Saints and Homosexuality

[Elphaba]

Elphaba...

I had a Rabbi who once taught me a valuable lesson..."When you show an honest man his mistake...He either stops being mistaken...or he stops being honest..."

Would you tend to agree or disagree with my dearly departed Rabbi?

I am not going to spar with you.

Your obsequious one-sentence posts add nothing to the conversation. Either stay on task and write substantive posts in reply to mine, or don't. If you don't, I am not going to reply.

Elphaba

[Guest User-Removed]

All....

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has repeatedly stated that marriage is an eternal principal, BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN...Yet, I have watched as many socalled LDS have wiggled around to find faulth with what our Prophets have said to us.

I give not one fig newton what Anti's, Apostates or Athiests have to say on this subject...

"We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children."

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

My posts have NEVER been about Homosexuality in general...No one in their right mind advocates any sort of action against homosexuals...

Having said that...My position concerning "Gay Marriage" has always been consistant with that of the First Presidency.

Those who are Anti, Apostate or Athiest clearly have problems with what the First Presidency has repeated stated.

To paraphrase an Apostle of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...who are you going to side with...The First Presidency...or the Anti's, Apostates and Athiests???

[azazel420]

MyDogSkip:

Religious zeal is fine. It shouldn't supercede living in a free society. One of the principal tenets of the LDS church is respect for the law of the land. As a US citizen one should consider the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and thus it should be respected above all other laws of the land.

Religious freedom is an interesting beast. When you start denying the right of another based on your "right" not to be religiously offended you open the door for others to limit your actions based on the right to not be offended. Homosexual union clearly offends you religiously. Well what if God offends me religiously? It doesn't but suppose it does. Am I right in limitting your free exercise of religion because I'm offended by God?

You have been given the right of a free man or woman to worship and believe as you choose. You have not been given and can't morally assume the right to force others to believe what you do, or to accept a compromised status because they don't.

There are over 1000 federal laws in which marital status plays a part. Marital status is a considerable factor in tax codes.

I'm not a homosexual but I will defend their right to believe and act on their beliefs to the death. Just as I'm not Mormon but I will defend your right to worship your God to the death.

[Guest User-Removed]

MyDogSkip:

Religious zeal is fine. It shouldn't supercede living in a free society. One of the principal tenets of the LDS church is respect for the law of the land. As a US citizen one should consider the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and thus it should be respected above all other laws of the land.

Religious freedom is an interesting beast. When you start denying the right of another based on your "right" not to be religiously offended you open the door for others to limit your actions based on the right to not be offended. Homosexual union clearly offends you religiously. Well what if God offends me religiously? It doesn't but suppose it does. Am I right in limitting your free exercise of religion because I'm offended by God?

You have been given the right of a free man or woman to worship and believe as you choose. You have not been given and can't morally assume the right to force others to believe what you do, or to accept a compromised status because they don't.

There are over 1000 federal laws in which marital status plays a part. Marital status is a considerable factor in tax codes. To deny homosexuals equal treatment under the law because your God doesn't like gay marriage is both wrong and backwards.

I'm not a homosexual but I will defend their right to believe and act on their beliefs to the death. Just as I'm not Mormon but I will defend your right to worship your God to the death.

I'm curious....I know what 420 is...but I seem to recall a Denzel Washington movie where Azazel was a term for the Devil???

Can you enlighten us as to the etyomology of the term?

TIA

[azazel420]

Azazel (Aramaic: רמשנאל, Hebrew: עזאזל, Aze'ezel Arabic: عزازل Azazil) is an enigmatic name from the Hebrew scriptures and Apocrypha, where the name is used interchangeably with Rameel and Gadriel. The word's first appearance is in Leviticus 16, where a goat is designated "for Azazel" and outcast in the desert as part of Yom Kippur.

Azazel (Sayan) (‘ăzaz’ēl) is believed to mean "God has been strong" or "God strengthens" from Hebrew ‘ăzaz, third person singular past participal form of ‘āzaz, "to be strong", and ’ēl, "God".[1] Another theory uses ‘āzaz in its metaphorical sense of "impudent" (i.e., strengthened against someone) to mean "impudent to God". Azazel is also known by the variant spellings "Azael" "Aziel" and "Asiel." (These names also translate to 'Angel of Death)

[Guest User-Removed]

Thanks....

[ztodd]

MyDogSkip:

Religious zeal is fine. It shouldn't supercede living in a free society. One of the principal tenets of the LDS church is respect for the law of the land. As a US citizen one should consider the Constitution as the supreme law of the land and thus it should be respected above all other laws of the land.

Religious freedom is an interesting beast. When you start denying the right of another based on your "right" not to be religiously offended you open the door for others to limit your actions based on the right to not be offended. Homosexual union clearly offends you religiously. Well what if God offends me religiously? It doesn't but suppose it does. Am I right in limitting your free exercise of religion because I'm offended by God?

You have been given the right of a free man or woman to worship and believe as you choose. You have not been given and can't morally assume the right to force others to believe what you do, or to accept a compromised status because they don't.

There are over 1000 federal laws in which marital status plays a part. Marital status is a considerable factor in tax codes.

I'm not a homosexual but I will defend their right to believe and act on their beliefs to the death. Just as I'm not Mormon but I will defend your right to worship your God to the death.

It's not about being religiously offended. It's about preserving the time honored institution of marriage. If you allow non-traditional marriages, it will destroy families and thus destroy our society. It's what history has proven.

We're not trying to take anyone's rights away. A man with homosexual tendencies has the same right to be married to a woman that I do, if he wishes to do so.

I also will defend everyone's right to believe in God and act on their belief in God. But I won't defend non-traditional marriage- that's just harmful to society.

[MichaelPAGuy]

Hasn't parts of Canada and a few European countries allowed gay marriage? I don't see those socities crumbling. They are actually doing quite well for themselves. Gay marriage is in my opinion, not harmful to society.

[Guest User-Removed]

We're not trying to take anyone's rights away. A man with homosexual tendencies has the same right to be married to a woman that I do, if he wishes to do so.

I also will defend everyone's right to believe in God and act on their belief in God. But I won't defend non-traditional marriage- that's just harmful to society.

OMFH...Thank you ztodd...someone here finally gets it.

[Guest User-Removed]

Hasn't parts of Canada and a few European countries allowed gay marriage? I don't see those socities crumbling. They are actually doing quite well for themselves. Gay marriage is in my opinion, not harmful to society.

You are quite correct on your geography...I could get all up and zenophobic on this angle of the topic, but I won't.

Thank though, I forgot that Adam and Steve can go to that really beautiful City Hall in Toronto and get hitched.

[skalenfehl]

I do not agree with nor do I defend homosexuality in the least degree and I side with our First Presidency. But MyDogSkip, remember that even Christ sat and ate with sinners. We are all sinners and those with homosexual tendencies deserve our friendship and compassion as much as anyone else. They are God's children as are we all. Love the man (or woman), but not the sin.

[Guest User-Removed]

I do not agree with nor do I defend homosexuality in the least degree and I side with our First Presidency. But MyDogSkip, remember that even Christ sat and ate with sinners. We are all sinners and those with homosexual tendencies deserve our friendship and compassion as much as anyone else. They are God's children as are we all. Love the man (or woman), but not the sin.

First off, you are being EXTREMELY JUDGEMENTAL here...Again...rather than pander to those who seek to mock the word of the First Presidency...read and REREAD what I've constantly directed my comments towards...not Homosexuals...but the issue of Gay Marriage...

I will say one thing for these thread...I stand all amazed at the number of Church members ... who are just a little bit smarter than our leaders called of the Lord...Again...lest anyone suddenly find their knickers in a twist...NOT directed at any individual...just a general observation....

[Guest Topspin]

I disagree, it is not wise to think we are smarter than our own Church leaders....

Gay Marriage is destructive. I do not support it. It is like sexual abuse.

Abusing of one's bodies which is contrary to the Gospel plan.

[skalenfehl]

read and REREAD what I've constantly directed my comments towards...not Homosexuals...but the issue of Gay Marriage...

That part I missed. I understand and I agree. I do not support gay marriage either. Thank you for clearing that up for me.

[Liesl]

I feel that so many ppl have a fear, a fear of the unknown. We are often quick to point fingers and allow our tongues to form cutting remarks. At the end of the day, no body knows who, how or why. My personal belief is that it is not appropriate to have same sex marriages because of the bigger picture. Many ppl have a terrible trial to get through never mind overcome, making a civil union legal makes getting through that much more difficult for the individual to make the right choice despite their preferences.

This is where the true meaning of "Bridal your passions" comes into play. Even though a same -sex union may be desired.... does'nt make it right. Just extremely difficult to get over.

Hey, just because the desire to strangle my husband at time comes to mind.... does'nt make it right.

Some answers we won't get in this life, especially to homosexuality, but until then I feel we need to stay close to the Spirit cause through him it will be made known, just like everything else in life.

[lilered]

Members of the church have raised their arm to the square and took an oath to support our church leaders. Temple Recommend owners also have a chance to answer the question with a simple yes or no. The church has taken a stand on this issue.

There is long standing scriptorial witness that God intended for marriage to be between a man and a woman and that it is a sin to practice homosexulality. The center of Gods the gospel plan is the family. So he certaintly does not sactify Gay Marriage.

It seems pretty clear to me that if we are to be obediant to God on this subject, we should reject these lifestyle choices as sins and abomination. As stated by earlier by skalenfel, we should however continue to love all people, for we all are sinners.

So I guess for Church members - what is the issue? Do you or don't you support the church leaders and the churchs and Gods position, which are the one and the same. Simple yes or no isn't it? There really isn't any wiggle room here is there.

[MichaelPAGuy]

Why shouldn't gays have the right to marry? Heterosexuals also mock marriage. Look at Brittney Spears. How long did her 1st marriage last? Some gay couples have been together longer than straight people. It doesn't bother me, and what they do with their lives, in my opinion , is their business. Equality for all.

[Guest Topspin]

Because there are no temple blessings at all for same-sex marriages.

Adam and Steve cannot have any temple blessings if they

choose to remain married as Adam and Steve.

[Casslan]

Homosexuals can be members but only if they remain Celibate. But as soon as they cross the line and actively engage in homosexual practices, then they are excommunicated. Homosexuality is against the law of God, and by being sexually active they break God's law and thus have to be excommunicated.

The is same applied to heterrosexuals - whether adultery or fornication - though disfellowship may be used at the discretion of the Bishop for the latter.

In all cases, repentance is necessary in order to be able to return to Church or full fellowship.

Well, that's my understanding anyway!

[WillowTheWhisp]

I hope I can explain myself properly here and not be misunderstood.

It's a complex question.

I'll try to make a few brief statements without getting tangled up.

Homosexual union is not approved of by Heavenly Father. Man does not belong with man nor woman with woman. Heavenly Father's plan includes man and woman and family.

Homosexual people are drawn to those of their own gender. They are often repulsed by the thought of a relationship with someone of the opposite sex just as much as heterosexual people are repulsed by the thought of a relationship with someone of the same sex.

Why should this be? We do not know. We do not know why some people are given this extremely difficult challenge. Some try to overcome it by living a celibate lifestyle, but the church teaches that only by being married and sealed and living as an eternal couple can we gain exaltation. So some try to live a life which is abhorrent to them and some fail to do so and people are hurt. (wives, husbands, children).

Some do not care because they either believe we have misunderstood God and call us non-Christian for not accepting them as God made them (ie gay Christians) or do not care because they do not even believe there is a God.

When it comes to permitting and allowing then I am reminded that we are all given free will and agency to choose for ourselves, right back to Adam. Heavenly Father forces no-one.

So, therefore I believe that it is not my place to say this must not be made legal (or in the case of the UK where it is already legal, that it must be made illegal) That would be me forcing my will (or even Heavenly Father's will) upon another human being and this is something that even He will not do. I don't believe I have the right to do that.

However, as a Church we do have standards to abide by and the gay person can make a choice to accept our standards and live by them and thus be a welcome and active member of the church - or choose to go against those standards and to live a lifestyle contrary to that taught by the church and thus cut themselves off from the blessings.

Whatever their choice, it should be theirs and as skalenfehl said earlier even if we do not approve of the choice it does not mean that we should not still love them. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Guest Topspin]

"Some do not care because they either believe we have misunderstood God and call us non-Christian for not accepting them as God made them (ie gay Christians) or do not care because they do not even believe there is a God."

Yes a high number of 'gays' are indeed atheist.

Whatever their choice, it should be theirs and as skalenfehl said earlier even if we do not approve of the choice it does not mean that we should not still love them. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

We are bound to God as his servants through the covenants we make with him.

Pity that some forget their contracts

[crytsprospect]

Thank You Top for saying it so clearly... I agree

[Guest Topspin]

This church aint the Love Boat or an Amusement Park. This really is a Kingdom. For there are laws and covenants we have to observe and just like in any kingdom, consequences for not obeying them so we are not free at all to do as we jolly well please at all. But we are only free to

do as God wants us to do by the laws of his kingdom..

If God sends out a proclamation from his kingdom to the world saying that same-sex marriages are sinful and wrong and not accepted by me, then that's the law of his kingdom. Who are we to tell God how to run his own kingdom? If God says, you cannot have same sex relations or express physical feelings of the attraction with the same sex, then that's the law of his kingdom, we may not like it, but that's the law and as his servants we are bound by covenant to observe the law. Those who refuse to, well there's the church discipline system.

[Misshalfway]

What can the church do better with these complex issues? The church and just members in everyday life?

[Guest Topspin]

All that the General Authorities of the Church can do is to try to encourage us and ask the members to support us to help us to live and observe the law that God has decreed..