Protestant vs. LDS Theology - A Few Questions.

[Vanhin]

While Joseph Smith did teach about the Father also having a Father, there is so little information on it, that we are not entirely certain what the exact teaching is on it. Some LDS do not believe that the Father was mortal, while most of us that study this stuff leave it until more revelation is given on it. The issue is, if it is okay for Jesus, as God, to come down to earth and be mortal, why should it be difficult to believe the Father did the same?

This is just for conversation's sake.

I agree with your assesment of the matter. We will have to wait until further light and knowledge is given to us about this before we can know for sure.

About the idea that Heavenly Father also had a father, and so forth: This is one of those doctrines that is partly based on things that early leaders of the Church (including Joseph Smith) may have said, and years of speculation on the part of members of the Church in general. It does seem to be at odds with the current message of the Standard Works, however.

The scriptures, and modern revelation, confirm that God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe (everything that exists), and that His Son, Jesus Christ, is His Only Begotten in the flesh, and the Redeemer of all mankind; and that the Son, is like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and was with him from the beginning. The scriptures also affirm that man was also with God in the beginning (D&C 93:29).

There is no talk in all of scripture of Heavenly Father's father or other Christs, or anything like that. In fact, just the opposite is evident. Even before the creation of this earth, and the earthly ministry and atonement of the Son of God upon this earth, God the Father has been bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind. That means that the work of God, which is only brought to pass because of the infinite and eternal Atonement of Jesus Christ, which was only completed some 2000 years ago on our earth, was happnening infinitely before us. Lest anyone think that these things only pertain to our earth, and our "generation", to Moses, God revealed:

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. (Moses 1:33-35)

I think perhaps the promise in scripture, of eternal increase for those who are exalted, has led some to specualte that one day we will be the father and that we will have a son who would atone for the sins of the "world". This, of course, would mean that the Atonement of Jesus Christ, was neither infinite, eternal, nor was it the last sacrifice for sin. The scriptures of course reject this idea (Alma 34:10,14). About the hereafter for those who are exalted, the Lord revealed the following:

31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself. (D&C 132:31)

It is evident that we will continue, when exalted, and even beget spirit children. In that sense they are fathers; but those works are the continuation of the work of the Father "werein he glorifieth himself". A lot like we do now in mortality. We are aiding the Father and His Christ, in this work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man (Moses 1:39).

Mainly because the scriptures do not allow it, I personally don't subscribe to the notion that Father has a father. Though, I don't understand everything. I don't doubt that the Father had to experience mortality in order to gain his glorified body, because that is how we do it, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that He has ever been the Supreme Ruler of the universe. So, if he then did gain a glorified body, it was by and through the Atonement of his Son, the Redeemer of mankind, since it's plain from scripture, there is no other way.

Anyway, just some thoughts on the matter...

Regards,

Vanhin

[JLFuller]

We are able to read and consider the views and teachings of others without fear of being damaged if we live worthily enough to have the companionship of the Holy Spirit. The reason we should avoid ovbiously hateful or demeaning literature is because of the time we waste on these people, the support our patronge provides them and the angst generated in us when we confront such nonsense. You will not change thier minds. Most will not listen so avoid the heartburn and just move on. If and when they ever get ready they will know where to go. Just remember, they are not interested in bridging the divides between us but in destroying us.

That isn't to say that there are not legitimate writers with another point of view or information that is valuable. It's just that it is easier for us to learn from established sources. We will not waste our time pondering what they have to say. The appologists know far more than most of us. They are worth reading. If you want to engage in a dialog with another person look for someone who is teachable and legitimately interested in a mutually respectful dialog. Also, the Mormon Encyclopedia is an authorzed source.

[Jonathon]

Bert10 said the following:

The testimony of Jesus can only come by the Spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10 - And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Is it safe to say that the burning in the bosom that one receives as a testimony to its truthfulness is the same Spirit of Prophecy that testifies of Jesus spoken about in Revelation?

Mailis said the following:

When I was tought that small children were without sinn it was like a big stone fell off my brist... it had been hard to think that even the newborn would already be sinnful.

I appreciate you sharing this. I recall being a child and being fascinated and even emotionally impacted by Jesus Christ as Savior. However, when I began to understand the more "traditional" Christian understanding of "original sin," I immediately revolted against it. However, as I entered adulthood, I slowly began to read theologians such as Augustine of Hippo, who give significant efforts toward proving the utter depravity of humanity, even in the form of a child. In a far more eloquent manner then I will ever be able to, he would describe the tantrums of a child and expose this as evidence of original sin. I began to align my thinking with his, and thus came to understand the Atonement as being that act wherein the wrath of God was unleashed on His son in our place so that we are no longer "children of wrath" but "children of God."

Ephesians 2:1-10

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I understand the LDS doctrine of continuing revelation. I also am aware that any verses of scripture need to be taken in context of the whole. However, Paul is writing to first century members of the Church in Ephesus, presumably before the Great Apostasy. Was Paul wrong in telling these first century Christians that they were by nature children of wrath before being quickened (made alive) through faith in Christ? If children do not inherit the iniquity of their fathers, then why would Paul use such terms?

If one receives a testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and therefore the Prophet Joseph Smith, I understand that the belief and understanding of LDS official doctrine must then follow. Nevertheless, I am wondering how Joseph Smith, and subsequent Prophets of the Church, interpret these and similar verses in light of the restoration? Please note that I am requesting official church doctrine here, so as to avoid any accusation of trying to bend things through human philosophy sprinkled with a few scriptures, as was mentioned in an earlier post.

Along similar lines, Puf said:

Thus we believe that man is inherently sinLESS. This is why children who have not reached the age of accountability do not need to be baptised and are automatically accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven. However, since there is temptation in the world, and since we have the gift of Agency (free will), every human being will eventually at some time during their life choose to commit a sin of some sort. The Law of Justice demands punishment for such, which would by itself prevent any of us from going to Heaven. However through the Atonement, the Law of Mercy allows Christ's suffering to be the punishment for our sins, satisfying Justice and clearing the way for our return to our Father in Heaven. I don't know of any good expositions on this from general authorities, but the last half of the book of Mosiah and the first dozen or so chapters of Alma in the Book of Mormon are amazing in this regard.

So in light of my question above, perhaps "children of wrath" comes by our free agency wherein everyone, save Jesus, will eventually commit sin and therefore require the law of justice and then mercy as you wrote about? However, I am still perplexed as to why Paul would use the words, "by nature." Thanks for the recommendation on the first dozen chapters of Alma and the last half of the book of Mosiah. I know where to begin my Book of Mormon reading today! :)

Puf also said:

I am aware of none. Joseph Smith's statement was not meant to be used as I used it here, he spoke it in explaining the concept of eternal progression - that is the doctrine that we can continue to better ourselves and have an increase (of glory) in the next life. Whether or not HF had his own mortal probation, and what that may or may not have consisted of, is NOT pertinent to OUR eternal salvation, and therefore will probably never be directly addressed by either scripture or general authority.

Thanks for these comments. They lead me down a bunny trail.

So please indulge me in a sidebar... :)

John Piper, noted Protestant Theologian recently wrote an article about Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria in the early fourth century. Toward the end of the article, he mentions something that Athanasius wrote on "human deification," or glory. I was startled to read a Baptist Pastor expound on this concept, particularly as I recalled how familiar this was to LDS doctrine. Nevertheless, Athanasius was known to be one of the grand contenders against the interpretation of doctrinal heresy at that time.

Here is a sample of what John Piper says:

Athanasius says some startling things about human deification that we would probably never say...

What is the ultimate end of creation—the ultimate goal of God in creation and redemption? ...

How then should we speak of our future being and seeing if they are not the ultimate end? How shall we speak of “sharing God’s nature” and being “conformed to his Son”? The way I would speak of our future being and seeing is this: By the Spirit of God who dwells in us, our final destiny is not self-admiration or self-exaltation, but being able to see the glory of God without disintegrating, and being able to delight in the glory of Christ with the very delight of God the Father for his own Son (John 17:26),48 and being able to do visible Christ-exalting deeds that flow from this delight.

And we will discover that this was possible only because the infinite Son of God took on himself the human nature so that we in our human nature might be united to him and display more and more of his glory. We will find in our eternal experience that his infinite beauty took on human form so that our human form might increasingly display his infinite beauty.

The full article is here - Contending for Our All :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Back to my perplexity with Paul's statement in Ephesians...

And lest you think I am straying too far off course from LDS official teaching, I did find an article by Jeffrey R. Holland on the Atonement that I still need to fully digest. As I re-read and ponder on this article, I may find some of the answers to the questions posed above. Gospel Link

Thanks to rameumpton for the following:

The key to this is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. IF Joseph Smith really did see the Father and Son in the First Vision, and if the Book of Mormon truly is the word of God; then questions such as the Trinity are automatically answered.

I would wholeheartedly agree with you on this! Thanks for bringing it back to the basics in such a respectful way. :)

I look forward to reading continued thoughts on intelligence as posed by vanhin in his question to puf.

Vanhin said the following:

About the idea that Heavenly Father also had a father, and so forth...

The scriptures, and modern revelation, confirm that God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe (everything that exists), and that His Son, Jesus Christ, is His Only Begotten in the flesh, and the Redeemer of all mankind; and that the Son, is like unto God (Abr. 3:24), and was with him from the beginning. The scriptures also affirm that man was also with God in the beginning (D&C 93:29).

There is no talk in all of scripture of Heavenly Father's father or other Christs, or anything like that. In fact, just the opposite is evident. Even before the creation of this earth, and the earthly ministry and atonement of the Son of God upon this earth, God the Father has been bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of mankind.

I wanted to simply say THANKS for such a candid response to this question. It certainly gave me pause. I began to wonder how useful it is to delve too deeply into speculation apart from what is clearly revealed and taught by current Church authorities who, assuming that the Church is true, speak under the inspiration and clarity of the Holy Ghost.

Regards,

Jonathon

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Hey Puf,

So far I have enjoyed reading your posts. I have one point to make concerning intelligences.

You wording (highlighted in bold, and included in context) can easily lead one to believe that there is an entity more basic that our spirit, which represents us as pre-spiritual beings, and that the Doctrine and Covenants supports this idea.

Now, there is a fine line here, and it may simply be a matter of understanding on my part or perhaps clarification on yours. So, feel free to expound on your thought, if the OP will allow it.

According to the Guide to the Scriptures, from the Internet Edition of LDS Scriptures, the word intelligence(s) has multiple meanings, but it lists the three that are related to your point. I quote from the GS:

"Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children." (GS, Intelligence)

So according to that brief summary and the supporting scriptures that follow, three of the meanings for intelligence in our scriptures are:

1. The light of truth, (or the light of Christ)

2. A spirit child of Heavenly Father

3. Spirit matter (which our spirit bodies and all things spiritual is made up of)

If you were simply referring to intelligence as spirit element, then I am in agreement with your understanding. If you meant a being, or entity, that is not spirit element or a spirit son or daughter of God but is called intelligence(s), then I disagree with you. :) This mainly because I do not find support for such a thing in scripture, or the official doctrine of the Church.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

Officially I mean the 3rd, as you say, "spirit matter" although I have never heard that term before - apparently a failing on my part in my own attempts at pseudo-scholarship. However a theory I've concocted would go something along the lines of saying that 1 and 3 are the same. The idea being that "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." and that as the glory of God increases through the obedience of his children (us) more Light and Truth is created (or organized?) into Intelligence(s) as spirit matter. This line of thinking occurred to me while I was reading D&C 93:36 which I quoted here. It's entirely theory, conjecture, and speculation (unless you want to call it personal revelation, which still makes it not applicable in a public venue) and whether true or not, it is most probably not at all pertinent to our eternal salvation. All things considered I probably shouldn't even mention it here - but I've been itching for an excuse to talk about it with other (pseudo)scholarly members of the church and see what others think...

[skalenfehl]

...I understand that according to LDS thought, a testimony of the Book of Mormon, and therefore the veracity of the Church, is given through the Holy Ghost as a burning in the bosom. I have committed to re-read the Book of Mormon, and will apply this in my prayers...

It isn't always a burning in the bosom but that is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Consider some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon by those who have been converted before:

http://www.lds.net/forums/prayers-testimonies/10069-your-book-mormon-story.html

Sometimes the answers comes in a feeling of peace and calm or also as clear truth and knowledge. The Lord will speak to you in way that you will recognize the answer and it will be by one of the fruits of the Spirit.

Best wishes.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

The Lord will speak to you in way that you will recognize the answer and it will be by one of the fruits of the Spirit.

Dude - I love you!

[Vanhin]

Officially I mean the 3rd, as you say, "spirit matter" although I have never heard that term before - apparently a failing on my part in my own attempts at pseudo-scholarship. However a theory I've concocted would go something along the lines of saying that 1 and 3 are the same. The idea being that "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth." and that as the glory of God increases through the obedience of his children (us) more Light and Truth is created (or organized?) into Intelligence(s) as spirit matter. This line of thinking occurred to me while I was reading D&C 93:36 which I quoted here. It's entirely theory, conjecture, and speculation (unless you want to call it personal revelation, which still makes it not applicable in a public venue) and whether true or not, it is most probably not at all pertinent to our eternal salvation. All things considered I probably shouldn't even mention it here - but I've been itching for an excuse to talk about it with other (pseudo)scholarly members of the church and see what others think...

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, I have thought that before as well (1 & 3 = same). I think that would be in harmony with the second half of D&C 93:29, which states:

...Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29)

And we know that physical matter is also eternal:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)

But I really can't say for sure (about the 1&3 idea), since there are implications there that are hard to reconcile, such as the fact that Lucifer remains a spirit personage, and my understanding is that he is void of intelligence and light, and certainly truth.

The actual term "spirit matter" does not exist in scripture, but I'm pretty confident you have heard it put like this before: :)

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

As a side note, there is no part of us that is not eternal, both spiritual and physical. Otherwise we would have an end, or our bodies would, since there would be a beginning...

Anyway, thanks for indulging me in this conversation.

Regards,

Vanhin

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Thanks for the reply. To be honest, I have thought that before as well (1 & 3 = same). I think that would be in harmony with the second half of D&C 93:29, which states:

...Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (D&C 93:29)

And we know that physical matter is also eternal:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D&C 93:33)

But I really can't say for sure (about the 1&3 idea), since there are implications there that are hard to reconcile, such as the fact that Lucifer remains a spirit personage, and my understanding is that he is void of intelligence and light, and certainly truth.

The actual term "spirit matter" does not exist in scripture, but I'm pretty confident you have heard it put like this before: :)

7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter. (D&C 131:7-8)

As a side note, there is no part of us that is not eternal, both spiritual and physical. Otherwise we would have an end, or our bodies would, since there would be a beginning...

Anyway, thanks for indulging me in this conversation.

Regards,

Vanhin

You're absolutely right about D&C 131 and spirit being matter, I've quoted it to others many times. I've just never applied that to intelligences as spirit matter. Abraham also mentions the "Intelligences that were organized before the world was.." so definitely eternal I totally agree. As far as Satan working with my little theory, it is hard to reconcile. That's why it's an imperfect theory and not doctrine :) Anyway, like I said, how intelligences are organized and made into spirits is not something we need to know for our eternal salvation, so I'm not too worried about it. I really appreciate you indulging my little escapade into "I wonder" land

[Vanhin]

You're absolutely right about D&C 131 and spirit being matter, I've quoted it to others many times. I've just never applied that to intelligences as spirit matter. Abraham also mentions the "Intelligences that were organized before the world was.." so definitely eternal I totally agree. As far as Satan working with my little theory, it is hard to reconcile. That's why it's an imperfect theory and not doctrine :) Anyway, like I said, how intelligences are organized and made into spirits is not something we need to know for our eternal salvation, so I'm not too worried about it. I really appreciate you indulging my little escapade into "I wonder" land

It was a pleasure. Thanks Puf.

[rameumptom]

I would add that another possible definition of intelligence is any matter (physical or spirit matter) that is organized to some level. Orson Pratt suggested that the light of Christ fills all of space and all things, giving all things organizational structure. So, an atom may be an intelligence that is organized through the light of Christ from electrons and protons, etc. This atom would have qualities and characteristics that another atom may or may not have (Oxygen versus Helium). For example, I can breathe oxygen atoms, but helium atoms will not sustain life.

Then, atoms can be organized into higher forms of intelligence. One oxygen and 2 hydrogen atoms are combined into water - retaining the original intelligence, but now having new capabilities.

With continued organization, higher forms of intelligence can be created, until we can form spirits that are capable of individual personality and thought process. Abraham 3 describes the spirits that surrounded God as "the intelligences that were organized." Now, we have gone through the next step of organization, by adding a physical body to the spirit. All in the course of creating a higher and more intelligent form that is capable of agency and worship of God.

[Vanhin]

I would add that another possible definition of intelligence is any matter (physical or spirit matter) that is organized to some level. Orson Pratt suggested that the light of Christ fills all of space and all things, giving all things organizational structure. So, an atom may be an intelligence that is organized through the light of Christ from electrons and protons, etc. This atom would have qualities and characteristics that another atom may or may not have (Oxygen versus Helium). For example, I can breathe oxygen atoms, but helium atoms will not sustain life.

Then, atoms can be organized into higher forms of intelligence. One oxygen and 2 hydrogen atoms are combined into water - retaining the original intelligence, but now having new capabilities.

With continued organization, higher forms of intelligence can be created, until we can form spirits that are capable of individual personality and thought process. Abraham 3 describes the spirits that surrounded God as "the intelligences that were organized." Now, we have gone through the next step of organization, by adding a physical body to the spirit. All in the course of creating a higher and more intelligent form that is capable of agency and worship of God.

There are things in nature that lend credibility to some of that tought. Like the pregnant mother who eats fruits, vegetables, and meats (all of which are from less intelligent life forms than the woman), yet those elements are in turn used to form the baby in the womb. And the vegetables that lift the elements from the soil to a higher plane of intelligence. But the matter itself was not created ex nihilo and has always existed in one form or another.

Vanhin

[skalenfehl]

Dude - I love you!

Thanks. Right back at ya, brother.

[Jonathon]

I just wanted to let you all know that I have begun a serious re-read of the Book of Mormon, and I am finding myself unexpectedly drawn back to it in a way that I was not expecting. I did not grow up in the Church, but received my first copy of the BoM when I was 9 years old. I was fascinated by religion at that age, and struck up a friendship on my swim team with an LDS kid. I do not remember his name, but will never forget his face or the Spirit with which he gave me that book. I had not thought about this first experience with the book for MANY years.

What an interesting spiritual journey... and life... this has been.

Hope everyone is doing well, and that you have a great weekend.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I just wanted to let you all know that I have begun a serious re-read of the Book of Mormon, and I am finding myself unexpectedly drawn back to it in a way that I was not expecting. I did not grow up in the Church, but received my first copy of the BoM when I was 9 years old. I was fascinated by religion at that age, and struck up a friendship on my swim team with an LDS kid. I do not remember his name, but will never forget his face or the Spirit with which he gave me that book. I had not thought about this first experience with the book for MANY years.

What an interesting spiritual journey... and life... this has been.

Hope everyone is doing well, and that you have a great weekend.

That is just FANTASTIC! Enjoy your weekend too, and I wish you safe travels on this journey of yours!

[rameumptom]

I just wanted to let you all know that I have begun a serious re-read of the Book of Mormon, and I am finding myself unexpectedly drawn back to it in a way that I was not expecting. I did not grow up in the Church, but received my first copy of the BoM when I was 9 years old. I was fascinated by religion at that age, and struck up a friendship on my swim team with an LDS kid. I do not remember his name, but will never forget his face or the Spirit with which he gave me that book. I had not thought about this first experience with the book for MANY years.

What an interesting spiritual journey... and life... this has been.

Hope everyone is doing well, and that you have a great weekend.

Jonathon, good luck on your readings. After 32 years of membership and over 70 times reading the Book of Mormon, I still find incredible things in the book. For example, when I first joined and was told the BoM had the fulness of the gospel, but when I read it it didn't seem to have anything on the temple in it, I wondered why not. Since then, I have found many passages and teachings that directly tie into the temple rites. It has helped me to understand both the Book of Mormon, the endowment, and my personal walk in life much better.

It really is an incredible book, and I wish that more people would study it and not just read through it once like a novel.

[Guest tomk]

The following three books, by an otherwise obscure member of the Church ( I doubt you've heard of him) are quite good, and lend some tremendous insights into the Book of Mormon and receiving the Second Comforter (on both sides of the veil):

Amazon.com: The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil: Denver Snuffer: Books

Amazon.com: Nephi's Isaiah: Denver Snuffer: Books

Amazon.com: Eighteen Verses: Denver Snuffer: Books

These are great books for faithful members who sense there is more to be had.

[rameumptom]

But I really can't say for sure (about the 1&3 idea), since there are implications there that are hard to reconcile, such as the fact that Lucifer remains a spirit personage, and my understanding is that he is void of intelligence and light, and certainly truth.

Vanhin

The way it works, as I understand it, is that the Father fills us with his celestial grace, the Son with terrestrial grace, the Holy Ghost with telestial grace, and the light of Christ fills all of space and goes through all things (D&C 88, 93). So, Lucifer and the sons of perdition will continue throughout eternity receiving the light of Christ - just enough life to exist/live, but not progress.

[Hemidakota]

The following three books, by an otherwise obscure member of the Church ( I doubt you've heard of him) are quite good, and lend some tremendous insights into the Book of Mormon and receiving the Second Comforter (on both sides of the veil):

Amazon.com: The Second Comforter:: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil: Denver Snuffer: Books

Amazon.com: Nephi's Isaiah: Denver Snuffer: Books

Amazon.com: Eighteen Verses: Denver Snuffer: Books

These are great books for faithful members who sense there is more to be had.

Snuffer has some remarkable insight in his first book that surprised me. He did leave out some important information [latter years prior to death] that is known for those who had such invitation of the CFB.

[Hemidakota]

The way it works, as I understand it, is that the Father fills us with his celestial grace, the Son with terrestrial grace, the Holy Ghost with telestial grace, and the light of Christ fills all of space and goes through all things (D&C 88, 93). So, Lucifer and the sons of perdition will continue throughout eternity receiving the light of Christ - just enough life to exist/live, but not progress.

There is end for those whom are of perditions [spirit/mortal body]. Though, it is between GOD and those who choose that path. Intelligence however, remains eternal.

[Jonathon]

Before this thread dies completely, as it seems to be headed that way, I wanted to thank you all for your posts! I have found many of the insights/comments very helpful.

On a side note, I will be attending an LDS Church tomorrow (stake conference) for the first time in YEARS. I am looking forward to it.

Take care.

[Hemidakota]

God bless you and your initiative in making those decisions. May GOD grant you the spirit of wisdom that there will come a day you will be a force to be reckon with on this earth.

[lostnfound]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

Traveler - I appreciate the recommendation of your thread. I'll check it out.

tomk - I read the article you sent me by Jeffrey R. Holland. It was a breath of fresh air to read such clear, unambiguous, statements on the nature of the LDS doctrine of the Godhead.

He wrote something that aroused my curiousity:

I testify that He had power over death because He was divine but that He willingly subjected Himself to death for our sake because for a period of time He was also mortal. I declare that in His willing submission to death He took upon Himself the sins of the world, paying an infinite price for every sorrow and sickness, every heartache and unhappiness from Adam to the end of the world. In doing so He conquered both the grave physically and hell spiritually and set the human family free.

Is there an article by a General Authority that you recommend with greater exposition on the Atonement? As I have been studying the Catholic/Protestant view of the Atonement, I came to believe the following:

Man is inherently sinful. Though the Old Testament speaks of righteousness vs. wickedness, I came to believe that it is only God who makes a person righteous. No effort of their own can satisfy a pure, holy, God because every human effort is tainted with sin. Because of this, Jesus Christ was sent to the world to be the propitiation (substitution) for the due penalty of our sin. That due penalty being death and eternal separation from God. As such, Jesus Christ became the only pure and completely righteous being to ever live, and we are thus justified by our faith in His righteousness alone. Because any efforts of our own self-righteousness are tainted by sin, we are, therefore, unable to ever become righteous enough, thus the need for the Savior's sacrifice on the cross. We make efforts toward living holy lives, but we realize that our merits of righteousness will never be accepted by God because they were already accepted by God at His Atonement.

Thank you for allowing me to voice how I have come to understand the necessity of the Atonement over the last few years. I wrote that so that you, more scholarly LDS, can find statements that are perhaps completely contradictory or aligned with LDS doctrine. Anyone who is willing, please feel free to respond with your thoughts on what my views of the Atonement have been. (Or point me in the direction of a good article written by a GA!)

Puf_the_majic_dragon - Thank you so much for your lengthy, clear, and thoughtful response. Thank you for correcting me on my misunderstanding of baptism for the dead and its correlation to sharing the message of the Restored gospel to those in Spirit Prison. I appreciate your affirmation of the doctrine set forth by Joseph Smith of the Father's own mortal probation. This, then, leads to my earlier question:

Does Heavenly Father have a Heavenly Father? Are there Church documents that talk in more detail about Heavenly Father's mortal probation?

Thank you for breaking down the Nicene Creed and contrasting it with LDS views.

I am sure you have heard many Protestant/Evangelical and even Catholics question you on John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I have believed that Jesus Christ is the Word, and thus has been with the Father in eternity since time immemorial. However, LDS doctrine clearly teaches that He was born literally of the Father. Can you expound on this?

Oh, and majic_dragon, maybe they got "quick and the dead" from Moroni 10:34. :)

a-train - Thanks for the clarification on Trinitarianism, Modalism, and Mormonism's understanding of the Unity of the Godhead. I have believed each one of these "isms" at some point in my past, however, when I was a member of the Church in my high school years, I certainly hadn't studied these out. I wonder if I am coming "full circle..."

Hope you all are having a swell night.

Jon

jon, just a thought. i don't know your circumstances or what prostestant churches you got into but have you ever read "Evidence demands a verdict? by josh mcdowell..or the "The case for christ by lee strobal? " I would read these books before reentering into the LDS world or any other reglion for that matter and that goes for prostestant churches as well.

My prayer for you would be that you find the "The true Christ" and not a perverted one by mankind.

[Snow]

My prayer for you would be that you find the "The true Christ" and not a perverted one by mankind.

Interesting admonition.

I'm guessing that you believe in the God of the Nicene Creed. Correct?

[Misshalfway]

My prayer for you would be that you find the "The true Christ" and not a perverted one by mankind.

I am speechless........

[Hemidakota]

So I am...and I do know my elder brother. He apparently needs to rethink what he said.