Nephites lived here in the US?!?! Possibly!

[Hemidakota]

Unfortunately for your thesis, Mormon wrote his abridgement 300+ years after the destruction at the time of Christ's death. He mentions that Zarahemla was rebuilt and then describes his moving the Nephites to the land of Cumorah after he had made a treaty with the Lamanites ceding everything south of the narrow neck to the Lamanites. No matter what happened at the death of Christ, 300 years later there was still a Zarahemla in its original location and a narrow neck with the land of Cumorah to the north of it.

Moroni never had any more records than those few records given to him by his father prior to the final battle. The rest were buried in the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah. The location of the New York Hill Cumorah does not fit the description of its location found in the text of the Book of Mormon.

If we accept Joseph Smith as a Prophet then we must accept the Book of Mormon as a translation of an ancient record and that its content accurately describes the lands and relationships between geographic features. Any other proposal, in my opinion, denies the validity of Joseph Smith as a prophet.

Larry P

Totally agree..in hast and in flight from the enemies of the remaining Nephites, he would only carrry what was easy and light to handle.

[Hemidakota]

I will assumed the last prophet that will be called forth before or during the return of the Savior would be the one that will be given the plates to complete the final translation of the Brother of Jared. I would also believe, he would be shown the exact location of the other civic, religion, or other affairs plates of that people also. Meaning, he will need the Urim and Thurmmin to be a Seer. My suspicion, it will be Moroni that will be the ministering spirit unto him.

[LehiVermont]

Brethren,

On the issue of the setting of the BOM, it must be bourne in mind that, for those Saints looking to the possibility of a 2012 eschaton, the Central American theory is crucial; as the Maya became the custodians of that prophecy...

-L

ETTE & KS

[Hemidakota]

If my memory serves me right, noting the calendar is more or less of the people of Jared, which in turn was something that resembles the Enoch calendar, it is has nothing to do with the Mayan people but what was inherited after taking over the cities.

[Teancum18]

In Alma it refers to cities being created with large heaps of earth around the city and then timbers around the top and mote on the inside. In Ohio are the ruins of the Mound builders Indians. They put giant mounds of earth around their cities. They now have golf courses running thru the mounds. They also used the mounds to connect the different cities. One mound builder site actually had a mote on the inside of the mounds.

This guy uses those mounds and other evidences to support his theory that the Nephites lived here in the U.S.

He believes that the Land of Zarahemla was up around Michigan/Illinois/Ohio areas. The Great Lakes being "hte sea Northward, the sea Eastward, and the sea Westward.

He thinks the land of Nephi was around the Louisiana because the very little panhandle on the southeast corner of the state is a very good candidate for the narrow neck of land.

Interesting points! I like them!

[Teancum18]

And the last battle took place near this location, did it not.

Even if it didn't, Moroni was on the run for like 30 years from the Lamanites. It would make sense that he moved very far east, to upstate New York, to hide from them.

[Teancum18]

I'm getting a headache from this.

Actually, as much as I hate to say it, but this guy who proposes the theory of the Nephites living between MI and LO thinks the narrow neck of land was the panhandle on the southeast corner of LO. How could that be if the Lamanites got everything south of the narrow neck of land in their treaty?? Everything south of that panhandle is the Golf of Mexico waters.

Unless I misunderstood what that guy was saying about the narrow neck of land in his theory.

[tiancum]

Even if it didn't, Moroni was on the run for like 30 years from the Lamanites. It would make sense that he moved very far east, to upstate New York, to hide from them.

the only thing that doesn't make sense about him transplanting the plates is that Joseph and Brigham actually went into a huge cave with lots of plates, inside Cumorah. It was not a vision as they actually entered.

That, and everything that Joseph said about Nephite civ taking place in north and south america. It's in doctrines of salvation...if ya have gospelink check it out.

here are some quotes

Joseph Fielding Smith

LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case. Cumorah, HillBook of Mormon, Geography of, (speaking of the Cumorah in New York) is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Ramah. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." 18 Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Furthermore, There are many accounts of the City of Manti being located in Missouri.

There are more there. feel free to read.

I do not care much about the Locations, but for the sole fact that the Prophets and Apostles have never EVER said anything to suggest that the Nephites did not possess the Land northward. They have, in fact taught the opposite A LOT. Many of them claim to have received revelation about it. They clearly state that The book of Mormon lands included New York and the USA. Something Joseph Fielding said disturbed me too. "Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon".

I did not even imagine that this theory was hurting people, but apparently it is, according to Joseph Fielding. That is the only reason I post on this thread.

I do not debate the fact that the nephites and Lamanites were in South and central America, but i simply assert that according the what prophets and apostles have said, including Joseph Smith, It happened in North America too. And....the hill cumorah was Ramah, and when the prophet saw the many waters in the vicinity, he stated they were Ripliancum.

[Hemidakota]

It was a vision they received from Moroni and not the actual cave. Go back to the early reference that Skalenfehl mentioned.

[tiancum]

Cumorah's Cave - Maxwell Institute JBMS

I went to it. All I saw were the accounts of it being an actual cave...some might have seen it in vision, but many claimed to have set foot in it, including Brigham young. They even said that joseph deposited the plates there.

[Hemidakota]

The question is not the location of the cave, but what plates lies within and the content.

[tiancum]

That will be sweet

[poulsenll]

The question is not the location of the cave, but what plates lies within and the content.

My questions are

Why is it important to some that the Book of Mormon culture was located in the United States? What difference does it make if the important thing is the message it contains?

What is more valid, the opinions of men, including General Authorities, or the text of the Book of Mormon, an ancient document translated into 1830 common English by the gift and power of God? The official statement from the Church is that there has been no revelation concerning the location of the Book of Mormon events. It is the text of the Book of Mormon and only the text, provided by the gift and power of God, that has any validity.

If the cave was in the New York Cumorah, why has it not been found?

If the reason is because the Lord has moved it, then would it have been just as easy for Him to transport Joseph Smith to where ever the cave was located whether it was hidden in New York or in Mexico?

If Moroni wandered for 35 years before he buried the plates, why did he return to the Hill Cumorah to bury them and if he did return, why did he not metion this rather than say that he was in danger for his life and was therefore fleeing from Lamanite controlled lands?

Larry P

[Hemidakota]

Nice to see you here Professor. I concur...I have seen the neatest 'Star Trek and Star Wars devices' in my days. Nothing is impossible.

I note that a few Saints are looking for the cave in Southern Mexico for that very reason. My advice to them, "...the Lord will not permit you to find it. It is for one who will be the Seer, which is called by Lord, to complete the work of the Prophet Joseph Smith." However, that falls on death ears. [LOL]

[tiancum]

The official statement from the Church is that there has been no revelation concerning the location of the Book of Mormon events.

That was never said. Joseph, Oliver, Heber and many others received revelations as to specific locations. They are documented.

The church has no official position on locations. Not the revelation from the early days. The Locations don't really matter that much to me...I believe what the above have said, as I know they were the Lord's servants and backed up each other's testimony about the locations...beyond that...it mattereth not...LOL

[cintiejo]

I guess I don't understand why people want to know if the Nephite were in North or South America. Also why do we care where the cave is that contains all the records. The Lord in His own time will reveal the information to us. I think I would rather worry about knowing what is in the Book of Mormon then things that are unknown.

Just my humble opinion.

[LehiVermont]

Brethren,

Respectfully, I must differ: the Salt Lake Church has produced (or allowed to be produced) many publications on the "lands of the" BOM that are plastered with pictures of Mayan ruins....that speaks to locations!

-L

ETTE

KS

'12 Ready!

[Hemidakota]

LOL true on the art being filled with Mayan buildings and culturely dressed.

[Hemidakota]

I guess I don't understand why people want to know if the Nephite were in North or South America. Also why do we care where the cave is that contains all the records. The Lord in His own time will reveal the information to us. I think I would rather worry about knowing what is in the Book of Mormon then things that are unknown.

Just my humble opinion.

Validate point....

Something that is helpful for me and makes it interesting on my study earlier this year [January], while reading would visually try to paint the backdrop location, the actors included, and what is being presented while studying the BOM. I done this with several BOM proposed maps from different professors.

[poulsenll]

Validate point....

Something that is helpful for me and makes it interesting on my study earlier this year [January], while reading would visually try to paint the backdrop location, the actors included, and what is being presented while studying the BOM. I done this with several BOM proposed maps from different professors.

Hemidakota

I think that is a great idea.

I keep insisting that people consider all possible models as they read the Book of Mormon. If the model does not fit the Book of Mormon then one must consider why? I strongly suggest that one should draw their own simple map first. Base it on the information that Mormon inserted at the end of Alma 22 during his abridgement of Ammon and his brothers mission to the Lamanites. Although the time period that he was abridging was prior to the death of Christ, I seriously doubt that he would have inserted a discription, 350 Years after Christ, that did not corectly describe the lands as he knew them at the time he was making the abridgement. Here is a link to a primer that I wrote a couple of years ago for those who want to develop their own model of BoM geography. You have to be registered with MA&D in order to access it. It is in the Pundit forum.

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=17985

Larry P

[skalenfehl]

Awesome info, poulsen! Thank you.

[poulsenll]

Awesome info, poulsen! Thank you.

Thanks

There are many aspects of precolumbian cultures that differ significantly from our modern US culture and these differences impact the interpretation of the geographical descriptions found in the text of the Book of Mormon. For example, they thought of directions as sunrise, sunset, the position of the sun in the sky and the part of the sky where the sun was always absent. They thought of what was in there immediate vicinity rather than what was described in a book of maps or a globe of the entire earth.

After careful study of the early history of the Church, the Book of Mormon text and of many aspects of precolumbian New World cultures, I have come to my own conclusions about the geography described in the Book of Mormon. I invite everyone else to do the same.

Larry P

[Snow]

I agree...

The Central American model has one big, big problem, Cumorah...there would need to be two Cumorah's for it to be feasable, and the Church has stated without ambiguity that the Cumorah in the BofM is the Cumorah in Upstate NY...that's a major problem for the Central American theory...

Is that true?

I doubt it.

[Maya]

I tought that the BoM geography was South America. I thought Nephities and Lamanities were huge peoples...in millions.... untill I a few years a go found myself on FAIR to clare out something someone asked, that I couldnot with my words clarify to this person.

There was a forum... I found it very interesting...and then,there, I met Poulsenll

His thoughts changed the whole picture of BoM geography to me. It was fantastic! I am not saying he is right, I am right, some one elseis right... well see...

I have always been interested in arceology it is fun to think all possibilities and now the fun is even more fun! :) To pick up the BoM and try to find the land according to what ist says in the book is very challenging.

I dont really care if I am right or if someone else is, but it sure is fiun and interesting to be with to try to find out. I always have had aweird kind of interest and love thowards Mayas... Maybe because my real name is Maija=Maya:D.. (Which used to be my sighn in in FAIR/MAD boards)or maybe for some other reason, a whisper from somewhere far away, long time ago... too long to remember...

I have enjoyed reading official raports about BoM lands as well as Ainsworth and Poulsenll, Gardner... so much interesting to read and to ponder.

We can search and cearch, but as Hemi says, we wont find the truth before it is time to find it! But it still is fun!:)

[tiancum]

Is that true?

I doubt it.

The church officially hasn't, but Joseph, Oliver, Heber, and others made prophecies, and had revelations that it was. I cut and pasted a little of what they have said.