Why would I choose not to accept the gospel?

[Elphaba]

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on.

Good!

As I’ve said before, I am an intelligent person who is able to discern truth that is in front of my eyes. For example, if I have died and am in spirit prison, a REAL place, and the REAL missionaries are teaching me the gospel, I am intelligent enough to know that the doctrines I had learned in my twenty-five years as a member of the Church were true.

Thus, I would admit I had been wrong about my atheism, which is another trait of mine. I admit when I’m wrong.

It is true I am a critical thinker, so that may cause a few interesting conversations with the Spirit Prison missionaries, just like it does on Earth, although I would not be disrespectful.

I also like to have a good time with people who love to laugh, and I’ve spoken with many missionaries on Earth who do as well. So, I assume, since everyone takes their personality with them, at least some of the “missionaries” from Paradise won’t mind a hoot or two.

If you don't believe it now, what's going to change that?

The environment, the people, the spirit prison, the missionaries, the opportunity to meet Christ. That sound like a good beginning to me.

If you've already been taught the gospel, I don't see why you'd be taught it in the afterlife.

You might not see why, but apparently God does. Everyone who enters spirit prison will have “missionaries” from Paradise teach them about the gospel. This includes people like me who were taught the gospel, but who never had a confirmation it was true, and therefore rejected it.

You had it once and you turned away from it. No, I did not. But I am not going to explain that here.

. . . and though you still have the chance to accept it in this life, I don't know if that same opportunity will present itself in the next.

Yes, it will. Go to lds.org and type in “spirit prison.”

Also, I'm not sure about what you said concerning Christ being present in spirit prison.

Yes, I am wrong about that. Christ does not come to the spirit prison.

However, once I have been released from the spirit prison, I will be allowed to live in Paradise until I have been assigned to a Kingdom. Christ visits both the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms, so I will have the opportunity to meet Him at some point. If I discovered the Church was true, that would be something I would look forward to with great anticipation.

Faith is always necessary until it's been tested and becomes knowledge. Faith precedes knowledge.

Explain to me what “faith” means to someone in Paradise. For, if it is all true, I will have the chance to leave the SP, and live in Paradise until the resurrection. What part of that would require the kind of “faith,” a person on Earth is supposed to have?

Elphaba

[Moksha]

However, once I have been released from the spirit prison...

Elphaba

Pssst, check the carrot cake for a file before you bite down on it.

[Elphaba]

I'm not aware of any doctrine that we will be taught by exalted beings in the spirit world. It is my understanding that the spirits of the non-believers will be preached to by the spirits of the believers.

You are correct Willow, and I am wrong.

The teachers will be "missionaries" from Paradise, NOT exalted beings as I have been saying over and over. I apologise for my mistake.

So apart from the fact that they will know that spirits continue to live after bodies have died they will have no evidence that any other LDS doctrine is true.

Here is the difference for me. I was raised in the Church. I already know most of the doctrines.

So if I am in a REAL place with REAL missionaries teaching me the gospel, that is a very good sign to me that the Church's doctrine is true, and is a reason why I would not give any other religion or beliefs any thought. I would know, by my surroundings, that I was in the right place.

There are plenty of other religions which teach the continuation of the spirit after death - even people who don't believe in God but believe in all kinds of other stuff like re-incarnation. They will probably have their spokespersons too trying to convince the spirits that their very existence is proof of their doctrine.

I have searched and cannot find any doctrine, Conference talks, or Church magazine articles that speak of reprsentatives from other religions being in heaven.

Additionally, there would be no place for them, as there is the Spirit Prison and Paradise.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Pssst, check the carrot cake for a file before you bite down on it.

My knight in white light, too bright to look at, armor.

Elphie

[Elphaba]

I wanted to make a major correction to what I have been saying in my past posts.

1. The teachers in the spirit prison will be "missionaries" from Paradise. Paradise is where all of the righteous and worthy people who have died will reside until the resurrection. They will NOT be "exalted beings" as I have stated in every post I have written about it.

2. Christ will not visit the spirit prison (though I'm sure He could if He wanted). He will visit the Telestial Kingdon, however, so there is hope for me yet.

I apologize for not having researched these before writing them in so many posts.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

XD man you seem angry! Yes my queen.

Bow a little lower please.

You are saying you would require to see God, Christ, a spirit world to believe. that is asking for a sign, that is asking for evidence. but then you are firm in your belief there is No God so what sign would be any good.

Waking up in a REAL place that is consistent with LDS doctrine.

Regarding seeing Christ, I have said he will come to the spirit prison and I will be able to see Him. I am wrong about this. He does not visit the Spirit Prison.

However, once I had “completed” the lessons and accepted the gospel, I would be allowed to live in Paradise, where He has visited a few times that I could find.

So, no, I would not require Christ to visit the SP to believe in Him. There would be plenty of other evidence that would be persuasive to me. I’ve tried to make this clear just recently, but it will probably be missed, as I have mussed this one up.

The major reason I would accept the gospel from the missionaries is that I already know enough of it that if I were in a REAL SP with REAL missionaries, teaching the gospel, I would recognize it. I think I’ve given the impression I would just believe for no reason, and this is not true.

So, it makes a difference that while they were teaching me doctrines I already know about, it would be a confirmation for me that what I had learned in Church for 25 years was true, and that I was wrong.

Of course I am, I'm LDS, you are asking for an LDS perspective on an LDS forum about LDS beliefs. what did you expect?

Yes, you are right. I apologize for that comment.

And the Answer to your question? is because people have the agency to choose to believe. The devils know Jesus is the Christ, yet they choose to deny Him and choose to follow the adversary, and so submitting to their outcome. Why?

You’d have to ask a devil, because I have no idea.

It would seem Gods gift is agency, Satan's goal is lead them captive at his will, to surrender our agency impairing our ability to choose the right. Since we are spiritual beings as well as physical (beware I am about to make an assumption) the spirit may well be impaired on the otherside, suffering the effects of 'captivity', as it's intelligence is continuous with or without the body.

]Good. Maybe I am one of these beings, and therefore, will get out of class (spirit prison), for a day or two, as I’ll need to recuperate from the exorcism.

Seriously, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. Satan has a hold of me because I left the Church? And that when I die, my spirit will be impaired? So what? I presume a priesthood holder would discern this impairment, and give me a blessing so that I would be healed, and continue with my lessons in the spirit prison. Why would he not?

Ah yes, how presumptuous of me. All I was saying is that if people really want to know they will find out one way or another if they keep their heart and mind open to possibilities. and you have declared there is no God....repeatedly…

In my opening post I made it very clear I did not want people discussing what I should do, or what I have done, to gain a testimony.

Unfortunately I have not been consistent about this, and it is MY fault I am drawing the line on your post. I apologize for that, as it is not your fault. I promise to be more consistent in the future.

Isn't this all just speculation to you?

Perhaps. So what? There is nothing wrong with that.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

But the fact still remains as stated by hearmasleep"

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on. The same is true with knowledge. The time to learn is now, as progression after death will take much longer.

And this is a problem why?

What about all of the 99.9 percent of the population who have never heard the gospel. Is the fact that it is going to take longer for them to learn the gospel a problem?

Additionally, I already know many of the Church's doctrines, so I suspect I would actually learn the principles the missionaries from Paradise teach me faster than most of the other students in the spirit prison.

One of the basic teachings of the Church is that the knowledge we gain in this life will be a blessing to us now and in life after death: “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19). Again, what about all of the other 99.9 percent of people who have and do exist? Are they going to be denied an "advantage" because it is going to take them longer to learn and accept the gospel?

I think that is the last thing I'd worry about.

Stirring witness of salvation for the dead was given to a subsequent latter-day prophet in 1918. President Joseph F. Smith recorded a vision he received on October 3 as he read and pondered 1 Peter 3:18–20 [1 Pet. 3:18–20] and 1 Peter 4:6 [1 Pet. 3:18–20], wherein the Apostle Peter discusses the Lord Jesus Christ’s visit to the spirit world after his crucifixion:

<snip>

“I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

“The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God” (D&C 138:11–12, 18–19, 29–30, 32–34, 57–58).

I was all prepared to post President Smith's vision, but you beat me to it.

I'm not sure why you think President Smith's quote disagrees with my comments; rather, it supports them.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I am sorry you took so much offense to that. I wasn't trying to be rude, however, that's how you took it, and that is important. I tried to explain in the very next sentence (that you failed to quote) that I was chalking all my confusion up to being a forum newbie. Not that I was trying to "question your motives," as you actually ended up doing to me. That's ok, if you felt attacked, I can understand why. Regardless, it wasn't anything against you. I was merely demonstrating how confused I was.

[qoute]But I guess it's easy to take things out of context, isn't it?

I suppose so. But when you continue to couch your comments in yet more condescension, it's not hard at all.

Meh.

Elphaba

[Teancum18]

I suppose so. But when you continue to couch your comments in yet more condescension, it's not hard at all.

Meh.

Elphaba

Yeah I have been known for being very direct. Places I grew up in, friends I had, bosses I admired; they were all very direct. So I learned one great strength while a weakness of mine never got any attention. The strength being an honest, straightforward style of communicating. The weakness being a complete lack of diplomacy.

[HiJolly]

Elphaba, I guess I really did come at you with a lot of extraneous info that, while I felt it would be helpful to you, nevertheless was not. Sorry.

I think the premise you have is incorrect, concerning what you can expect to experience should you live beyond death. So there's not much I can say. I wish you the best in your search for truth.

HiJolly

[lilered]

Elphaba - To respond to your questions to me.

And this is a problem why? - I didn't say it was a problem. Just that it will take longer.

What about all of the 99.9 percent of the population who have never heard the gospel. Is the fact that it is going to take longer for them to learn the gospel a problem? - Again, if time does't matter, keeping in mind that progression is based on it.

Additionally, I already know many of the Church's doctrines, so I suspect I would actually learn the principles the missionaries from Paradise teach me faster than most of the other students in the spirit prison. - Knowing them and obeying them is a little different.

One of the basic teachings of the Church is that the knowledge we gain in this life will be a blessing to us now and in life after death: “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19). Again, what about all of the other 99.9 percent of people who have and do exist? Are they going to be denied an "advantage" because it is going to take them longer to learn and accept the gospel? Yes as a matter of fact they are, its called progression.

I think that is the last thing I'd worry about. - Suits me, it it tickles you. Its your soul.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

There are two keys to conversion, meaning accepting the Savior as the way to Salvation.

The first is a change of heart. The second is faith. We come to this life to progress by "walking by faith rather than by sight." 1 Corinthians(not sure where it is though). That is how we grow spiritually. That is when the Savior's Atonement begins to work in our behalf. There is no second chance if we have the opportunity in this life and we neglect to use it or choose not to. Here are the words of Elder McConkie regarding the subject in his devotional "The Seven Deadly Heresies"

"There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

His wife was a member of the Church, as faithful as she could be under the circumstances. One day she said to him, "You know the Church is true; why won't you be baptized?" He replied, "Of course I know the Church is true, but I have no intention of changing my habits in order to join it. I prefer to live the way I do. But that doesn't worry me in the slightest. I know that as soon as I die, you will have someone go to the temple and do the work for me and everything will come out all right in the end anyway."

He died and she had the work done in the temple. We do not sit in judgment and deny vicarious ordinances to people. But what will it profit him?

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

For those who do not have an opportunity to believe and obey the holy word in this life, the first chance to gain salvation will come in the spirit world. If those who hear the word for the first time in the realms ahead are the kind of people who would have accepted the gospel here, had the opportunity been afforded them, they will accept it there. Salvation for the dead is for those whose first chance to gain salvation is in the spirit world.

In the revelation recently added to our canon of holy writ, these words are found:

Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. [D&C 137:7*9]

There is no other promise of salvation than the one recited in that revelation. Those who reject the gospel in this life and then receive it in the spirit world go not to the celestial, but to the terrestrial kingdom."

He also had another address, the 1948 conference report, where he talks on this subject. Again he doesn't mince words. I can't get to a typed or electronic version of some sort on here.

I apologize if this is blunt, I mean no ill will, but that is just Elder McConkie's style. However, it also makes him very easy to trust to tell you like it is. I hope this helps.

[drjme]

Good. Maybe I am one of these beings, and therefore, will get out of class (spirit prison), for a day or two, as I’ll need to recuperate from the exorcism.

XD

Seriously, I have absolutely no idea what you are saying. Satan has a hold of me because I left the Church? And that when I die, my spirit will be impaired? So what? I presume a priesthood holder would discern this impairment, and give me a blessing so that I would be healed, and continue with my lessons in the spirit prison. Why would he not?

I don't know if a priesthood blessing can cure atheism.

I apologize sometimes I write things that are not directed at you (they are just general comments), but afterwards I realize it seems that way. this was just a general comment about how willful sinning affects our ability to choose (eg bad addictions) as opposed to our ability to discern when we embrace God. I wasn't referring to you needing an exorcism or that you are possessed.

[Moksha]

The same spirit that occupies your body at this time is the same one that you'll have after you pass on. The same is true with knowledge. The time to learn is now, as progression after death will take much longer.

One of the basic teachings of the Church is that the knowledge we gain in this life will be a blessing to us now and in life after death: “If a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come” (D&C 130:19).

I was told in the Gospel Essentials class that knowledge existed beyond the veil. Is this not so? Was what I was told mere speculation? Is what you are saying mere speculation? Will we have to take a wait and see attitude?

Beyond that, if what we learn in this life is crucial, will it be an impediment for all those members who eschew scientific knowledge in the here and now?

[Hemidakota]

Our personality needs to be molded now and not later. It is far easier to mold it here than there, for reason that the mortal flesh has a greater power than the spirit by itself. I cannot remember who spoke about this in the past, whether it was Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. A good example of a question asked: "If I am easy to anger here, in mortality, could I change it in the next life. Yes but at a slower rate than the mortal flesh." The advantage is to do it here and move swiftly in the next.

Knowledge gained here will have a greater impact for us in the next state of life. Joseph received this revelation and added it to the Doctrine and Covenants. I found this to be true in my own life as it is written in the PB. What is the advantage? Spend less spiritual time with new doctrines or principles. Anything beyond the basic church doctrine is most often taught by the Godhead or ministering spirits.

Now, if we learned something and was not corrected in this life, we will be corrected in the next.

[lilered]

I was told in the Gospel Essentials class that knowledge existed beyond the veil. Is this not so? Was what I was told mere speculation? Is what you are saying mere speculation? Will we have to take a wait and see attitude?

Beyond that, if what we learn in this life is crucial, will it be an impediment for all those members who eschew scientific knowledge in the here and now?

Knowledge does indeed exist beyond the veil, however the time to gain knowledge is here in this life. The personality you have at the time of your death, will be the same one you are restored with. Now is the time while here on earth to develop and gain knowledge, so that beyond the veil, one will have had the chance to progress at a much higher rate.

No, what I stated is scripture not speculation (D&C 130:29. If you take a wait and see attitude, it will be too late. You will have dwindled away your opportunity to gain knowledge and develop while here on earth.

[HiJolly]

I was told in the Gospel Essentials class that knowledge existed beyond the veil. Is this not so? Was what I was told mere speculation? Is what you are saying mere speculation? Will we have to take a wait and see attitude?

Hmm... I'm not sure I understand the real question here, Moksha, but yes, I know that knowledge will exist beyond the veil. To me, the question here is what kind of knowledge will be most useful beyond the veil.

For example, we can know e=mc^2 in this life, and in the life to come. And I think it is useful to know in both places, here for scientific reasons, and there because it is obviously something God uses in His creation, as a law or limitation that in part defines how the universe functions. At least, the part of the universe that we can observe here in mortality.

To continue the example, compare e=mc^2 with a working knowledge of how faith and hope interact. I personally believe that the latter will be far more useful in the next life, than e=mc^2. Even though it is not an empirical, scientific knowledge, but rather is a subjective, personal one.

Here in this life, it is fairly easy to discredit or scoff at a subjective gnosis or 'knowledge'. Particularly so for one who is experienced in the scientific method, with its rigors of peer-reviewed validation, mountains of carefully collected data points, and strictly controlled experimental conditions.

Either way, whatever we learn as truth will be useful to us, but to differing degrees depending on which side of the veil we are on.

Beyond that, if what we learn in this life is crucial, will it be an impediment for all those members who eschew scientific knowledge in the here and now?

I think it will be if they reject it because it conflicts with their dogmatic or purely socialized beliefs. But if they don't receive it innocently, because they never had a chance to fairly accept or reject it, then it probably won't be a significant problem, if they can shed the dogmatism (ie, did not make it a way of life that they carry with them).

Let's say, for example, you have Joseph Fielding Smith as a father-in-law, and you are immersed in a world-view that says either the atonement is true, or evolution is true, and there is no middle ground. They are absolutely mutually exclusive. That's what I'm talking about.

Nice switch on the usual, eh?

[rameumptom]

First, for those who don't know me well, I am an atheist, and while it is complicated, one of the reasons is I see no evidence of a god of any kind. This is despite my doing everything I could to gain a testimony.

(If anyone reading this is wont to tell me what I haven’t done, please don’t. I want to keep my conversation directed at my question.)

Additionally, despite people who think they know otherwise, I cannot choose to believe in a god I do not believe in. The lack of any gods is so obvious to me, I cannot force myself to believe otherwise.

I was raised in the Church, and was active until I was 25, at which point I had my name removed. I have a fairly good grasp of LDS doctrine, except for the teachings learned in the temple.

So here is what I do not understand:

Even though I am an atheist, if I were to die and end up in a supernatural “prison,” which if I remember correctly is not as dire as it sounds, and the gospel was being taught to me by exalted beings, why would I then choose not to accept it? After all, I would now have hard evidence there was a God and the LDS doctrines were true.

Additionally, if I remember correctly, I will have the opportunity to see Christ in person. And I guarantee you, if Christ were standing before me in heaven, then I would know He is the Christ, that the gospel is true, and would choose to accept it.

Why would I not? Why would anyone not?

Who would ever choose not to accept the LDS gospel in these circumstances?

Elphaba

Some very good questions. Let's see if I can get a decent angle on this for you. LDS believe in a near universal salvation. All are resurrected and all will return to the presence of God (Alma 11, Mormon 9), if for nothing else, the final judgment. This is all free, due to the atonement of Christ. Only sons of perdition will not gain a kingdom of glory or light.

Having said that, each of us will have to go to a temporary hell/spirit prison to pay for any and all of our unrepented sins (D&C 19). We are taught that the pain of that hell will be as bad as the sufferings Christ experienced. In a Near Death Experience, Alma the Younger noted that his pains in spirit prison were "exquisite", and he wasn't released until he fully repented and cast away every bit of sin he had stubbornly held onto (and it took him 3 days in this hell to get to the point of letting go and repenting). We've been told that some people may experience millennia in this kind of pain. One of my sons, when he was a teenager, once triumphantly told me that he could live a telestial life and still get a kingdom of glory. I agreed with him, but noted the intense suffering he would go through in the spirit prison prior to receiving that glory. The triumphant look left his face and he left to think it through some more (he later went on a mission).

Finally, at the Final Judgment, we will be judged according to the type of being we have become. Those who are ready and willing to live a celestial law will gain a celestial glory; those who are ready only for a lesser law and glory will receive that, as well (D&C 88). God's "work and glory" is to bring to pass our immortality and exaltation (Moses 1:39). Christ has done all he can to provide this gift. Now it is up to each of us to decide how much of the gift we will receive.

I agree that spiritual things can be difficult to grasp, understand, and embrace. If they were simple, everyone would be LDS. The fact that you keep an open mind, even as an atheist, speaks well for you. It may be that the witness/testimony you seek will one day be yours, and if you are still open at that day, it may be yours to accept with gladness.

[sgallan]

See, now here is the thing with this statement.....

"There are those who believe that the doctrine of salvation for the dead offers men a second chance for salvation.

I knew a man, now deceased, not a member of the Church, who was a degenerate old reprobate who found pleasure, as he supposed, in living after the manner of the world. A cigarette dangled from his lips, alcohol stenched his breath, and profane and bawdy stories defiled his lips. His moral status left much to be desired.

So as his example he uses a person - who is not of the faith - and puts them in a terrible light. Sort of like; if you are not with us this is how you will turn out. Excuse me, I will gladly do a compare and contrast exercise in the manner I am living my life with the average devout member of any faith.

He basically set up a strawman.

[sgallan]

There is no such thing as a second chance to gain salvation. This life is the time and the day of our probation. After this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

This is why I would want nothing to do with this particular version of God. Any diety that would punish eternally, for an unbelievably short period of time when compared to 'forever', given all the contradictorial evidences, and religions, in the World; not to mention those born in cultures where finding this version of Gods true religion is all but impossible, is a God I am not interested in even meeting much less spending an eternity with.

[crytsprospect]

Wait a minute we can do work in the spirit world ... we can change if we choose we can grow the only thing we cannot do is perform ordinances.

I believe people who are Christians will get exactly what they expect but sadly they will also learn it could be so much more.

[Elphaba]

I was searching for more information about the Spirit Prison, and found this article at the mormon.org site. It discusses the Plan of Salvation and Life after Death. This one sentence struck me, as it is contrary to what I thought was true, and what many here have said on this thread as well.

Plan of Salvation

Life after Death

Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil. (emphasis mine)

It was my understanding that you took your personality to the spirit world. This is the first time I recall someone saying otherwise.

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/life-after-death

[Moksha]

So what happens to the eternal progression idea if it is established that your personality is unchanging and the bulk of your learning needs to take place on the mortal coil?

[Teancum18]

I was searching for more information about the Spirit Prison, and found this article at the mormon.org site. It discusses the Plan of Salvation and Life after Death. This one sentence struck me, as it is contrary to what I thought was true, and what many here have said on this thread as well.

It was my understanding that you took your personality to the spirit world. This is the first time I recall someone saying otherwise.

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/life-after-death

Your original understanding was, and still is correct. That sentence is implying that you will not be different after death. Which is the same as what you originally believed that we take our personality with us to the spirit world. Another fancy way of saying it is that the spirit which we take on in this life is the same spirit we'll take on in the next life.

So that sentence is saying exactly what you originally understood.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was searching for more information about the Spirit Prison, and found this article at the mormon.org site. It discusses the Plan of Salvation and Life after Death. This one sentence struck me, as it is contrary to what I thought was true, and what many here have said on this thread as well.

Quote:

Plan of Salvation

Life after Death

Death will not change your personality or your desire for good or evil. (emphasis mine)

It was my understanding that you took your personality to the spirit world. This is the first time I recall someone saying otherwise.

http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/heavenly-father-s-plan-of-salvation/life-after-death

Could you please explain why this sounds different to you. I'm a little confused.