Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[WillowTheWhisp]

But the quote says:

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.”

I don't doubt that sin leads people away from the Church but I don't personally accept that it is the only reason that people leave the church and that people do not leave the church due to rejection of doctrine. People leave other churches and join ours due to rejection of doctrine. Why should it be so difficult to believe that it cannot happen the other way? I know an ex-Bishop who no longer believes the Book of Abraham and left the church because of that. He's a bit too old and frail for lusts of the flesh.

I don't have access to the Doctrinal New Testament Commentary. Is it available online?

[Canuck Mormon]

I don't remember making such a statement Moksha, but I could be wrong. I think there is some truth in the statement, but there are exceptions to the rule, like Willow. I, for one, was not an exception. I left because I wanted to do other things on Sundays. Did I stop believing in God? No. In fact, the Church was the only Church that seemed to make sense to me. I just didn't want to do what it asked. Now I realize that I am happier doing the things the Lord wants me to than when I did what I wanted to do.

[HiJolly]

Cut me some slack...Jolly...two straight losses for the Lakers.....<VBG>

If Kobe gets his back into shape, the Lakers will have nothing to fear.

HiJolly

[THIRDpersonviewer]

One great principle that the Church teaches, through the Atonement, is a sacrifice of our will, to that of the Father. Mosiah 15:7 states it best.

7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

Of course, this references Jesus Christ. However, He is the Son of God. Are we not sons and daughters of God also? One of the things that made the Atonement work was a complete submission of the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father. This was the sacrifice offered, by the sinless one. If He had not offered that up, he would have sinned. Then there would have been no Atonement, and we could not be saved, we wold then be forever cast out.

Joseph F. Smith in D&C 138:12-14 states,(emphasis on verse 13)

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

The similitude is the sacrifice of our will. For those willing, those will be the ones who receive the full blessings of the Atonement and will be saved into the Celestial Kingdom. Otherwise, one who is lukewarm in the gospel who doesn't submit to the will of the Lord in full, will gain a terrestrial inheritance.

Now we are not perfect, but that is why we are judged according to our hearts. The Law of the Resurrection of the Dead talks about this. We are judged by where our hearts desires are. If they are in the Lord, then we receive a Celestial Inheritance. So as we strive to be one with the Lord and His will, then we grow spiritually and have a greater capacity to resist sin and the temptations of the adversary.

If we have the Law, then we must live the Law to the best of our ability, because that is what we will be held accountable for and thus judged by. We are held accountable for what we have, and thus we can fall under condemnation or be justified. For where we fall short, the Lord looks at our hearts. If our hearts are with his, then we are justified, and have no need to fear. Moses 6:60

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

[Hemidakota]

"Sin" is the knowing breaking of commandments. Sometimes when a thing is called "sin" it gets a big reaction, but it's not THAT big of a deal.

You're commanded to be humble and submissive and forgiving...

It's not easy. We all sin all the time in that sense.

McConkie's statement shouldn't be taken in an accusatory manner(although it quite seems like that's how he meant it.) It should be a tool that makes us recognize, "The reason these people fell away is because they have some other desire or need. If we want to help, we should try to find out how to overcome or fulfill it."

You hit the hammer on the nail head. Our Main desire is shifted from what should be our driving force [Godhead] to one of lesser and not eternal ones.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

But the quote says:

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.”

I don't doubt that sin leads people away from the Church but I don't personally accept that it is the only reason that people leave the church and that people do not leave the church due to rejection of doctrine. People leave other churches and join ours due to rejection of doctrine. Why should it be so difficult to believe that it cannot happen the other way? I know an ex-Bishop who no longer believes the Book of Abraham and left the church because of that. He's a bit too old and frail for lusts of the flesh.

I don't have access to the Doctrinal New Testament Commentary. Is it available online?

My mistake, there is one more sentence to be added to the quote. It continues, "... The choice is not between doctrinal concepts, but between differing ways of life."

It depends on how you look at it. It is a foundation. Not the branches. Just like the Atonement is the foundation of the Gospel, sin is the foundation of Apostasy. All the small things like rejecting the book of Abraham or not going to Church or whatever are the effects of the desire to live a different lifestyle than the one which the Lord has prescribed for the manner of happiness. Just like tithing and temple worship are part of the Atonement. By rejecting revelations and truths, then they are sinning, and following their own desires, or lusts of the flesh. They are not following the way of the Lord. They are rejecting Him, which is what apostasy is all about.

Also, I don't believe there is any way to see DNTC online. I looked about 5 or 6 months ago, but I couldn't find it. I actually ended up finding my grandpa's in a box in the attic, so I was kinda lucky to get one.:)

[WillowTheWhisp]

My mistake, there is one more sentence to be added to the quote. It continues, "... The choice is not between doctrinal concepts, but between differing ways of life."

Then I'm definitely a weirdo because I continued to live the lifestyle, even the Word of Wisdom.

[Hemidakota]

I will add this, "The Atonement is the Gospel of Christ."

[Canuck Mormon]

Then I'm definitely a weirdo because I continued to live the lifestyle, even the Word of Wisdom.

I don't think you're a weirdo Willow. There are people out there that live good, wholesome lives, even living the WoW, that are not members of the Church.

[Hemidakota]

Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Volume 1, The Gospels. by Bruce R. McConkie | LibraryThing DNTC online Library

[HiJolly]

I don't think you're a weirdo Willow. There are people out there that live good, wholesome lives, even living the WoW, that are not members of the Church.

Amen.

HiJolly

[Guest User-Removed]

Also, I don't believe there is any way to see DNTC online. I looked about 5 or 6 months ago, but I couldn't find it. I actually ended up finding my grandpa's in a box in the attic, so I was kinda lucky to get one.:)

Amen to that!!!!

[Andrew777]

...

[Hemidakota]

I am in disagreement with both Elder Pratt and President Young on one issue but that doesn't mean I do disrepect them both. In fact they are both had their callings and election MADE SURE.

As it was with Elder McConkie. If you were there when he spoke his last farewell conference speech, you would know what I am referring too.

Now, is there anyone on this board can say the same, please do so and speak ill will against him.

There is something about the Elect of GOD whom the Savior choosed Whether they be General Authorities or not, becareful how you speak about them. Something, I don't do in this flesh, knowing the FATHER's reaction and fallout.

[HiJolly]

I am in disagreement with both Elder Pratt and President Young on one issue but that doesn't mean I do disrepect them both. In fact they are both had their callings and election MADE SURE.

As it was with Elder McConkie. If you were there when he spoke his last farewell conference speech, you would know what I am referring too.

Now, is there anyone on this board can say the same, please do so and speak ill will against him.

There is something about the Elect of GOD whom the Savior choosed Whether they be General Authorities or not, becareful how you speak about them. Something, I don't do in this flesh, knowing the FATHER's reaction and fallout.

Actually, Hemi, I seriously doubt that anyone on this board, who might have had this blessing in their lives, would respond to your request. Perhaps you weren't serious. Were you upset when you wrote this?

Not that I have been so blessed myself.

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Have faith sister, there are a few here among the many.

[azazel420]

I would say it's generally accepted by the church that there is but one man who is infallible and his name is Jesus Christ. All other men sin, all other men can be wrong. Unless something is spoken from direct revelation from God it's only as true as it holds from experience, or agrees with the teachings of Jesus.

I find that people leave for many reasons. Sometimes it's because of the attitudes of members they deal with (man is fallible and this applies to any organization). Some leave because they find fault in some doctrines of the church. Many who are born into the church and raised as an LDS member grow up to find they lack faith in the teachings of the church. Certainly many people leave because they don't want to uphold the lifestyle preached as necessary by the church. One would be hard pressed to make this a universal constant.

[john doe]

I had a response all typed up, but my computer won't let me post it. I'll have to wait a couple days to get back to it.

[Andrew777]

I find that people leave for many reasons. Sometimes it's because of the attitudes of members they deal with (man is fallible and this applies to any organization).

This is somewhat true it applies at different levels in orginizations, in the LDS church it's institutionalized. Look I have three callings and clean the church every week (even though I'm unemployed and my family supports me so I have all the time in the world) that guy over there refused his one! Even if the guy over there works 70 hours a week to support his wife and family and can't make time for home teaching and a bunch of callings.

There are churches out there that have a few bad apples but actually practice what they preach, Christ said the greatest commandment is love and that we are not to judge each other over sin (temple recommend interviews). He died for all of us to reach the 'highest' level of exaltation not an elect few that can go inside a man made building because their sins are somehow lesser then the rest of humanity's sins.

[Guest User-Removed]

As it was with Elder McConkie. If you were there when he spoke his last farewell conference speech, you would know what I am referring too.

Now, is there anyone on this board can say the same, please do so and speak ill will against him.

Hey Hemi...you mean this one...????

Elder McConkie's Last Talk

"And now as pertaining to this perfect Atonement, I testify that it took place at Gethsemane and at Golgotha. And as pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify tha pertaining to Jesus Christ, I testify that he is the Son of the Living God who was crucified for the sins of the world. He is our Lord, our God, and our King. This I know of myself independent of any other person. I am one of his Witnesses. And in the coming day I will feel the nail marks in his hands and in his feet and shall wet his feet with my tears. But I shall not know any better then than I know now that he is God's almighty Son and he is our Savior and Redeemer and that Salvation comes in and through his atoning blood and in no other way."

All I can add to this...and I'm unworthy at best...is to say AMEN and AMEN

[Hemidakota]

Yes. A very moving moment for those who 'eyes are open' to note of soon-to-be-passing of a great brother.

I have spoke to a child last week, where she explained that she was visited by three people. She was young and naive to the scriptures, I asked about these three people, she gave one name of the three. Interesting, I didn't tell her, they were those three Nephites who were spoken by Moroni in the BOM. She indeed a special child. She at this time, would fall into that category.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Volume 1, The Gospels. by Bruce R. McConkie | LibraryThing DNTC online Library

I tried that link but I got a '404'. Maybe I should try again tomorrow.

I am in disagreement with both Elder Pratt and President Young on one issue but that doesn't mean I do disrepect them both. In fact they are both had their callings and election MADE SURE.

As it was with Elder McConkie. If you were there when he spoke his last farewell conference speech, you would know what I am referring too.

Now, is there anyone on this board can say the same, please do so and speak ill will against him.

There is something about the Elect of GOD whom the Savior choosed Whether they be General Authorities or not, becareful how you speak about them. Something, I don't do in this flesh, knowing the FATHER's reaction and fallout.

I was there when Elder McConkie gave that final talk and I felt the spirit. I knew how close he was then and how thin the veil was around him. Even so I can say that if he truly believed everyone who left the church did so because they could not control their lusts and passions then he was mistaken. I left. That was not why I left. I still controlled myself. I still lived as a Latter-day Saint, so did my late husband. I cannot believe that we were the only ones. In fact I'm sure I've read of others.

I am not speaking ill will against him. If he actually thought that then all I am saying is that he was giving a human opinion and as such was mistaken, it's not a blanket situation which applies to everyone. That does not mean that I think he was any less chosen of God. Maybe one day I'll meet him and maybe then he'll say "OK, you were one who didn't leave for that reason."

[HiJolly]

I am not speaking ill will against him. If he actually thought that then all I am saying is that he was giving a human opinion and as such was mistaken, it's not a blanket situation which applies to everyone. That does not mean that I think he was any less chosen of God. Maybe one day I'll meet him and maybe then he'll say "OK, you were one who didn't leave for that reason."

...or maybe he'll say "Ok, let me tell you what I *really* meant by that..."

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

I tried that link but I got a '404'. Maybe I should try again tomorrow.

I was there when Elder McConkie gave that final talk and I felt the spirit. I knew how close he was then and how thin the veil was around him. Even so I can say that if he truly believed everyone who left the church did so because they could not control their lusts and passions then he was mistaken. I left. That was not why I left. I still controlled myself. I still lived as a Latter-day Saint, so did my late husband. I cannot believe that we were the only ones. In fact I'm sure I've read of others.

I am not speaking ill will against him. If he actually thought that then all I am saying is that he was giving a human opinion and as such was mistaken, it's not a blanket situation which applies to everyone. That does not mean that I think he was any less chosen of God. Maybe one day I'll meet him and maybe then he'll say "OK, you were one who didn't leave for that reason."

You need an account first.

I do understand. As to calling the Catholic Church the AC church in the Mormon Doctrine. I had to pray over this myself to find the truth. When we find the truth, it changes our observational viewpoint on the topic and the person.

Bruce was not 100-percent with knowledge but he sure opened the door for others to strive to the do the same - learn the scriptures and be well versed.

[WillowTheWhisp]

...or maybe he'll say "Ok, let me tell you what I *really* meant by that..."

HiJolly

That would be interesting.

You need an account first.

That's what I tried to do but got the 404.