Why Is This Is Acceptable

[shanstress70]

First of all, I want to point out the source. It's NOT ANTI!

FAIR article

When I asked the missionaries about Joseph Smith marrying other women's wives, he knew nothing about it. In fact, just about every member I've talked to about it says it didn't really happen. Some people don't even know that JS was married to more than one woman.

Then I found this article on FAIR (a Mormon apologetic site for those of you who don't know). The interesting thing about the article is that he admits it happened!

I just wanted to get a reaction from some people about why this is acceptable to you.

Men, would you give your wives to him if you were asked (assuming you lived back then)?

[Snow]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 15 2004, 08:21 AM

When I asked the missionaries about Joseph Smith marrying other women's wives, he knew nothing about it. In fact, just about every member I've talked to about it says it didn't really happen. Some people don't even know that JS was married to more than one woman.

I agree. Ignorance is unacceptable, even if you are Mormon. Everybody in my family knows about it. Even my kids know.

Learning is good.

[shanstress70]

It sounds like you teach your children to think for themselves, which is very admirable, Snow. But if you don't mind sharing, what do you and the members of your family think about it? How do you reconcile it? I actually found out after I no longer believed the church was true, but if I had found out before, this would have definitely done it for me.

[Guest Starsky]

I wonder if we don't have all the facts.

I wonder if JS wasn't asked by these men (not women, lol) to seal their wives to him in order for their salvation to be sure....

I wonder if JS was really happy about the whole thing....I mean, how would you feel being married to other people's spouses...

I can't see that it was a real pleasant thing, nor crafty either....I mean JS was brilliant...he wouldn't have thought to do such a thing on his own.... because if he were looking to get himself murdered...it was a smart way to do it....but if he were looking to please the people...which he loved to do....he would have only done it by their request and for eternal reasons...

Now BY I can see doing it...LOL

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 15 2004, 10:39 AM

I wonder if JS wasn't asked by these men (not women, lol) to seal their wives to him in order for their salvation to be sure....

In a couple cases I read, it wasn't the men at all! At least in one of the accounts, the man was devastated and heartbroken. I'll get you the name if you're interested.

[Guest Starsky]

I have read dozens of these reports....but knowing human nature I only take them with a grain of salt. I know that sounds closed minded....but really ....haven't you known anyone who used their own mistakes to become agressive towards someone else and put their works in a different light than what they were originally intended?

It was around 150 years before any of these things even surfaced....what do we really know about what was going on back then?

I'll give you a for instance that isn't church related....

The history of the nation was written completely different than what some people thought it should be.....there were diaries of some of the early pilgrims who were threaten with death themselves if they didn't fight the british ....

These diaries were written up in a book as the true history of the nation.....I became enraged against america...and all of it's hidden history that was really dirty and I felt like there was no truth or anything to be proud of being an American....

But....that is what has happened in every nation, country, city, state, province, since the beginning of time....even before history was written....people tell the story how they think it will benefit themselves.....and their cause....

NO ONE IS EXEMPT...from this behavior... it could be called an act of the self-defense mechanism...

I have family....half brothers and sisters who have re-written our own family history to make my mother out to be some kind of wicked step mother....but her sisters and brothers who knew her the best before she married my father with 7 children....at the age of 40...say differently.

They watched her become emotionally abused and used to excuse everything they did wrong....poor pitty my father and his 7 poor children....because the horrible step mother reigned with blood and horror....in their midst....

What abeastly lie....After I was married and we had to temporarily move back with my parents...I watch first hand...his manipulating my mother emotionally....and abusing her...and then he came to me and told me this big story to get me to go along with him.....but I already knew the story was false because I was there....when it happened and my father forgot that one little detail....

It is sad....but true....people really are game players....even hiding truth from themselves because they can't face the truth...

[Jenda]

Shantress, you did read this article, right? You understand that it is not a physical marriage that took place, but celestial marriages, or sealings. There was no physical relationship between Joseph and these women.

[shanstress70]

The name I was looking for...

One woman was named Zina. She was married to Henry B. Jacobs. JS said that Zina was meant to be his celestial wife. Long story short, she was sealed to JS. Later she was sealed for time to Brigham Young. Henry Jacobs stood as an official witness. Later, "President Young then called Jacobs on a mission to England. Witnesses to his departure commented that he was so emotionally ill they had to 'put him on a blanket and carry him to the boat to get him on his way'." ("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon).

Once he returned from his mission, Henry continued to write letters to Zina telling her how he loved her and missed her and their children. But he supposedly never had any bad feelings for JS or BY.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 15 2004, 11:27 AM

Shantress, you did read this article, right? You understand that it is not a physical marriage that took place, but celestial marriages, or sealings. There was no physical relationship between Joseph and these women.

Yes, I did read the entire article. I understand that it was implied that there was no physical relationship. There isn't any proof one way or another though, so I won't make up my mind on that. Even if not, it is unacceptable to me. The eternity is more important than time here on earth.

Although I still wouldn't agree, I could kind of see where he was coming from if he married women whose husbands were non-members. But JS didn't only marry women whose husbands were not members - some of them were faithful LDS men.

[srm]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 15 2004, 08:21 AM

First of all, I want to point out the source. It's NOT ANTI!

FAIR article

When I asked the missionaries about Joseph Smith marrying other women's wives, he knew nothing about it. In fact, just about every member I've talked to about it says it didn't really happen. Some people don't even know that JS was married to more than one woman.

Then I found this article on FAIR (a Mormon apologetic site for those of you who don't know). The interesting thing about the article is that he admits it happened!

I just wanted to get a reaction from some people about why this is acceptable to you.

Men, would you give your wives to him if you were asked (assuming you lived back then)?

I'm sorry shans... but I think that most mormons do know. If they do not, it is their own fault.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 15 2004, 11:15 AM

I have read dozens of these reports....but knowing human nature I only take them with a grain of salt. I know that sounds closed minded....but really ....haven't you known anyone who used their own mistakes to become agressive towards someone else and put their works in a different light than what they were originally intended?

It was around 150 years before any of these things even surfaced....what do we really know about what was going on back then?

I'll give you a for instance that isn't church related....

The history of the nation was written completely different than what some people thought it should be.....there were diaries of some of the early pilgrims who were threaten with death themselves if they didn't fight the british ....

These diaries were written up in a book as the true history of the nation.....I became enraged against america...and all of it's hidden history that was really dirty and I felt like there was no truth or anything to be proud of being an American....

But....that is what has happened in every nation, country, city, state, province, since the beginning of time....even before history was written....people tell the story how they think it will benefit themselves.....and their cause....

NO ONE IS EXEMPT...from this behavior... it could be called an act of the self-defense mechanism...

I have family....half brothers and sisters who have re-written our own family history to make my mother out to be some kind of wicked step mother....but her sisters and brothers who knew her the best before she married my father with 7 children....at the age of 40...say differently.

They watched her become emotionally abused and used to excuse everything they did wrong....poor pitty my father and his 7 poor children....because the horrible step mother reigned with blood and horror....in their midst....

What abeastly lie....After I was married and we had to temporarily move back with my parents...I watch first hand...his manipulating my mother emotionally....and abusing her...and then he came to me and told me this big story to get me to go along with him.....but I already knew the story was false because I was there....when it happened and my father forgot that one little detail....

It is sad....but true....people really are game players....even hiding truth from themselves because they can't face the truth...

Starsky, I understand what you mean, and I know there is a lot of unfair 'history' written about the LDS church. I take that stuff with a grain of salt. But this stuff is there in black and white - even in the church's records. True, we don't know for a fact all the circumstances behind it, but we do know that he married all these women.

I know the women in the church (who know about it) are OK with it. I'm not trying to change their minds... they would have already been changed on their own by reading the articles, if they were going to at all. I'm truly just trying to understand how it is all rationalized.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by srm@Jun 15 2004, 11:35 AM

I'm sorry shans... but I think that most mormons do know. If they do not, it is their own fault.

I totally agree that it is their own fault if they don't know. But truly, a lot of people I've talked to don't know. And not dumb people, either!

That wasn't my point though.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jun 15 2004, 09:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jun 15 2004, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jun 15 2004, 11:15 AM

I have read dozens of these reports....but knowing human nature I only take them with a grain of salt. I know that sounds closed minded....but really ....haven't you known anyone who used their own mistakes to become agressive towards someone else and put their works in a different light than what they were originally intended?

It was around 150 years before any of these things even surfaced....what do we really know about what was going on back then?

I'll give you a for instance that isn't church related....

The history of the nation was written completely different than what some people thought it should be.....there were diaries of some of the early pilgrims who were threaten with death themselves if they didn't fight the british ....

These diaries were written up in a book as the true history of the nation.....I became enraged against america...and all of it's hidden history that was really dirty and I felt like there was no truth or anything to be proud of being an American....

But....that is what has happened in every nation, country, city, state, province, since the beginning of time....even before history was written....people tell the story how they think it will benefit themselves.....and their cause....

NO ONE IS EXEMPT...from this behavior... it could be called an act of the self-defense mechanism...

I have family....half brothers and sisters who have re-written our own family history to make my mother out to be some kind of wicked step mother....but her sisters and brothers who knew her the best before she married my father with 7 children....at the age of 40...say differently.

They watched her become emotionally abused and used to excuse everything they did wrong....poor pitty my father and his 7 poor children....because the horrible step mother reigned with blood and horror....in their midst....

What abeastly lie....After I was married and we had to temporarily move back with my parents...I watch first hand...his manipulating my mother emotionally....and abusing her...and then he came to me and told me this big story to get me to go along with him.....but I already knew the story was false because I was there....when it happened and my father forgot that one little detail....

It is sad....but true....people really are game players....even hiding truth from themselves because they can't face the truth...

Starsky, I understand what you mean, and I know there is a lot of unfair 'history' written about the LDS church. I take that stuff with a grain of salt. But this stuff is there in black and white - even in the church's records. True, we don't know for a fact all the circumstances behind it, but we do know that he married all these women.

I know the women in the church (who know about it) are OK with it. I'm not trying to change their minds... they would have already been changed on their own by reading the articles, if they were going to at all. I'm truly just trying to understand how it is all rationalized.

Cool. :)

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 15 2004, 08:39 AM

I wonder if we don't have all the facts.

I wonder if JS wasn't asked by these men (not women, lol) to seal their wives to him in order for their salvation to be sure....

Take my wife ... please!

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jun 15 2004, 12:59 PM

Take my wife ... please!

I was just waiting for that one!

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck+Jun 15 2004, 05:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheProudDuck @ Jun 15 2004, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Jun 15 2004, 08:39 AM

I wonder if we don't have all the facts.

I wonder if JS wasn't asked by these men (not women, lol) to seal their wives to him in order for their salvation to be sure....

Take my wife ... please!

Are you serious?

[broadway]

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

[Snow]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 15 2004, 08:32 AM

It sounds like you teach your children to think for themselves, which is very admirable, Snow. But if you don't mind sharing, what do you and the members of your family think about it? How do you reconcile it?

I reconcile it like this: If religion is to be believed, Old Testament figures were real living human beings who did the stuff the Bible says that they did. I don't know the real story behind the many Biblical polygamists, certainly there is a whole lot more to the story than what we know. If I accept that it was okay for them, in theory it must be okay for someone else.

So what was Joseph's motivation?

Sex? Maybe, but there's not a lot of good evidence to support that?

Because he Abrhamic ideations? That is at least a significant part of any answer.

Because God commanded it? I'll accept that answer just as much as I accept Biblical polygamy.

So what if God didn't command it and Joseph came up with it on his own? I acknowledge that I may never know the answer to that so I don't worry about it too much other than to observe that in my mind, he was undoubtedly called of and favored by God. If he was good enough for God, he's okay with me.

[Snow]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 15 2004, 02:45 PM

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

Broadway,

If I understand you correctly you are unable to say with a certainity if what you hear is true and don't think it is possible to find out for sure?

There are a lot of things we don't know for sure but much is known. If you are interested in what is verifiably known and is written by a real scholar without an anti-Mormon agenda, there is Todd Compton's In Sacred Lonliness. If you don't want to read the book, you can try his website:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/7207/

[Davis]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 15 2004, 05:03 PM

Sex? Maybe, but there's not a lot of good evidence to support that?

But there is some evidence to support that.

[Guest bizabra]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 15 2004, 02:45 PM

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

She was 14, not 12.

[srm]

Originally posted by broadway@Jun 15 2004, 02:45 PM

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

Can you provide the name of this 12 year old?

[Maureen]

Originally posted by srm+Jun 16 2004, 09:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Jun 16 2004, 09:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--broadway@Jun 15 2004, 02:45 PM

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

Can you provide the name of this 12 year old?

srm - You know perfectly well that broadway is probably referring to Helen Mar Kimball who was 14. She just got the age wrong.

M.

[srm]

Originally posted by Maureen+Jun 16 2004, 10:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Maureen @ Jun 16 2004, 10:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Jun 16 2004, 09:27 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--broadway@Jun 15 2004, 02:45 PM

I have heard of these kinds of things before, and have read article after article about it. I have even read about a 12 year old girl who was forced to marry JS for all time and eternity.

I haven't seen much in the way of proof though other than articles. It is hard for me to accept something online as true simply because it looks offical.

To be fair, I do not know what kind of proof I would accept. I mean, Do I really think that JS is going to come down into my home and tell me his life history concerning his marriages?

I am not sure what to make of all that, but I do know that the church is a good church with strong family values and such. The scriptures say all over the place that a good tree bares good fruit. As long as my church continues to strive towards the good, I will remain a loyal member.

Can you provide the name of this 12 year old?

srm - You know perfectly well that broadway is probably referring to Helen Mar Kimball who was 14. She just got the age wrong.

M.

We need to provide correct information. if we allow errors to creep in where will it stop?

[punaboy]

Here in the Kingdom of Hawaii (currently illegally occupied by the armed forces of the USA imperium), I doubt there would be one LDS member in 50 who would know of the diaries (some by faithful "saints") telling of Joseph marrying other men's wives. The truth was kept in secret by the Council of Fifty. When the truth was published in the Expositor, Joseph had the press destroyed, indicating the level of feeling and secrecy associated with these doings..