skalenfehl

Carborendum, I am making no accusation against our leaders or anyone. I am at a point in my life where nothing matters but the truth, however harsh it may be. It is true that the presiding high priests in Christ's day were authorized to preside and officiate. It is true that Jesus Christ was also consecrating new apostles to take the gospel into the Gentile world. Jesus gave the Pharisees a parable about this. I am merely addressing the OP with my perspective and conjecture. Unlike your point, the OP does not stipulate a world without a living prophet. He only asked what Jesus' earthly ministry might look like today. I wouldn't mind addressing your point in another topic, though, but it wouldn't go far. The world today without living oracles would likely be much like first century Europe.

Naturally, I could be wrong, but I disagree. When Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith, He was a resurrected, glorified being who spoke with power and authority. His voice thundered and his appearance was glorious as in the first vision, Kirtland appearance, etc. What I am talking about is if Jesus was born into mortal ministry today, the general circumstances would be identical. I see no reason for Him to change anything unless it was His purpose to change something. But He only had one purpose. Anyway, He would most certainly be cast out. The only difference between being cast out of any church today (excommunication) is that a person is not crucified or stoned to death. One is not burned at the stake as was Johannes Huss, William Tyndale and others during the Reformation period. A careful study of human nature, history, an ample amount of case studies from the scriptures and also history shows us this would be the likely outcome. A mortal Jesus would, as the OP conjectures, hang out with gang members, drug addicts, homeless people etc. But perhaps His purpose couldn't be accomplished nowadays, because we in modern society, of course, are "civilized" and "advanced" and not barbaric so we don't torture and horribly execute people. (We just empower others like the government and soldiers to do that for us).

During Christ's mortal ministry, there was already an established priesthood and authority, whose line of authority traced back to Moses. Jesus used the same pattern as before. Twelve disciples (apostles) patterned after the twelve sons of Jacob. Seventy (Luke 10:1) elders were also chosen, hearkening back to Moses (Numbers 11:16). At that time, Caiaphas was the presiding high priest. They claimed authority as they sat in Moses seat, yet they taught traditions, although, correct doctrine was plainly recorded in scripture. Before then, the Deuteronomists were what you might call today, a correlation committee. History has a way of repeating itself. There was the written law and then there was the oral (traditional) law. Oral law tended to supersede written law, which Jesus Christ endeavored to correct. But because Jesus was just a hippie (Nazarite) outsider from a little podunk town of Nazareth with no recognizable credentials or "authority" recognized by the presiding high priests, his authority was constantly challenged, and he was not only denounced, but was cast out. He did NOT recognize their baptism (JST, Matthew 9:18-21). If Jesus were born today to minister as he did back then, I believe He would do the exact same thing and experience the very same treatment. His authority would be challenged as he challenged church traditions (commandments of men), while teaching pure doctrine, He would be cast out for "apostasy," "heresy," etc. Very few would recognize Him for who He really is.

The word of wisdom does not exclude principles of a good diet either.

Ultimately, they are they who would have Jesus cast out for His "radical" teachings.

I believe He would do the exact same thing He did before. He would hang out with the poor, the sinners, the downtrodden, while correcting the traditions of the Pharisees and teaching correct doctrines and principles.

If thou wilt be perfect... "Perfect" is something that's been on my mind a lot the last couple of years. I love this scripture: 2 Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Foot note-Perfect: suited, ready, complete Our definition of perfect is different than God's definition of perfect

Indeed! And D&C 76 addresses this. To be sealed up to eternal life is to receive the testimony of Jesus while in the flesh. In the out of print book, Words Of Joseph Smith, we read: Therefore, continuing with D&C 76: The passage by Peter, which Joseph Smith quoted is found in 2 Peter Ch1: Those who lack the Christlike attributes described by Peter forget that they were purged of their old sins when they were baptized by water and also by fire (Holy Ghost). Continuing in D&C 76: But those who do not "receive" this while in the flesh, do not attain to the Celestial Kingdom as we continue reading in D&C 76 who attain the Terrestrial Kingdom or Lower: Joseph Smith tirelessly admonished the early saints (as Peter probably tirelessly did) to make their calling and election sure. Joseph described it in his teachings that this "testimony" of Jesus becomes an anchor to the soul. These are they who inherit the Celestial Kingdom. Yet this is not the end. Continuing James12 quote of D&C 130, I will add: There is no stagnation. The course of the Lord is one eternal round. And so is the course of every "celestial" being. The Celestial Kingdom is not the end.

The people of Zion are of 1. One heart 2. One mind 3. Dwell in righteousness 4. Have NO poor among them They do not suffer anyone to be unequal, for all are equal in temporal things, and thus are made equal by God in heavenly things.

To attain the fulness of the priesthood is to attain His presence as with Melchizedek, Enoch, Moses and others, who as "priests" unto the most high God, by the sealing power, which comes from the calling of His own voice, can and will reign down terror upon a telestial people who fight against Him and His people. This is why Zion will be terrible to the people of the world who will be at war against each other and against the people of Zion. They are people who will not simply walk into Zion untested and unprepared. One does not simply take up residence without being cleansed. One becomes a Zion individual before coming unto Zion. One must have the kind of faith required to sacrifice all things, to lay down this life for a more excellent one.

A Tale of Two Comforters

Most important in each of our lives is to know God's will in each of our lives. Then to do what is God's will in our lives. Cart before the horse.

Indeed. The scriptures are my default standard of truth.

Jesus Christ, though the son of our Father, is also a Father--and our Father. Both are our Fathers. You can liken it to a father and grandfather, though both are fathers. We read in the Book of Mormon about Jesus Christ being our creator. Indeed he organized matter to create the earth and all things therein. Abinadi explained this to King Noah as he expounded the words of the prophet Isaiah. Or as Jesus Christ explained to the brother of Jared face to face.

In the gospel of Mark, chapter 13, Jesus Christ tells his disciples about the destruction that awaits Jerusalem and likens it as well to the terrible events of the latter days. These events are also listed chronologically in the D&C. But if anyone would like to read a graphic historical account of Jerusalem's destruction after Jesus Christ was crucified, read chapter one of The View of the Hebrews. Then you'll get an idea of what we will yet face in our latter days. http://www.mormonismi.net/pdf/voh.pdf

Fear is a primitive emotion and one that tends to govern our early relationship with the Lord. So we obey his commandments to avoid some punishment or consequence. When we were children, we feared disobeying dad because we knew that we would get a whooping. As my relationship with the Lord deepened, my fear became faith and love. My motivation to come unto Christ changed. One's relationship with the Lord evolves into one of pure love, where persuasion rather than ultimatum is used. The Lord commands the wicked to repent. The penitent, however, are submissive. They turn their will over to the Lord and become one with Him, thus being granted all that He has.

Been a while. Faith (and fear)

During Christ's intercessory prayer, he prayed that his disciples would all become one. All who attain Zion are one. We are commanded to become one. That doesn't mean we morph into a singular mass of flesh or matter. It means we become united. One heart and one mind. It therefore follows that all heavenly beings are one. There are many persons, but united. Likewise is the Godhead three persons, but united--one heart one mind. Thus they are one.

Is there a way to preview our posts before submitting? These forums have changed yet again. Please bear with me... While Jesus Christ is both a Father and Son, He also has a Father. Therefore, both Fathers will come to you and make Their abode with you. But because Jesus took upon Himself flesh, He became a Son. Anyway, they are two distinct people. Just like I have a dad and a grandpa and both are fathers. So you see, when Jehovah and Elohim (as we in the church call His Father) visit you, you will see that they are two different people just as Joseph Smith saw in his first vision. They had both also visited Nephi, which we get a glimpse: So when Jesus Christ visited the people at Bountiful, they understood, just as the bro of Jared understood, who they were praying to. They had faith no longer, for they knew nothing doubting.

No. That is a Catholic precept. I am, however, clarifying what Joseph Smith already knew and taught, which we read about in Lectures on Faith. But Abinadi also knew this. In his explanation of Isaiah to King Noah and his priests, Abinadi also expounds on Jesus Christ's role as a Father and a Son. Furthermore, in the book of Ether, when Jesus Christ brings the bro of Jared back into His presence, He explains to the bro of Jared that all who come unto Christ become His sons and daughters. At Bountiful, when Jesus Christ unfolded all the mysteries to the people from the foundation of the world until the end, they understood His role and knew Him as not only their Savior, but also their Father. Jesus Christ commands all who believe on Him to call upon His name:

Let's go to the scriptures where the very first temple dedication prayer was recorded where Joseph Smith prays to the Father in the name of the Son. Joseph is praying to the same person, calling Him by different names and titles: Prayer offered at the dedication of the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, 27 March 1836 (see History of the Church, 2:420–26). According to the Prophet’s written statement, this prayer was given to him by revelation. D&C 109 1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts— 2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland]. 3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment. 4 And now we ask thee, Holy Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of thy bosom, in whose name alone salvation can be administered to the children of men, we ask thee, O Lord, to accept of this house, the workmanship of the hands of us, thy servants, which thou didst command us to build. 5 For thou knowest that we have done this work through great tribulation; and out of our poverty we have given of our substance to build a house to thy name, that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself to his people. 6 And as thou hast said in a revelation, given to us, calling us thy friends, saying—Call your solemn assembly, as I have commanded you; 7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith; 8 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing, and establish a house, even a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of learning, a house of glory, a house of order, a house of God; 9 That your incomings may be in the name of the Lord, that your outgoings may be in the name of the Lord, that all your salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with uplifted hands unto the Most High— 10 And now, Holy Father, we ask thee to assist us, thy people, with thy grace, in calling our solemn assembly, that it may be done to thine honor and to thy divine acceptance; 11 And in a manner that we may be found worthy, in thy sight, to secure a fulfilment of the promises which thou hast made unto us, thy people, in the revelations given unto us; 12 That thy glory may rest down upon thy people, and upon this thy house, which we now dedicate to thee, that it may be sanctified and consecrated to be holy, and that thy holy presence may be continually in this house; 13 And that all people who shall enter upon the threshold of the Lord’s house may feel thy power, and feel constrained to acknowledge that thou hast sanctified it, and that it is thy house, a place of thy holiness. 14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said; 15 And that they may grow up in thee, and receive a fulness of the Holy Ghost, and be organized according to thy laws, and be prepared to obtain every needful thing; 16 And that this house may be a house of prayer, a house of fasting, a house of faith, a house of glory and of God, even thy house; 17 That all the incomings of thy people, into this house, may be in the name of the Lord; 18 That all their outgoings from this house may be in the name of the Lord; 19 And that all their salutations may be in the name of the Lord, with holy hands, uplifted to the Most High; 20 And that no unclean thing shall be permitted to come into thy house to pollute it; 21 And when thy people transgress, any of them, they may speedily repent and return unto thee, and find favor in thy sight, and be restored to the blessings which thou hast ordained to be poured out upon those who shall reverence thee in thy house. 22 And we ask thee, Holy Father, that thy servants may go forth from this house armed with thy power, and that thy name may be upon them, and thy glory be round about them, and thine angels have charge over them; 23 And from this place they may bear exceedingly great and glorious tidings, in truth, unto the ends of the earth, that they may know that this is thy work, and that thou hast put forth thy hand, to fulfil that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of the prophets, concerning the last days. 24 We ask thee, Holy Father, to establish the people that shall worship, and honorably hold a name and standing in this thy house, to all generations and for eternity; 25 That no weapon formed against them shall prosper; that he who diggeth a pit for them shall fall into the same himself; 26 That no combination of wickedness shall have power to rise up and prevail over thy people upon whom thy name shall be put in this house; 27 And if any people shall rise against this people, that thine anger be kindled against them; 28 And if they shall smite this people thou wilt smite them; thou wilt fight for thy people as thou didst in the day of battle, that they may be delivered from the hands of all their enemies. 29 We ask thee, Holy Father, to confound, and astonish, and to bring to shame and confusion, all those who have spread lying reports abroad, over the world, against thy servant or servants, if they will not repent, when the everlasting gospel shall be proclaimed in their ears; 30 And that all their works may be brought to naught, and be swept away by the hail, and by the judgments which thou wilt send upon them in thine anger, that there may be an end to lyings and slanders against thy people. 31 For thou knowest, O Lord, that thy servants have been innocent before thee in bearing record of thy name, for which they have suffered these things. 32 Therefore we plead before thee for a full and complete deliverance from under this yoke; 33 Break it off, O Lord; break it off from the necks of thy servants, by thy power, that we may rise up in the midst of this generation and do thy work. 34 O Jehovah, have mercy upon this people, and as all men sin forgive the transgressions of thy people, and let them be blotted out forever. 35 Let the anointing of thy ministers be sealed upon them with power from on high. 36 Let it be fulfilled upon them, as upon those on the day of Pentecost; let the gift of tongues be poured out upon thy people, even cloven tongues as of fire, and the interpretation thereof. 37 And let thy house be filled, as with a rushing mighty wind, with thy glory. 38 Put upon thy servants the testimony of the covenant, that when they go out and proclaim thy word they may seal up the law, and prepare the hearts of thy saints for all those judgments thou art about to send, in thy wrath, upon the inhabitants of the earth, because of their transgressions, that thy people may not faint in the day of trouble. 39 And whatsoever city thy servants shall enter, and the people of that city receive their testimony, let thy peace and thy salvation be upon that city; that they may gather out of that city the righteous, that they may come forth to Zion, or to her stakes, the places of thine appointment, with songs of everlasting joy; 40 And until this be accomplished, let not thy judgments fall upon that city. 41 And whatsoever city thy servants shall enter, and the people of that city receive not the testimony of thy servants, and thy servants warn them to save themselves from this untoward generation, let it be upon that city according to that which thou hast spoken by the mouths of thy prophets. 42 But deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, and cleanse them from their blood. 43 O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee; 44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours. 45 We know that thou hast spoken by the mouth of thy prophets terrible things concerning the wicked, in the last days—that thou wilt pour out thy judgments, without measure; 46 Therefore, O Lord, deliver thy people from the calamity of the wicked; enable thy servants to seal up the law, and bind up the testimony, that they may be prepared against the day of burning. 47 We ask thee, Holy Father, to remember those who have been driven by the inhabitants of Jackson county, Missouri, from the lands of their inheritance, and break off, O Lord, this yoke of affliction that has been put upon them. 48 Thou knowest, O Lord, that they have been greatly oppressed and afflicted by wicked men; and our hearts flow out with sorrow because of their grievous burdens. 49 O Lord, how long wilt thou suffer this people to bear this affliction, and the cries of their innocent ones to ascend up in thine ears, and their blood come up in testimony before thee, and not make a display of thy testimony in their behalf? 50 Have mercy, O Lord, upon the wicked mob, who have driven thy people, that they may cease to spoil, that they may repent of their sins if repentance is to be found; 51 But if they will not, make bare thine arm, O Lord, and redeem that which thou didst appoint a Zion unto thy people. 52 And if it cannot be otherwise, that the cause of thy people may not fail before thee may thine anger be kindled, and thine indignation fall upon them, that they may be wasted away, both root and branch, from under heaven; 53 But inasmuch as they will repent, thou art gracious and merciful, and wilt turn away thy wrath when thou lookest upon the face of thine Anointed. 54 Have mercy, O Lord, upon all the nations of the earth; have mercy upon the rulers of our land; may those principles, which were so honorably and nobly defended, namely, the Constitution of our land, by our fathers, be established forever. 55 Remember the kings, the princes, the nobles, and the great ones of the earth, and all people, and the churches, all the poor, the needy, and afflicted ones of the earth; 56 That their hearts may be softened when thy servants shall go out from thy house, O Jehovah, to bear testimony of thy name; that their prejudices may give way before the truth, and thy people may obtain favor in the sight of all; 57 That all the ends of the earth may know that we, thy servants, have heard thy voice, and that thou hast sent us; 58 That from among all these, thy servants, the sons of Jacob, may gather out the righteous to build a holy city to thy name, as thou hast commanded them. 59 We ask thee to appoint unto Zion other stakes besides this one which thou hast appointed, that the gathering of thy people may roll on in great power and majesty, that thy work may be cut short in righteousness. 60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. 61 But thou knowest that thou hast a great love for the children of Jacob, who have been scattered upon the mountains for a long time, in a cloudy and dark day. 62 We therefore ask thee to have mercy upon the children of Jacob, that Jerusalem, from this hour, may begin to be redeemed; 63 And the yoke of bondage may begin to be broken off from the house of David; 64 And the children of Judah may begin to return to the lands which thou didst give to Abraham, their father. 65 And cause that the remnants of Jacob, who have been cursed and smitten because of their transgression, be converted from their wild and savage condition to the fulness of the everlasting gospel; 66 That they may lay down their weapons of bloodshed, and cease their rebellions. 67 And may all the scattered remnants of Israel, who have been driven to the ends of the earth, come to a knowledge of the truth, believe in the Messiah, and be redeemed from oppression, and rejoice before thee. 68 O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun., and all his afflictions and persecutions—how he has covenanted with Jehovah, and vowed to thee, O Mighty God of Jacob—and the commandments which thou hast given unto him, and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will. 69 Have mercy, O Lord, upon his wife and children, that they may be exalted in thy presence, and preserved by thy fostering hand. 70 Have mercy upon all their immediate connections, that their prejudices may be broken up and swept away as with a flood; that they may be converted and redeemed with Israel, and know that thou art God. 71 Remember, O Lord, the presidents, even all the presidents of thy church, that thy right hand may exalt them, with all their families, and their immediate connections, that their names may be perpetuated and had in everlasting remembrance from generation to generation. 72 Remember all thy church, O Lord, with all their families, and all their immediate connections, with all their sick and afflicted ones, with all the poor and meek of the earth; that the kingdom, which thou hast set up without hands, may become a great mountain and fill the whole earth; 73 That thy church may come forth out of the wilderness of darkness, and shine forth fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners; 74 And be adorned as a bride for that day when thou shalt unveil the heavens, and cause the mountains to flow down at thy presence, and the valleys to be exalted, the rough places made smooth; that thy glory may fill the earth; 75 That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord; 76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings. 77 O Lord God Almighty, hear us in these our petitions, and answer us from heaven, thy holy habitation, where thou sittest enthroned, with glory, honor, power, majesty, might, dominion, truth, justice, judgment, mercy, and an infinity of fulness, from everlasting to everlasting. 78 O hear, O hear, O hear us, O Lord! And answer these petitions, and accept the dedication of this house unto thee, the work of our hands, which we have built unto thy name; 79 And also this church, to put upon it thy name. And help us by the power of thy Spirit, that we may mingle our voices with those bright, shining seraphs around thy throne, with acclamations of praise, singing Hosanna to God and the Lamb! 80 And let these, thine anointed ones, be clothed with salvation, and thy saints shout aloud for joy. Amen, and Amen.

People tend to confuse pleasure with happiness. In the second book of Nephi, we are told that they lived after the "manner of happiness." There is a difference between the joy that comes from coming unto Christ and the pleasures of the world, including materialism. But those who wander from pleasure to pleasure are never able to fill the void in their lives that only Jesus Christ can fill. And it is why wickedness is never happiness. Anything short of the peace that comes from obedience to God because of our love for Him, is not joy at all. It is misery. It is a lie. And Satan is the father of all lies.

There are numerous examples of conflicts and wars, and the intrigue and combinations associated with the wars. For an exercise, differentiate the wars between the Nephites and Lamanites along with the motives of the Lamanites and the wars between the Nephites and Nephite dissenters and their motives. You will begin to see a pattern, which parallels our own today. Compare the Nephite nation with the Gentile nation (USA). Who sought power? Who had power? Who combined in secret to overthrow liberty and chief judges? Who often sat in the seats of judges and chief judges? Some names to consider: 1. Kishkumen 2. Gadianton 3. Seezoram 4. Seantum 5. Amalickiah 6. Giddianhi Study the various types of intrigue and conspiracies to obtain control of the people. You will then begin to understand why so many of the battles, wars, epistles, etc were preserved for us. You begin to get into the minds of those who seek power, those who seek wealth and how those who seek power offer wealth to those who seek wealth in order to obtain control. The pattern is seen with the Jaredites as well as throughout the history of the Nephites and it is glaringly obvious in US history and especially current events.

This: