skalenfehl

Ditto.

I've always loved his talks. :)

Well done! As and aside, speaking of Tamar and Rahab, I think it bears noting that Jesus Christ also descended from David and Bathsheba (Matt 1:6). I think Bathsheba gets a bad rap sometimes, but in that instance, it was David who was a very bad boy, and an anointed king, no less.

I think about this every day. It is something that has been on my mind now for years. I used to study the scriptures regularly, but today I ponder them deeply almost all day long and pray about a lot of what the Spirit has taught me. At this point in time, all we can do is rise up individually. Prepare ourselves and help each other prepare. There are so many things to distract us, though. I'm thankful for forums like this one where we can come together and talk about these things and help each other grow. This is a very excellent topic. I still study the scriptures regularly, but where regularly used to be a chapter or so a day, today it is hours per day, even books.

I agree keys exist in our church. They are necessary to do important work. However, there are still keys of the mysteries of the kingdom of God and keys of the knowledge of God that we ought to possess. I mean each of us. This is what "Moses plainly taught" to everyone. This is what Joseph also tried to teach the saints. If we had ALL the keys, we'd be Zion and more. Zion is not yet redeemed and therefore, we do not have association with angels, with translated beings and with God. We would necessarily be as Enoch--translated. Alas, we still wander in the wilderness, as it were. There are greater keys, still, such as the keys of resurrection. But that is almost another topic alone.

It isn't too difficult now to see the stark contrast between possessing a "portion" of the priesthood and the "fullness" of the priesthood. It is one thing to "have the form of godliness" but to deny the "power thereof." This is what the Lord talked with Joseph Smith about in his first vision in the grove.

Going back to Alma 13:3. There is so much there. The foreknowledge of God. A surgeon will go into the operating room with nothing less than his trusted precision instruments. A lumberjack uses tools, which are time tested and proven to clear a forest efficiently and effectively. Christ was foreordained to be our Savior. There is no other name under heaven whereby man could be saved. Jehova possessed the power and attributes to endure what He was foreordained to do. Charity. Meekness. Humility. etc. Lead can never measure up to what only steel can endure. Exceeding faith. Not just faith. Exceeding faith. How do we exercise faith? How do we exercise exceeding faith? On account of our good works? Is faith without works dead? Does exceeding faith require exceeding good works? I'm reminded of Enoch and Melchizedek. Abraham and Moses. Isaiah and Nephi. How does one exercise such great faith? What does it require to possess it? What kinds of works result from exceeding faith? I can only think of referring to one source in its entirety: The Law of Sacrifice Lecture Sixth 1 Having treated, in the preceding lectures, of the ideas of the character, perfections and attributes of God, we next proceed to treat of the knowledge which persons must have, that the course of life which they pursue is according to the will of God, in order that they may be enabled to exercise faith in him unto life and salvation. 2 This knowledge supplies an important place in revealed religion; for it was by reason of it that the ancients were enabled to endure as seeing him who is invisible. An actual knowledge to any person that the course of life which he pursues is according to the will of God, is essentially necessary to enable him to have that confidence in God, without which no person can obtain eternal life. It was this that enabled the ancient saints to endure all their afflictions and persecutions, and to take joyfully the spoiling of their goods, knowing, (not believing merely,) that they had a more enduring substance (Hebrews 10:34). 3 Having the assurance that they were pursuing a course which was agreeable to the will of God, they were enabled to take, not only the spoiling of their goods, and the wasting of their substance, joyfully, but also to suffer death in its most horrid forms; knowing, (not merely believing,) that when this earthly house of their tabernacle was dissolved, they had a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5:1). 4 Such was and always will be the situation of the saints of God, that unless they have an actual knowledge that the course that they are pursuing is according to the will of God, they will grow weary in their minds and faint; for such has been and always will be the opposition in the hearts of unbelievers and those that know not God, against the pure and unadulterated religion of heaven, (the only thing which ensures eternal life,) that they will persecute, to the uttermost, all that worship God according to his revelations, receive the truth in the love of it, and submit themselves to be guided and directed by his will, and drive them to such extremities that nothing short of an actual knowledge of their being the favorites of heaven, and of their having embraced that order of things which God has established for the redemption of man, will enable them to exercise that confidence in him necessary for them to overcome the world, and obtain that crown of glory which is laid up for them that fear God. 5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God. 6 For unless a person does know that he is walking according to the will of God, it would be offering an insult to the dignity of the Creator, were he to say that he would be a partaker of his glory when he should be done with the things of this life. But when he has this knowledge, and most assuredly knows that he is doing the will of God, his confidence can be equally strong that he will be a partaker of the glory of God. 7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life. 8 It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they in like manner offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him. 9 It was in offering sacrifices that Abel, the first martyr, obtained knowledge that he was accepted of God. And from the days of righteous Abel to the present time, the knowledge that men have that they are accepted in the sight of God, is obtained by offering sacrifice: and in the last days, before the Lord comes, he is to gather together his saints who have made a covenant with him by sacrifice. Psalms 50:3-5: Our God shall clime, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant unto me by sacrifice. 10 Those, then, who make the sacrifice will have the testimony that their course is pleasing in the sight of God, and those who have this testimony will have faith to lay hold on eternal life, and will be enabled, through faith, to endure unto the end, and receive the crown that is laid up for them that love the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. But those who do not make the sacrifice cannot enjoy this faith, because men are dependent upon this sacrifice in order to obtain this faith; therefore, they cannot lay hold upon eternal life, because the revelations of God do not guarantee unto them the authority so to do; and without this guarantee faith could not exist. 11 All the saints of whom we have account in all the revelations of God which are extant, obtained the knowledge which they had of their acceptance in his sight, through the sacrifice which they offered unto him: and through the knowledge thus obtained, their faith became sufficiently strong to lay hold upon the promise of eternal life, and to endure us seeing him who is invisible; and were enabled, through faith, to combat the powers of darkness, contend against the wiles of the adversary, overcome the world, and obtain the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls. 12 But those who have not made this sacrifice to God, do not know that the course which they pursue is well pleasing in his sight; for whatever may be their belief or their opinion, it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty in their mind; and where doubt and uncertainty is, there faith is not, nor can it be. For doubt and faith do not exist in the same person at the same time. So that persons whose minds are under doubts and fears cannot have unshaken confidence, and where unshaken confidence is not, there faith is weak, and where faith is weak, the persons will not be able to contend against all the opposition, tribulations and afflictions which they will have to encounter in order to be heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ Jesus; and they will grow weary in their minds, and the adversary will have power over them and destroy them. Note. This lecture is so plain, and the facts set forth so self-evident, that it is deemed unnecessary to form a catechism upon it: the student is therefore instructed to commit the whole to memory. Must we be willing to sacrifice everything? Even our own life to exercise exceeding faith? If I am willing to lay down my life in the most horrible manner, will the adversary have any kind of power over me to destroy me? And if no adversary can have any such power, is there anything that I cannot do (that isn't expedient in the Lord)? Back to JST Genesis 14- If we do not have this fullness, what have we been doing for 185 years?

In my studies, some of which include some of the citations included in that askgramps linked above, priesthood is an "association" if you will. Priest-hood. Adam was the first patriarch whose association with heaven and the powers of heaven came because of his ordination to this priesthood. He became a "son" of God. This association was continued through his lineage with Seth all the way down through Noah, each of whom became high priests. To have this kind of priesthood is to enjoy this association with God and the powers of heaven (God, angels, translated beings). Melchizedek had this association. So did Abraham when he desired to claim the rights pertaining to it. Furthermore, This Priest-hood, this association, was not continued. This is also what Joseph Smith tried to do in his time, but as Moses was taken away from the Israelites, so Joseph was also taken out of the midst of the saints and they wandered in the wilderness where we wander still. Alma gave a fantastic discourse on this as well in the land of Ammonihah, ironically to a hard hearted and stiff necked people. Alma 13 is a chapter that deserves a LOT of study. The “manner” in which we must be called, if Alma is correct is in a way which will let people know or understand how to “look forward to His Son for redemption.” How was Christ ordained? There is no record on earth to tell us. The Pharisees demanded to know where He obtained His authority. Remember the scripture? What did He tell them? What did He show them all during His ministry? Called and prepared first? From the foundation of the world? Can you get it anywhere other than from on high? Is this why the power of the priesthood is inseparably connected with the powers of heaven? What have we Saints been doing? Practicing? How was it obtained first--before the foundation of the world? It was because of the foreknowledge of God. And what was God’s foreknowledge based upon? Their “exceeding faith and good works!” Left to choose between good and evil? Even before Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil? How did they have knowledge of good and evil? How did they exercise faith? So are they (we?) being ordained to "the priesthood" for the first time while we're here in mortality? Others reject the Spirit of God and, therefore, do not have this power. These others may claim to have authority, but they do not really receive power from the Spirit of God. What, then, causes someone who has a little authority “as they suppose” (they don’t really have it, you see), to attempt to use that pretense to control and dominate others? What did Alma know that we don't know? What was Joseph Smith continually trying to teach the saints?

Indeed the flood was a baptism of water. When Christ returns and the world is burned, it will be a baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost-a sanctification. The dove is also a symbol, I agree. Lots of symbolism. The only woman I see being symbolized in the Bible is Zion. Christ is the bridegroom, Zion is the bride, the covenant people are the children.

I see by your avatar that you are an LDS convert. A careful and prayerful study of D&C 93 will answer your question concerning the order of things. Jesus Christ's baptism of water and fire and much more in this singular setting is a clear indication that none other than the Father endowed the Savior with a fullness of glory.

Being filled with the Spirit or the Holy Ghost is not the same as receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is the baptism of fire, an ordinance in an of itself.

JayGlad, I know you are being sincere. I hope you know that I am too. I take no offence whatsoever in anything you said, and I hope you took none in mine. I surely believe that the Holy Ghost can change me. The Holy Ghost has changed me. I have experienced that might change of heart. I have sung the song of redeeming love and I feel to sing it even now. Everything I have said, I spoke as a man. A flawed and fallen man who knows his nothingness before the Lord. I also know that I can be perfected in Christ and that with His Spirit, I can judge righteously. Without His Spirit, I am left to myself. To express more fully what I mean, I will simply quote Ammon. I do tend to focus more on my fallen nature than becoming a Son of God. I will take your advice to heart as I continue on my journey to do so. Thanks, brother.

You're welcome, and thank you for understanding. And I agree--with the Spirit, we can judge righteously.

Then I edited my post, because I realized what I said, but it went through after you replied, thus the confusion. Please read what I edited and meant to say:

Are you judging? This is what I mean. I did not think I was putting words in your mouth. I didn't think I was. I am trying to understand your perspective. btw, I edited my post and it went through after your reply. Perhaps it changes how I may have put words in your mouth.

But that's just it. You qualified love and righteous judgment by saying it cannot be separated when done by the Spirit. How often is it done by the Spirit? You are right. I still don't understand. I am imperfect. I am a fool. I am a sinner. I acknowledge that only God can judge righteously. Only God can love perfectly. Jay, if you can judge righteously, I admire you. One day, I hope I can too.

Excellent scriptures, JayGlad. Discernment is key. Without discernment, how can we exercise all that righteous judgment we're supposed to judge? To me, righteous means just. How can we be just? Can we be justified if we are not sanctified? This is more what I'm talking about:

I get that part, TFP. Eve made a judgment call about eating the fruit. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking specifically about judging someone. As Christ said, what judgment we judge, we will likewise be judged. What measure we mete, we will be likewise measured. Do not the greatest commandments apply? Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself? If we are too busy loving them, serving them, ministering to them, is there room for judging them? I suppose you can judge if they stand in need of something, but that's not what I'm talking about, although, if you are meting out a measure, so will God mete out the same to you. If I refuse the beggar, is it because I don't love him? And if I do not love the least of my fellow brothers, do I not love God? So is the Golden Rule about love?

I wrote that hastily. But if you can judge someone is smart, that means you can judge someone to be stupid. And we're back in judging mode.

I'm still not convinced any man can judge righteously. Alma feared judging wrongly so he went to the Lord and got an answer. Now I wonder if any man can love perfectly.

But who can judge righteously? One must be righteous to judge righteously. I will be the first to tell you that I am a sinner and a fool, which is why I would rather not judge. I apologize for making that implication. It doesn't resonate with me. I cannot comprehend how someone who is judging righteously is incapable of loving. In my mind only Jesus Christ can judge righteously and He is capable of perfect love, being filled with charity. As for whether or not judging and loving are exclusive, I don't know. I suppose maybe I did make that judgment. But can one love unconditionally while judging? My wife just said yes. To me this means I can form an opinion about someone and love them anyway. But I contend that if I formed an opinion of them (they stink, they're smart, whatever) I'm not really loving them unconditionally. My head hurts.

There's also a Baptist Minister out there preaching the Book of Mormon: http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/

There's also a Baptist Minister out there preaching the Book of Mormon: http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/

There's also a Baptist Minister out there preaching the Book of Mormon: http://www.centerplace.org/library/bofm/baptistversionofbofm.htm http://www.greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/

Yeah, I was on my cell phone on break at work with limited time. What I was trying to get across in one overarching parallel in just a few words is that any of us can be that woman taken in adultery. Or in other words, who among us is not an idolater? Have you read Gileadi's Twelve diatribes of Modern Israel ? And if any of us, or let me just put myself on the stand, if I am an idolater, a worldly man, am I not expressing infidelity, or rather, unfaithfulness to the Lord? I'm reminded of Isaiah's words: So in one sense, any of us can be adulterers who go whoring after our idols. Incidentally, I'm still puzzled as to why the woman's accusers did not also drag along the man taken in adultery with her? I have more thoughts on this matter, but for another time. There was obviously a demand at Jerusalem for such whoredoms. Anyway, any of us could be the accusers with stones in hand. Any of us could be "supporters" of gay rights. Any of us could become leaders and some of us probably are. The bottom line is that we are all sinners, regardless of how scarlet our sins may be. God cannot look upon any sin with the least degree of allowance. We are all children of Zion. We have put our mother away and sold ourselves, just as the ancient covenant people. But Zion will yet be redeemed. I think our leaders see things we don't. Perhaps without such legislation, the government could strip the church's non profit status. Who knows. Maybe if they don't make concessions in order to continue to function in its mission, there won't be a church as we know it. Certainly they are not perfect and sinners just like the rest of us. I don't agree with the woman taken in adultery, but I am not going to cast stones. I will not so much as judge her. I don't necessarily agree with what our leaders have done, but maybe it's all they can do right now--"they're sincerely seeking and receiving guidance from the Lord," as you put it. If I recall correctly, the Lord wanted King Zedekiah to ally with Babylon, but instead he allied with Egypt, which was the wrong choice. And so, they faced the consequences and became subject to Babylon the hard way anyway. In any case, I've already expressed my own personal opinions and feelings on the subject. So I won't repeat myself. But there are different ways to approach this whole matter. I choose not to judge anyone, but instead just try and love everyone. In the end, I want only love to be returned to me.