truth with certainty, I find it makes life more interesting and leaves more to discover.

Many say that communication with God is the most reliable source of truth, but how do you communicate with God? Thoughts and feelings? Those can come from anywhere (God, Satan, your own desires). Scriptures? Those are the work of men (divinely inspired or not). How would you know if you were wrong? Given that no religion holds a majority of the world's population, the majority of people have the wrong answer no matter how you look at it. That is hardly what I consider a reliable mechanism for delivering truth.

I know we've been over this before and I know not many (if any) people here agree with me, but I just thought I'd give my opinion on the subject :)

[Guest tomk]

You said:

"Given that no religion holds a majority of the world's population, the majority of people have the wrong answer no matter how you look at it. That is hardly what I consider a reliable mechanism for delivering truth."

No, all that means is that you can never arrive at God's truth by looking at what other men and women are doing. You need to ask God. Then go with the answer you receive.

A full third of the hosts of heaven rebelled against God while standing in His presence. They had, and still have, their agency. It is no different down here. Some will choose to follow the truth courageously. Some will not.

Nobody here can prove to you that any of this is true (nor should we be trying). God will answer you if you ask in faith.

[Guest tomk]

Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

[DigitalShadow]

Nobody here can prove to you that any of this is true (nor should we be trying). God will answer you if you ask in faith.

Not to derail this thread, but I believe this is somewhat related to the topic. "Asking in faith" is where I have issues... I can ask in honesty, in humbleness, in sincerity, but I don't know how to ask in faith. How can you have faith if you haven't gotten a response yet? And if you already have faith, I would think that you don't need to ask.

[DigitalShadow]

You said:

"Given that no religion holds a majority of the world's population, the majority of people have the wrong answer no matter how you look at it. That is hardly what I consider a reliable mechanism for delivering truth."

No, all that means is that you can never arrive at God's truth by looking at what other men and women are doing. You need to ask God. Then go with the answer you receive.

A full third of the hosts of heaven rebelled against God while standing in His presence. They had, and still have, their agency. It is no different down here. Some will choose to follow the truth courageously. Some will not.

My point is that many of those people ARE asking God and going with the answer they receive, but most of them (if not all) are wrong.

Also, are you implying that people of other religions are not following the truth courageously and that somehow their faith is out of some sort of cowardice?

[Guest tomk]

Not to derail this thread, but I believe this is somewhat related to the topic. "Asking in faith" is where I have issues... I can ask in honesty, in humbleness, in sincerity, but I don't know how to ask in faith. How can you have faith if you haven't gotten a response yet? And if you already have faith, I would think that you don't need to ask.

Read Alma 32

You don't have to have a correct understanding of God UP FRONT in order to believe that He exists and to talk with Him. If such a requirement were the case, no investigator into our faith would ever come to know God. I have been a member since age 8, and I am still coming to know God and to trust God in many areas of my life.

Joseph Smith probably had in his mind a Protestant image of God when he prayed. Imagine his surprise when the Father AND the Son appeared to him as two seperate personages!

Once you have faith, you still need to nourish it and keep it alive.

Also what comes into my mind is the story of Ammon and King Lamoni. Notice that this story comes from our own Book of Mormon:

10 Now when king Lamoni heard that Ammon was preparing his horses and his chariots he was more astonished, because of the faithfulness of Ammon, saying: Surely there has not been any servant among all my servants that has been so faithful as this man; for even he doth remember all my commandments to execute them.

11 Now I surely know that this is the Great Spirit, and I would desire him that he come in unto me, but I durst not.

12 And it came to pass that when Ammon had made ready the horses and the chariots for the king and his servants, he went in unto the king, and he saw that the countenance of the king was changed; therefore he was about to return out of his presence.

13 And one of the king’s servants said unto him, Rabbanah, which is, being interpreted, powerful or great king, considering their kings to be powerful; and thus he said unto him: Rabbanah, the king desireth thee to stay.

14 Therefore Ammon turned himself unto the king, and said unto him: What wilt thou that I should do for thee, O king? And the king answered him not for the space of an hour, according to their time, for he knew not what he should say unto him.

15 And it came to pass that Ammon said unto him again: What desirest thou of me? But the king answered him not.

16 And it came to pass that Ammon, being filled with the Spirit of God, therefore he perceived the thoughts of the king. And he said unto him: Is it because thou hast heard that I defended thy servants and thy flocks, and slew seven of their brethren with the sling and with the sword, and smote off the arms of others, in order to defend thy flocks and thy servants; behold, is it this that causeth thy marvelings?

17 I say unto you, what is it, that thy marvelings are so great? Behold, I am a man, and am thy servant; therefore, whatsoever thou desirest which is right, that will I do.

18 Now when the king had heard these words, he marveled again, for he beheld that Ammon could discern his thoughts; but notwithstanding this, king Lamoni did open his mouth, and said unto him: Who art thou? Art thou that Great Spirit, who knows all things?

19 Ammon answered and said unto him: I am not.

20 And the king said: How knowest thou the thoughts of my heart? Thou mayest speak boldly, and tell me concerning these things; and also tell me by what power ye slew and smote off the arms of my brethren that scattered my flocks—

21 And now, if thou wilt tell me concerning these things, whatsoever thou desirest I will give unto thee; and if it were needed, I would guard thee with my armies; but I know that thou art more powerful than all they; nevertheless, whatsoever thou desirest of me I will grant it unto thee.

22 Now Ammon being wise, yet harmless, he said unto Lamoni: Wilt thou hearken unto my words, if I tell thee by what power I do these things? And this is the thing that I desire of thee.

23 And the king answered him, and said: Yea, I will believe all thy words. And thus he was caught with guile.

24 And Ammon began to speak unto him with boldness, and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God?

25 And he answered, and said unto him: I do not know what that meaneth.

26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?

27 And he said, Yea.

28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

29 And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens.

30 And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels.

31 And king Lamoni said: Is it above the earth?

32 And Ammon said: Yea, and he looketh down upon all the children of men; and he knows all the thoughts and intents of the heart; for by his hand were they all created from the beginning.

33 And king Lamoni said: I believe all these things which thou hast spoken. Art thou sent from God?

34 Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true;

35 And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God.

36 Now when Ammon had said these words, he began at the creation of the world, and also the creation of Adam, and told him all the things concerning the fall of man, and rehearsed and laid before him the records and the holy scriptures of the people, which had been spoken by the prophets, even down to the time that their father, Lehi, left Jerusalem.

37 And he also rehearsed unto them (for it was unto the king and to his servants) all the journeyings of their fathers in the wilderness, and all their sufferings with hunger and thirst, and their travail, and so forth.

38 And he also rehearsed unto them concerning the rebellions of Laman and Lemuel, and the sons of Ishmael, yea, all their rebellions did he relate unto them; and he expounded unto them all the records and scriptures from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem down to the present time.

39 But this is not all; for he expounded unto them the plan of redemption, which was prepared from the foundation of the world; and he also made known unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and all the works of the Lord did he make known unto them.

40 And it came to pass that after he had said all these things, and expounded them to the king, that the king believed all his words.

41 And he began to cry unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, have mercy; according to thy abundant mercy which thou hast had upon the people of Nephi, have upon me, and my people.

42 And now, when he had said this, he fell unto the earth, as if he were dead.

43 And it came to pass that his servants took him and carried him in unto his wife, and laid him upon a bed; and he lay as if he were dead for the space of two days and two nights; and his wife, and his sons, and his daughters mourned over him, after the manner of the Lamanites, greatly lamenting his loss.