Saints and Homosexuality

[Redbeard]

Hi all!

I was born and raised in the church (no longer a member) and I'm a little confused on my parents opinions.

I really don't want a debate, I'm looking for peoples personal beliefs and the reasoning behind them!

So my problem is- The LDS church teaches that we are all here to be tried, we all have free agency to do as we wish, but we do have to live with those consequences. The 11th article of faith states-

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I realize they are talking specifically about religion, but I figure it would work for all major decisions in life.

Okay, so in my family in every election they always vote to ban gay marriage, or to outlaw gay rights.

What do you (members of the LDS church) vote, and how do you justify either your decision?

Just for the record, I am not myself homosexual, I have a fantastic girlfriend that I'm crazy about, but I am EXTREMELY libertarian and it really bugs me that the church teaches so much acceptance, love, and freedom of choice, but the members vote to ban anything they don't agree with... Is this just because I live in Idaho, or is this how the majority of LDS people believe?

Sorry for the rambling

[Vanhin]

The following is an indepth discussion on the Church's position on same gender attraction, and will be really helpful.

LDS Newsroom - Same-Gender Attraction

That is probably a good place to start, and you are getting info right from Church representatives. Not that we don't mind discussing it with you. :) It's just that the article is a good resource on this topic.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[Heavenguard]

For the record, I am not of the LDS church, rather a Baptist myself...

It's not something that we, as people, disagree with so much as something that God, whom we follow and worship, disagrees with, and we try to uphold the laws and morals given to us. If it were left to people's humanity, sure, some people would oppose gay marriage because it is something different, and people dislike change. On the other hand, humanity has accepted all sorts of wrongful acts as everyday fact, both in the past and the present.

My disagreeance (not a word, but you know what I mean) with homosexual marriage is not something I simply blindly follow "because the church said so", it's something I've thought about for a long time. On the one hand, as a Canadian citizen, I almost faithfully believe in the Charter of Rights, which legally guarantees equality to all.

But in the end, it came down to this:

The government is a ruling body that is supposed to lead and guide the people. Laws are set by the government to achieve that by condemning and allowing certain behaviours. But the government is not more "morally right" than the rest of the proletariat just because they've been selected by the people. And so what's legal is not necessarily what's right, (and conversely, what's illegal is not necessarily wrong).

We should submit to worldly authority (Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, Matt 22), but not where it conflicts with God's authority. (God's will on Earth, as it is in Heaven, Matt 5).

[Hemidakota]

Hi all!

I was born and raised in the church (no longer a member) and I'm a little confused on my parents opinions.

I really don't want a debate, I'm looking for peoples personal beliefs and the reasoning behind them!

So my problem is- The LDS church teaches that we are all here to be tried, we all have free agency to do as we wish, but we do have to live with those consequences. The 11th article of faith states-

I realize they are talking specifically about religion, but I figure it would work for all major decisions in life.

Okay, so in my family in every election they always vote to ban gay marriage, or to outlaw gay rights.

What do you (members of the LDS church) vote, and how do you justify either your decision?

Just for the record, I am not myself homosexual, I have a fantastic girlfriend that I'm crazy about, but I am EXTREMELY libertarian and it really bugs me that the church teaches so much acceptance, love, and freedom of choice, but the members vote to ban anything they don't agree with... Is this just because I live in Idaho, or is this how the majority of LDS people believe?

Sorry for the rambling

Thank you for being approachable brother.

[LehiVermont]

Brother Red,

I suppose the first question is: Why do LDS folk vote in Babyon's elections?...Pres Taylor would have advised differently...

Lehi

ETTE in '12

[Guest User-Removed]

Homosexuality is an abomination before God. One needs not give a fig newton about Charters or the like.

I'm frankly unaware of any state, where Gay Marriage is ALWAYS on the ballot...so if someone is voting every election cycle "NO" on Gay Marriage...please let me know...I'll call CNN.

There is a simple reason why we as Latter Day Saint's oppose Gay Marriage. Not only is it wrong and a sin, but once gays are allowed to be married...it won't be long until two of them litigate the Church because some "uncaring...mean spirited" Bishop refused to sign a Living Ordinance form to allow Adam and Steve to be sealed....

[Stone_of_Truth]

I don't see it as voting against homosexuality because of our religion, but because of our culture.

let me explain: If there is an election to allow gay unions and it passes, the effects of the election on our religion are very little. we still get to worship as we want, we still get to go to church, and read scriptures, and follow Christ the best we know how. But it does effect our society. the beauty of America is that we get to choose what we want to allow and what we don't want to allow into our society. In Idaho and in Utah (were i live now) the majority of the members of those societies don't want to allow gay unions. so they vote against it. It is the same in Wyoming (were i am from) but the reasons are completely different.

As far as my religion goes, I am content to allow consenting adults to do what they want as far as relationships go, that is their eternal right to agency. But, when it comes to how the society that I live in, that my kids grow up in, that I do my dealing day to day in, I prefer not to allow gay unions, that is why I vote against them.

It seems like a fine line, and to some people they may not be able to distinguish the two, but there really is a difference.

[Guest tomk]

In the LDS faith -- everything is pointing to, oriented toward, happening because of one core reality. Eternal increase. One day having spirit children of our own. Guiding them into their own exaltation, so that they, in turn, may have eternal increase. This is our joy, our hope. That is the fullness of Christ's Gospel -- the fruits.

Such cannot happen in a homosexual union in the eternities.

1 Cor. 11: 3, 7-9, 11-12

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

• • •

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

• • •

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

[HizWife625]

The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin

(Genesis 19:1-13;

Leviticus 18:22;

Romans 1:26-27;

1 Corinthians 6:9).

Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God.

The Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other.

All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc.

God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation

(1 Corinthians 6:11;

2 Corinthians 5:17).

[Redbeard]

I don't see it as voting against homosexuality because of our religion, but because of our culture.

let me explain: If there is an election to allow gay unions and it passes, the effects of the election on our religion are very little. we still get to worship as we want, we still get to go to church, and read scriptures, and follow Christ the best we know how. But it does effect our society. the beauty of America is that we get to choose what we want to allow and what we don't want to allow into our society. In Idaho and in Utah (were i live now) the majority of the members of those societies don't want to allow gay unions. so they vote against it. It is the same in Wyoming (were i am from) but the reasons are completely different.

As far as my religion goes, I am content to allow consenting adults to do what they want as far as relationships go, that is their eternal right to agency. But, when it comes to how the society that I live in, that my kids grow up in, that I do my dealing day to day in, I prefer not to allow gay unions, that is why I vote against them.

It seems like a fine line, and to some people they may not be able to distinguish the two, but there really is a difference.

Thank you, that is exactly the type of response I was looking for. Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with it, but I've said that I wont argue in this thread and so I won't . But seriously, great response.

[Redbeard]

The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin

(Genesis 19:1-13;

Leviticus 18:22;

Romans 1:26-27;

1 Corinthians 6:9).

Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When a person continues in sin and disbelief, the Bible tells us that God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God.

The Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other.

All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc.

God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation

(1 Corinthians 6:11;

2 Corinthians 5:17).

I am extremely familiar with both the BOM and bible. I'm looking for peoples PERSONAL reasons for voting against homosexuality rights while the LDS church has a more "live and let live" type approach (sp?) to most worldly topics (I hope that makes sense...)

^sorry if that sounds offensive, trying to simplify the question. If you have a more appropriate way to write it out I will happily edit.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Here in England gay 'marriage' is permitted by law. It is actually legally referred to as 'civil partnership'. The Bible tells me that homosexuality is not of God, but my beliefs tell me that all people have their own agency and the right to decide if they want to follow that or not. Therefore I do not believe I have any right to tell them not to do it. I can tell them that the Bible says not to do it, but the choice is theirs.

So, although I do not approve of same sex union I defend their right to 'marry' in a free society.

[Aphrodite]

I don't have a problem with gay people. I have several gay friends who are some of the nicest people I know. They come across much better when they can say, i respect people to live their life the way they choose, compared to a ranting fanatic about the evils of homosexuality. As far as I can see, the only reason the church thinks it is wrong to be gay is because you can't have children NATURALLY. They can still adopt, plus somepeople remain childless by choice. Why is this not as much of an abomination as being gay in itself? Dont get me wrong, I have no problem with gay people, I believe in being non-judgemental and allowing people to live the life they choose-But I don't think it is right for gay people to adopt, I believe a child needs a Mum and a Dad. But apart from that I have no problem at all. I dont see it as my business what people do in their bedrooms and no one has a right to tell you. Plus, thinking of one of my gay friends, who is the nicest man you could meet, very kind, fair, and I could never imagine him shouting in a million years, I find it very hard to accept that he would be considered 'evil' when he has a more Christian attitude than many members I know.

[Aphrodite]

Well said Willow, you said it far more eloquently than I could :)

[Hemidakota]

There is reason why we should not allow it to become law [taken from excerpts of 'Same Gender - Attraction':

PUBLIC AFFAIRS: You talked about the harm that could come on society by redefining marriage. What would you say to those people who declare: “I know gay people who are in long-term committed relationships. They’re great people. They love each other. What harm is it going to do my marriage as a heterosexual to allow them that same ‘rite?’

ELDER WICKMAN: Let me say again what I said a moment ago. I believe that that argument is true sophistry, because marriage is a unified institution. Marriage means a committed, legally sanctioned relationship between a man and a woman. That’s what it means. That’s what it means in the revelations. That’s what it means in the secular law. You cannot have that marriage coexisting institutionally with something else called same-gender marriage. It simply is a definitional impossibility. At such point as you now, as an institution, begin to recognize a legally-sanctioned relationship, a committed relationship between two people of the same gender, you have now redefined the institution to being one of genderless marriage.

As we’ve mentioned in answer to other questions, [genderless marriage] is contrary to God’s law, to revealed Word. Scripture, ancient and modern, could not be clearer on the definition that the Lord and His agents have given to marriage down through the dispensations.

But it has a profound effect in a very secular way on everybody else. What happens in somebody’s house down the street does in very deed have an effect on what happens in my house and how it’s treated. To suggest that in the face of these millennia of history and the revelations of God and the whole human pattern they have the right to redefine the whole institution for everyone is presumptuous in the extreme and terribly wrong-headed.

ELDER OAKS: Another point to be made about this is made in a question. If a couple who are cohabiting, happy, and committed to one another want to have their relationship called a marriage, why do they want that? Considering what they say they have, why do they want to add to it the legal status of marriage that has been honored and experienced for thousands of years? What is it that is desired by those who advocate same-gender marriage? If that could be articulated on some basis other than discrimination, which is not a very good argument, it would be easier to answer the question that you have asked, and I think it would reveal the soundness of what we’ve already heard.

There are certain indicia of marriage — certain legal and social consequences and certain legitimacy — which if given to some relationship other than marriage between a man and a woman tend to degrade if not destroy the institution that’s been honored over so many thousands of years.

In addition, if people want to legalize a particular relationship, we need to be careful if that kind of relationship has been disapproved for millennia. Suddenly there’s a call to legalize it so they can feel better about themselves. That argument proves a little too much. Suppose a person is making a living in some illegal behavior, but feels uneasy about it. (He may be a professional thief or he may be selling a service that is illegal, or whatever it may be.) Do we go out and legalize his behavior because he’s being discriminated against in his occupational choices or because he doesn’t feel well about what he’s doing and he wants a ‘feel good’ example, or he wants his behavior legitimized in the eyes of society or his family? I think the answer is that we do not legalize behavior for those reasons unless they are very persuasive reasons brought forward to make a change in the current situation.

[HizWife625]

RedBeard......No offense taken whatsoever......

Those are my beliefs and why.....God's word is perfect and complete. I trust it completely.

He created Eve for Adam.......He destroyed a city due to homsexuality. He condemns it and it is an abomination of His creation.

Wife submit to husband and likewise husband submit to wife...... Not husband to husband or wife to wife.

Is that better?

[Redbeard]

RedBeard......No offense taken whatsoever......

Those are my beliefs and why.....God's word is perfect and complete. I trust it completely.

He created Eve for Adam.......He destroyed a city due to homsexuality. He condemns it and it is an abomination of His creation.

Wife submit to husband and likewise husband submit to wife...... Not husband to husband or wife to wife.

Is that better?

Lol, thank you

I tried writing a sentace to clarify what you are saying, but I couldn't make it not sound rude lol, so I gave up.

[HizWife625]

Gotcha...... thanks for the chuckle.

[Guest User-Removed]

Here in England gay 'marriage' is permitted by law. It is actually legally referred to as 'civil partnership'.

So, although I do not approve of same sex union I defend their right to 'marry' in a free society.

Civil Partnership is not the same as marriage...at least not here in the States...

BUT...I'm curious...since you feel sodomites should be allowed to be legally and lawfully married...When Adam and Steve decide to get married in say the Preston Temple...should they have a white wedding?????? <very big tongue in cheek>

[Aphrodite]

You have no choice BUT to have a white wedding in the temple, gay or not!!!! :)

[Guest User-Removed]

You have no choice BUT to have a white wedding in the temple, gay or not!!!! :)

We'll give that response...two snaps and a twist...bwahahahahaha

[Moksha]

: Why do LDS folk vote in Babyon's elections?...Pres Taylor would have advised differently...

He would have been right. The Prime Directive of the Saints dated 2421, clearly states that "they should not seek to vote in the elections of past cultures when they are time traveling".

I would like to point out that LDS people, regardless of whether they should or not, have varying opinions about homosexuals in the LDS Church. The monolithic feeling against them does not exist. My guess is that some of the rank and file are more accepting of diversity. On the other hand there are rank and file members that have even more strident feelings against homosexuals than the leadership.

[crytsprospect]

This is one of those subjects I leave to God. I give my love and support to everyone and I can do that without agreeing with what they do. It is not our place to judge and it is a bit confusing to me but I have total faith in our Father in Heaven to work it out.

[Elphaba]

it won't be long until two of them litigate the Church because some "uncaring...mean spirited" Bishop refused to sign a Living Ordinance form to allow Adam and Steve to be sealed....

The First Amendment ensures all churches have the right to worship as they may. I doubt any lawyer would take the case of a person who wanted to pursue action against the Church for its beliefs and doctrine, including not allowing homosexuals to marry in the temple. She would lose, and rightly so.

The Church also has the right to encourage its members to vote against same-sex marriage laws.

Having said this, I am adamantly in favor of same-sex marriage. I also find it contemptible the way many faithful members who are homosexual, and have not broken any laws of the Church, i.e., the Law of Chastity, are treated by ward members as if they are pariahs. I wish the local Church authorities would teach their congregations that being gay is not a sin, and that those who are faithful and obedient to the Church's laws are not to be treated any differently than any other member.

Actually, even if a gay person has broken any laws of the Church, he still should be treated with the respect any human being deserves, including the ability to attend LDS Church services without being ostracized because of his sexual orientation.

Elphaba

[Moksha]

Here is a short LDS discussion about socialization versus biology regarding homosexuality, that may be of interest:

Socialization vs. Biology - Beliefnet Forums