john 3:16 question for mormons

[lostnfound]

The LDS faith is neither works based nor saved by faith alone. It is as the Bible says, we are saved by grace after all that we can do, and faith without works is dead. To us the two go hand in hand. We do not obey in order to earn salvation. We obey out of gratitude for the gift.

What about when Jesus said that if we don't do these things for the least of our brethren we are not doing them for him and he will say he never knew us?

The bible does not say we are saved by grace after all we can do. That is not a scripture. That is LDS teaching.

But I agree with you works and faith do go hand in hand..I will clarify this later tonight..what exactly I mean.

[Misshalfway]

lostnfound: if I could be so bold... You started out posting here saying that you were trying to learn more about what Mormons believe, because you live and/or work in an area now where there are lots of LDS people around, and you wanted to better understand them.

However, from your posts today, I'm getting more of the impression that, rather than trying to understand us, you're trying to "save" us and point out to us the "error" of our ways. Am I correct in this assumption?

Are you really here to understand, or to prostelyte?

I don't really suppose that it matters. I would rather have someone who is not of our faith go into a ministry understanding accurately than someone who spreads misunderstanding and falsehood. The truth is a much better tool that hopefully will bring religious groups to mutual respect. We have had far too much religious persecution and hostile divisions thru-out our world. I would much rather have someone understand honestly and then disagree, than someone who bullheadedly believes lies and propagates them.

[lostnfound]

I don't really suppose that it matters. I would rather have someone who is not of our faith go into a ministry understanding accurately than someone who spreads misunderstanding and falsehood. The truth is a much better tool that hopefully will bring religious groups to mutual respect. We have had far too much religious persecution and hostile divisions thru-out our world. I would much rather have someone understand honestly and then disagree, than someone who bullheadedly believes lies and propagates them.

That is exactly it! People are way more three diminensial then what I can read in a book. Unfortunately..not every mormon i have talked to agree with their own doctrine. Which is true in christian churches as well. So getting to the core of the churches teachings is sometimes hard to do. Some say oh no we do not teach that..etc..and you can read it right on the church website for example. :)

[lilered]

First, Let me say I am sorry if I sounded condesending. please forgive me. The computer is a lousy form of communication. You type something and others will think it is scarcastic or rude and you did not communicate it that way at all. :):)

I agree with you that works play a huge role in our relationship with God. But nowhere in the bible does it say baptisim is part of salvation. Remember the thief on the cross? He was saved because he acknoledged he was a sinner and he needed Christ to forgive him of his sins. He put his faith in Christ that day alone! Now does a true believer get baptised yes..and follow God Yes?.

lostnfound - Why do you believe that Jesus was baptized?

Luke 23:

39 ¶ And one of the malefactors which were hanged arailed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due areward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

What does Paradise mean to you?

[lostnfound]

lostnfound - Why do you believe that Jesus was baptized?

Question: "Why was Jesus baptized? Why was Jesus' baptism important?"

Answer: When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John asked the same question. Why should he, a sinful man, baptize the Messiah? He tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized saying “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). The baptisms that John performed symbolized repentance, and he saw this as inappropriate for the One he knew to be the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. His was a perfect righteousness in that He fulfilled all the requirements of the Law which we, for whose sin He would exchange His righteousness, are not capable of fulfilling. He is our perfect substitute.

This baptism was a very public one and was recorded for all generations to know about and understand, and it is important for several reasons. First, it pictures His death and resurrection. Second, it symbolizes the believer’s identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Third, it marks His first public identification with those whose sins He would bear. Fourth, the event was a public affirmation of His Messiahship by the testimony that came directly from heaven (Matthew 3:17).

Water baptism is used as a way to identify. In Jesus’ day, when a Gentile would convert to Judaism, he would have to be publicly baptized to identify him as a convert. Obviously, Jesus was not converting to anything. Jesus’ baptism was an identification of Jesus with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was baptized to publicly announce Himself as God’s Son, and to pronounce the beginning of His ministry with the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus did not “need” the Holy Spirit. However, to set an example for us, Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:7) and relied upon the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus' baptism and reliance upon the Holy Spirit is an example that we are to follow in our own lives.

Recommended Resource: Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ by John Piper.

[Misshalfway]

You are gonna find that LDS people will disagree with you on your descriptions of why Jesus was baptized. We believe that all sinners need baptism. It is an outward ordinance that is symbolic of the cleansing and conversion of the heart and spirit and that everyone must be baptized. It was so important for the Lord to fulfill all righteousness. Therefore how much more important is it for us who are sinners to follow his example. One must be born of the water and of the spirit.

[lostnfound]

You are gonna find that LDS people will disagree with you on your descriptions of why Jesus was baptized. We believe that all sinners need baptism. It is an outward ordinance that is symbolic of the cleansing and conversion of the heart and spirit and that everyone must be baptized. It was so important for the Lord to fulfill all righteousness. Therefore how much more important is it for us who are sinners to follow his example. One must be born of the water and of the spirit.

I realize that..Jesus was not a sinner though. So his baptism was different in that he was fullfilling the law. I am going to answer i believe it was your post earlier though in more detail tonight. Just typing between cooking dinner. :)

[lilered]

Question: "Why was Jesus baptized? Why was Jesus' baptism important?"

Answer: When Jesus came to John to be baptized, John asked the same question. Why should he, a sinful man, baptize the Messiah? He tried to prevent Jesus from being baptized saying “I need to be baptized by You and You are coming to me?” (Matthew 3:14). The baptisms that John performed symbolized repentance, and he saw this as inappropriate for the One he knew to be the spotless Lamb of God. Jesus replied that it should be done because “it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). Christ was here identifying Himself with sinners. He will ultimately bear their sins; His perfect righteousness will be imputed to them (2 Corinthians 5:21). Therefore, this act of baptism was a necessary part of the righteousness He secured for sinners. His was a perfect righteousness in that He fulfilled all the requirements of the Law which we, for whose sin He would exchange His righteousness, are not capable of fulfilling. He is our perfect substitute.

This baptism was a very public one and was recorded for all generations to know about and understand, and it is important for several reasons. First, it pictures His death and resurrection. Second, it symbolizes the believer’s identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. Third, it marks His first public identification with those whose sins He would bear. Fourth, the event was a public affirmation of His Messiahship by the testimony that came directly from heaven (Matthew 3:17).

Water baptism is used as a way to identify. In Jesus’ day, when a Gentile would convert to Judaism, he would have to be publicly baptized to identify him as a convert. Obviously, Jesus was not converting to anything. Jesus’ baptism was an identification of Jesus with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Jesus was baptized to publicly announce Himself as God’s Son, and to pronounce the beginning of His ministry with the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus did not “need” the Holy Spirit. However, to set an example for us, Jesus emptied Himself (Philippians 2:7) and relied upon the Holy Spirit’s power. Jesus' baptism and reliance upon the Holy Spirit is an example that we are to follow in our own lives.

Recommended Resource: Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ by John Piper.

Lostnfound - And yet after stating the above, you still maintain that Baptism is not part of the salvation process! I find that difficut to understand.

[lostnfound]

You are gonna find that LDS people will disagree with you on your descriptions of why Jesus was baptized. We believe that all sinners need baptism. It is an outward ordinance that is symbolic of the cleansing and conversion of the heart and spirit and that everyone must be baptized. It was so important for the Lord to fulfill all righteousness. Therefore how much more important is it for us who are sinners to follow his example. One must be born of the water and of the spirit.

oops one more thing..The question given to me was not why do I get baptized..if that was the question I would have said it was symbolic of Christ's death, burial and ressurection..but not part of salvation. We are commanded to follow through with baptism. Remember the jailer in Acts 16..Paul told him to be saved believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved" Then..after the were they followed through with baptism like Paul did in every single case where he testifed to someone how to be saved or how to get to heaven.

[kona0197]

Where did lost say that baptism is not part of the salvation process? Baptism is absolutely needed and part of the plan!

The scriptures tell us that.

Every religion I have looked into that revolves around Christianity says you must be baptized.

[lostnfound]

Lostnfound - And yet after stating the above, you still maintain that Baptism is not part of the salvation process! I find that difficut to understand.

once again it does not justify you..it is part of santification..not justification as stated in earlier posts. Its not that you throw it out completely as if it is not important but to know its proper place in the scriptures. Every example in the nt where paul went to witness to someone he told them they must believe in the lord jesus and they did and were saved..then they were baptized. Find me one scripture verse wher Paul told someone in order to be saved you must be baptized.

[kona0197]

Someone correct me should I be wrong...

Jesus taught that to be saved you must be baptized. Jesus was an authority on the issue. What Paul did matters not.

[lostnfound]

Where did lost say that baptism is not part of the salvation process? Baptism is absolutely needed and part of the plan!

The scriptures tell us that.

Every religion I have looked into that revolves around Christianity says you must be baptized.

kona to be clear..I never said it was not important just not what saves you! Faith is what saves you. And no not every christian church teaches that. Catholics teach that. But they teach a infant baptism...and you are right if you are truely saved you should be baptized. I was. Remember the thief on the cross was not baptized.

[lostnfound]

Someone correct me should I be wrong...

Jesus taught that to be saved you must be baptized. Jesus was an authority on the issue. What Paul did matters not.

Jesus was the authority who he gave instruction to his apostle. The scriptures are all god inspired and given to us to teach, rebuke etrc...what paul did does matter..it matters alot..as does what others taught us in the Nt and Ot. :)

[erichazelle]

Ok . . . I probably ought to take the same path as Canuck Mormon, but since others view this forum as well and maybe think, "these are good questions", let's at least answer for them, and for lostnfound as well, if he's willing. First: as to God having other children. There are many references to God being the Father of our Spirits, but Hebrews 12: 9 is as good as any. We are all spirit offspring of God; Christ was, too, but to accomplish His mortal ministry, He had to have a special combination of immortal / mortal body in addition, which he inherited from the union of God with Mary. Only one of that kind was ever needed; hence, He had the only combination of such. As to Christ being "the only begotten in the flesh"; yes, the bible doesn't say that specifically, but if we believe in literal inerrancy in the Bible, then we're going to have a lot of explaining to do. Do you believe in a literal 6/24 hour day creation? Christ, with the exception of a few nut cases, is the only one ever claiming to have divine / mortal parentage.

As to L.D.S. teachings about Mary ruling in Heaven with God; I know of no such position. She, like all the rest of humankind, will not be fully enthroned in Heaven until the last judgment.

The Book of Mormon was written by a man? All scriptures are. That's why they call them the book of John, the book of Matthew, etc. The point is, whether the man writing them is inspired by the Holy Ghost; that's what makes or breaks scripture. (2 Pet 1: 21, "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." These speakings became writings, which became scripture. There is no scripture anywhere that I know of that claims to have been written directly by the Hand of God, so men writing scripture under God's dictation is the best we're going to get. (And, not too shabby, that!)

As to God's children becoming like Him: this is basic Genesis 1: 26. We are made in the image and likeness of God, or, in other words, we have a body like He has, arms, legs, head etc., and we are like Him in terms of personality, potential and future . . . if we so choose. It is not our blasphemy or arrogance that says we will become like Him; it is His creation and magnanimous offer right from the get-go, and a continuing invitation throughout the scriptures for us to throw off the evil nature we get sucked into here in mortality, and come up and be one with Him and Jesus. (See Matt 10: 24-25 and John 17: 11.)

As to multiple gods and goddesses: I like this metaphor. God has a family business; let's call that business, "Salvation Inc." Sorry for the crass and plebeian references, here, but we're mortals trying to understand immortality; finite beings trying to get a handle on infinity. That business is creating universes, and populating them with His children, who He encourages to grow and develop as best they can. (Matt. 5: 48; Christ commands us to become perfect like our Father in Heaven, for example.) If we achieve the highest levels, we don't replace God: we open up our own branch offices of the family business and contribute to the whole. (I've written a book on this, by the way; if anyone is interested, I'd be glad to e-mail you one for free. I hope I'm not violating any site taboos by mentioning this.)

Ok: does that help? Bottom line: read and pray about the Book of Mormon. Once you know the truth of that, all these other things fall into place sooner or later.

[lostnfound]

the bible specifically teaches that man has seen God "face to face"

Exodus 33:11 Moses saw God and spoke to him.

john 1:18 states "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him".

we have seen Jesus who is God..but we have not seen the father. Moses saw only a fraction of his glory. But it was to see all of God he would have died.

[Misshalfway]

I realize that..Jesus was not a sinner though. So his baptism was different in that he was fullfilling the law. I am going to answer i believe it was your post earlier though in more detail tonight. Just typing between cooking dinner. :)

Yes. He was sinless. That was the whole point, wasn't it. A sinless sacrifice for the whole of man. He didn't get baptised because he needed cleansing. He did it as an example for all of us.

Now, let me tell you what confuses me. You perform baptism and say that it is important for one to become sanctified but that it is not important for salvation. Is there some line of scripture that leads you to believe this because every scripture I read about baptism leads me to believe that it is essential if not completely fundamental to salvation. I am not sure what logic calls for baptism to be essential because it is a commandment, but not essential to salvation. God doesn't seem like a being of confusion to me, and this explanation feels very confusing. If Christ did it I should too. He wants me to do it because it will make me clean and teach me to follow him. I must be clean to enter the kingdom of God. Entering the kingdom of God is salvation. Please help me understand why baptism wouldn't help one become fit for the kingdom?

I also noticed that you said it is our faith that saves us. Isn't that a work.....a choice that man makes to open his heart or desire the Lord or see his own sinfulness and desire cleansing and forgiveness? If we can do nothing for ourselves, then how is it that faith saves? My understanding of your other posts was that Jesus saves. I believe that faith is essential to salvation AND is a work. Not essential to earn it.....just essential to qualify for it -- as is the rest of all obedience.

[Misshalfway]

john 1:18 states "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him".

we have seen Jesus who is God..but we have not seen the father. Moses saw only a fraction of his glory. But it was to see all of God he would have died.

I thought I would add these scriptures just for fun. :)

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

We believe that God does show himself to man ( and that some of these experiences are recorded in scripture), but that God's glory is so powerful that in order to do so safely, man must be changed. We call that process transfiguration. We believe that all of God's witnesses, must have something to witness in order to be the strongest kind of witness for the Lord. This is God's pattern. He will reveal himself and command these prophets to testify and give commands and leadership to the people. We believe that pattern existed in the new testament as can be seen as the Lord came to visit with the twelve to show them the prints in his hands and feet and on the road as well. And then commanding them to testify of what they had seen. This same pattern occurs today. It did with Joseph Smith. He saw God face to face and spoke with him as plainly as a friend would speak to a friend. He also saw the resurrected Lord on the right side of the Father. Joseph was called my his name and Jesus was introduced to him.

EDIT: One more NT scripture.... why stephen was stoned.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus estanding on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

[Misshalfway]

BTW, do you mind sharing exactly what denomination you are from? I think it would help. Some of your perspectives are different than other Christians I have met. Some say that Baptism is a choice. Some say it isn't really that important and some that it is essential. Today is the first day I have ever heard that it is necessary but not essential for baptism. I would like to understand better. :)

[drjme]

The only placed this word is used in the nt is 2CO 12:4 and Rev 2:7 The word suggests garden like the word used in Eden but in all three NT uses it speaks of heaven.

Another thing. Would that mean that Jesus did not go to heaven that day according to lds? Because you said its a holding place to continue to work out salvation so to speak. Because Christ said to the thief.. Today you will be with me in Paradise. It is important to do the cross reference of how the word is used throughout the bible to have a better idea of what Christ was talking about here.

LDS.org:

GS Paradise

Paradise is also used in the scriptures to mean the world of spirits (Luke 23: 43), the celestial kingdom (2 Cor. 12: 4), and the glorified millennial condition of the earth (A of F 1: 10).BD Paradise

A Persian word meaning a garden. It is not found in the O.T. In the N.T. it occurs in Luke 23: 43, 2 Cor. 12: 4, and Rev. 2: 7. See also 2 Ne. 9: 13; Alma 40: 12, 14; 4 Ne. 1: 14; Moro. 10: 34; D&C 77: 2, 5; cf. A of F 10. Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23: 43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5: 424-25). Possibly 2 Cor. 12: 4 should also not use paradise in the sense of meaning the spirit world, as much as meaning the celestial kingdom.GS Heaven

The term heaven has two basic meanings in the scriptures.1 It is the place where God lives and the future home of the Saints (Gen. 28: 12; Ps. 11: 4; Matt. 6: 9).2 It is the expanse around the earth (Gen. 1: 1, 17; Ex. 24: 10). Heaven is clearly not paradise, which is the temporary place for the faithful spirits of those who have lived and died on this earth. Jesus visited paradise after his death on the cross, but on the third day, he informed Mary that he had not yet been to the Father (Luke 23: 39-44; John 20: 17; D&C 138: 11-37).BD Heaven

This term has several meanings in the scriptures. It is first of all the place where God lives and the future home of the saints (Gen. 28: 12; Ps. 11: 4; Matt. 6: 9). It also means the expanse around the earth, as the heavens (Gen. 1: 1, 17; Ex. 24: 10). It is usually thought of as being “up,” or above the earth (cf. Alma 18: 30-32). In the sense of being God’s home and the ultimate place for the faithful, it is clearly distinguished from paradise, which is the temporary abode of the faithful spirits of persons who have lived and died on this earth. Jesus visited paradise after his death on the cross, but on the third day thereafter, he informed Mary that he had not yet been to the Father (see Luke 23: 39-44; John 20: 17).

For us to interpret 'paradise' in this instance as 'heaven' or the celestial kingdom would contradict a lot of what Jesus himself said was required to dwell with the father. Interpret it in this instance as the spirit world does not contradict other scriptures, but it contradicts your interpretation.

It is apparent that the thief did not go to heaven, because Christ did not go there immediately (He said TODAY you will be with me in paradise, but He did not ascend to His Father for at least 3 days). For him to do so would not fit in with biblical teaching. It is at the resurrection that we recieve our 'heavenly reward'. What is the point of the resurrection/judgement if the thief already receives his place with God by merely asking the saviour on his death? That would mean everyone can dwell with God in heaven by simply confessing Christ as their Saviour, then there is no point to the judgment or resurrection but this is not the case.

Jesus did not got to heaven that day because 'Jesus visited paradise after his death on the cross, but on the third day thereafter, he informed Mary that he had not yet been to the Father.' so where did they go? I would be interested in your interpretation.

Call it 'purgatory','spirit world','paradise','hades', so what if Catholics call it what they do?

peter 3:

"18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

peter 4

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 aFor for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

These verses can give us an Idea of what Jesus Done while in between his crucifixion and resurrection.

I realize that..Jesus was not a sinner though. So his baptism was different in that he was fullfilling the law.

Of course Jesus was not a sinner, but all he was doing was setting the example of what we need to do to 'fulfill all righteousness'. plain and simple, he is the ultimate example. For us, Our baptism is a physical expression of committing our life to the Saviour. Of our old selves dying and being bought back to life in Christ. First principle of the gospel is expressing Faith in Christ, second is expressing repentance of our wrongs or our old life, third is baptism, the first two acts are inward acts and to show we mean it we partake in baptism (can be considered 'works') . In this sense I suppose we must be 'doers' of the word not just 'knowers' or 'sayers'. and so In baptism we are physically doing what we say we know. There is a huge difference between what people say and know they should do, and what people actually do (in relation to committing to things and following through). For example I can talk about wanting to be good all the time, but it means nothing if i'm not actually trying to do it.

Christ was So Humble that he submitted himself to the requirements that WE must abide by to fulfill all righteousness. IMHO it was His flesh that required it, not He Himself because He is perfect (his flesh was natural, like yours and mine). He was fulfilling that necessity as he said "..except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God'. He submits Himself to all He says, to show the way, He lives by the laws He sets, For him not to would contradict his laws and void them. that is what it comes down to.

[lostnfound]

BTW, do you mind sharing exactly what denomination you are from? I think it would help. Some of your perspectives are different than other Christians I have met. Some say that Baptism is a choice. Some say it isn't really that important and some that it is essential. Today is the first day I have ever heard that it is necessary but not essential for baptism. I would like to understand better. :)

This will shock you. I currently attend a southern baptist church. However, I would never say I am baptist or some other..because I am first a follower of jesus christ. I have been in great baptist churches and bad baptist churches. I have been in great evangical churches or non denominational churches and lousy non-denominatial churches.

i am more of a calvinist then a armenian if that helps any of you..but not hyper calvinist.

I would adher to teachers like John mcarthur or john piper or kay arthur or beth moore or josh mcdowell or James White or billy graham on some good writings,, Charles stanely.. to name a few of teachers that I believe are closer to the truth then others.

I think there is this strange movement going on in prostestant churches. I call them water down churches..and their are alot of them out there. That would like to not discuss baptisim because they do not want to offend the masses..namely like catholics for example who may be attending the first time. so then they just don't mention it..

Campus Cursade for christ leaves it out, Intervarsity leaves it out...Why do they leave it out? Because God made it a point to make it important. Paul immediately baptized every convert..Every convert was fully imerged in the water. Jesus commanded them to go unto the nations baptizing them, Jesus made it it a point to be baptized..The gospels talk about all throughout..I believe its important. very important. But it does not justify you unto salvation.

It is a interesting take to say that Faith is a work..Faith is a heart change that happens with someone. It is turning away of sin and saying in one's heart Lord, I need you..I can't do anything to earn my way to heaven

(As romans and James so clearly tells us what God thinks of our works) it was paid in full on the cross.

[breeb]

I'm late to this thread, but its funny that I was just talking about this Saturday night with my inactive husband and his brother, who is very involved in the church. My husband is inactive, slowly getting back in the church. They both explained it better (for me to understand) than anyone else has. It IS by Grace alone that we are saved, BUT the only way to get to Grace is by works. This may sound confusing but Grace does not get you to Grace. You actually have to work to get to Grace. Thats why comandments are COMANDMENTS. Anyone can say they follow Christ. For crying out loud!! There are people out there KILLING others in the name of Christ!! Look at the crusades (outdated example, I know). These are people accepting Christ as their savior. If I understand correctly under your definition these people would be saved even though they are breaking a major commandment. ADOLF HITLER. Very religious christian if I've been told correctly. Didn't know the guy myself:D, but look at the absolute horrors this guy created.

My point is, if you are truely living by Christ then your works naturally follow. You cannot just claim Christ. Prove to Him that He truely is your Lord. I hope this helps.

[Traveler]

Luke 3:38 reads..the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Jesus was in Heaven and not created..Adam was created in the image of God..Formed by God in the garden. a great story in Genesis.

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being " john 1:1-3-4

The word became flesh."

begotten means in greek "one and only.. or born one.

beget which some confuse..means bring into being..

Instead of using webster to do a word study you guys need a hebrew/greek dictionary.

Okay you are confusing me. You stated that Jesus was the only son of G-d. I gave you a scripture that contradicts your interpretation and asked for your reconciliation. Also I missed the scripture that says that Jesus was not created. Let me get this straight you believe that man was created – so then Jesus was never a man or the son of man?

In fact I do not think you have even ever read the scriptures. I do not find any scripture that says Adam was created as you stated above. All the scriptures refer to the creation of man not Adam.

now your beginning quote:

John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever should believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life"

Begotten greek word means "one and only" He is one and only son is what the bible says.

How do you reconcile this to mormon teaching that teaches that God had multiple children?

Also why then would Mary not be in Heaven with God ruling with him? Since the bible states she is the mother of Jesus. This confused me in regards to what LDS teaches

It is interesting to read your responses. The scriptures also state that Mary was the mother of our L-rd. I am sure you do not understand the ancient question from the Nestorian Christians. Which is: If Jesus was both G-d and man why do the scriptures say Mary was the mother of our L-rd. Be careful with this one, you just might adopt a answer that the early Trinitarian Christians established as hearsay.

You also stated that according to the Bible Jesus was the one and only son of G-d - so I gave you a scripture that calls Adam the son of G-d. Do you understand the question as it applies to your question?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

If we are saved by grace alone there is no reason to argue or make a point concerning salvation. If such is true then not only is it impossible for man to contribute to salvation he cannot detract or diminish it either. Since we have nothing to contribute and nothing we do matters why make a point of it?

If it is really by grace only why do scriptures encourage us to wander into pointless worship, beliefs or behavior?

The Traveler

[lostnfound]

Okay you are confusing me. You stated that Jesus was the only son of G-d. I gave you a scripture that contradicts your interpretation and asked for your reconciliation. Also I missed the scripture that says that Jesus was not created. Let me get this straight you believe that man was created – so then Jesus was never a man or the son of man?

In fact I do not think you have even ever read the scriptures. I do not find any scripture that says Adam was created as you stated above. All the scriptures refer to the creation of man not Adam.

now your beginning quote:

It is interesting to read your responses. The scriptures also state that Mary was the mother of our L-rd. I am sure you do not understand the ancient question from the Nestorian Christians. Which is: If Jesus was both G-d and man why do the scriptures say Mary was the mother of our L-rd. Be careful with this one, you just might adopt a answer that the early Trinitarian Christians established as hearsay.

You also stated that according to the Bible Jesus was the one and only son of G-d - so I gave you a scripture that calls Adam the son of G-d. Do you understand the question as it applies to your question?

The Traveler

Travelor are you serious? Sorry, I am going to get a little tough on you. You can't find a scriptre that says adam was created? Have you read Genesis chapter 1 and 2?????!!!!!!!

Lets look at chapt 2 in genesis verses starting at 7 "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being.\

What is so special about the creation of man is that God got up close and personal in the creation of man but with the animals he just spoke them into existence..but with man he breathed into his nostirls and formed him...read chapter 2 verses 18-25..where it says "but for adam there was not a helper suitable for him and he caused a sleep to fall over him and then formed Eve.." Again another beautiful story of how God created adam and eve.

As to your other remarks about jesus.. "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became flesh and dwelt amoung us..." Jesus was not created. He was in the beginning with God and came to earth as a man and the holy spirit visited mary and said she was with child and she would name him Jesus. She did not have sexual relations to produce Jesus. Somehow God allowed Jesus to become a baby in Mary's womb to dwell amoung us to accomplish His plan.