skalenfehl

That reminds me...after Christ's death, more and more Jews converted to Him and became outcasts from the church. I want to share something with you in the book of Acts: The story continues: Here we have, in effect, Zion, a people abiding a Terrestrial Law, apart from Jerusalem having "all things common." (By the way, many people use the term "all things in common, which is incorrect in this context). They had "all things common" among them as did peoples in the Book of Mormon. But a man and his wife, who after having received the Holy Ghost being baptized with fire, chose to lie about their offerings. And for it they gave up the ghost and died as to the flesh as we read above in ch 5. Now I will give you something to ponder. If we are given the Holy Ghost when we are baptized AND we covenant to obey the law of consecration, why is the same law or covenant ineffectual to the countless Mormons who become baptized, endowed and then do not keep their covenants (including consecration) and/or fall away into inactivity? What is the difference if we have the "fullness" today compared with Ananias and Sapphira two thousand years ago? Why are we not giving up the ghost left and right? I won't answer it for you, but will leave it to you to work it out in your life if you so choose.

Thank you for your kind words. It has proven fruitful to do what the Lord requires the way the Lord requires it. I do confess that I used to justify myself often for doing or not doing things the way you mention. It is in our nature to rationalize and improvise.

Yes. (But note, that the scriptures say "surplus property" and not all property. But anyway, my wife and and I have moved in with her elderly parents and we take care of them and I pay them rent in order to help them and it helps us as well. We all take care of each other. My father in law who is in his 80s has already torn a bicep carrying a box into the house and if I don't watch him closely, he will climb up on the roof to work on the swamp cooler or up a fruit tree to prune it. He's a stubborn old coot, but a gentle human being who maybe just wants some attention. Ever since his hometeacher died a couple years ago, nobody comes to check up on him. So I do. My sons, who my wife and I adopted have long since moved out of the house I used to live in, which I had built myself, having been a general contractor. It was extremely challenging to raise them right, having been through the system and now in and out of jail and prison. I have done my best by them and still try, but I'm poor now so I can't help them like I once could. I used to own several businesses, which pulled in tens of thousands/month. I was buying toys and living the life. The Lord then taught me that I was exalting myself and I had forgotten something that he taught me about a promise I had forgotten when I was young. The long story short, I abased myself. I gave and sold everything, helped others, the church and now I simply pay what is due annually accordingly. I have come to loathe money, loathe status, in a nutshell, I loathe worldliness. When I'm not at my now day job (I no longer have my businesses except one, which makes very little to nothing), I am serving others, reading/studying the scriptures or working on something personal for the Lord. That sums up my life today. I have no regrets and along the way over the last ten years, the Lord has let me know that He is with me. I have also made an intensive study of Joseph Smith Lectures on Faith and have found comfort in the following verse: and its associated question: Once I made the decision some time ago to take the scriptures seriously (after all the Lord gave the Book of Mormon to us by covenant), I have experienced wonderful things, including a promise the Lord made to me personally by covenant. But I also know it's only the beginning. It's why I'm so passionate about sticking to the scriptures and taking the Lord's words at face value and trying to live my life according to what He has declared as we read in the scripture (His laws, commandments, teachings, etc) when I post comments online. They are the "standard" works for a reason. I probably sound like some fringe crazy guy to most members, perhaps even radical, but I don't mind. Truth is all that matters to me as does doing what the Lord requires the way the Lord requires it, not more, not less. I have learned that improvising is not fruitful when it comes to obeying the Lord with exactness. But I am still learning.

I agree and it is how I try to live my life currently. Looking back at my post, I see that I shouldn't have incorporated the term "consecrate" when the Lord did not use the term in D&C 119 (other than what we read in the introduction). I conflated consecration with the law of tithing as outlined in the section and I apologize for that.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I take the Lord's words at face value. I believe Him. If he says to offer up something in a prescribed manner, I do it as He requires. If others deem it irresponsible, I respect their opinions, however, obeying God precisely is how I choose to live my life to my best ability. I disagree that it is irresponsible. It has yielded fruit and that is what matters to me in my life. Fast offering is another matter and is not included in the Lord's "standing law forever" as outlined in D&C 119. And as the OP quoted: I just happen to base my decision on what the Lord has explicitly declared in revelation and also based on scriptural precedents such as those of Abraham and Joseph Smith personally. The reason I said you were not helpful is because the OP was asking for help.

What I have offered conforms to the Lord's requirements as outlined in scripture as I understand it and so far you are not sure you agree and judge me irresponsible, but you have offered nothing nor have been helpful.

The simplest solution I found is to liquidate all surplus property and pay it to the church as tithing. Thereafter is a matter of doing as outlined by the Lord in D&C 119. To my knowledge, however, the church doesn't normally receive surplus property such as farm tools, livestock, electronics, etc.

D&C 119:4 is the fulcrum of the subject, but often ignored are the preceding verses. Then the subsequent verse: The Lord intended to redeem His people. A Zion people is required. Once a member consecrated his surplus property, this was only the beginning of the tithing of God's Zion people. We don't do that anymore. And we don't even understand "interest annually" either. "A standing law unto them forever." The term forever is pretty clear to me. We covenant to obey the law of consecration in the temple, but we are not provided means to do so. In order to be a redeemed people, we must be a Zion people. This requires us to have NO poor among us. If we cannot make ourselves equal in temporal things, the Lord will not make us equal in heavenly things and so we must learn to care for the poor and that is what the tithing of the Lord's people is intended to do. Joseph Smith understood the purpose of tithing as did Abraham of old: Abraham gave his surplus property as the beginning of his tithe, just as we read is God's standing law forever in D&C 119. And because Abraham did what God required (no more, no less, but precisely), God blessed Abraham with riches, honor, etc, which was God's covenant to him. When we learn to obey God the way God prescribes, He blesses us. But not if we improvise. It doesn't work that way. Cain thought he could do it with his offering, but God refused it because it was not the way God prescribed. It isn't about receiving gross blessings or net blessings. It's about elevating the poor by consecrating our property and making ourselves equal in temporal things so that God can make us equal in heavenly things. Some interesting quotes:

A buddy of mine related to me about the rebuilding of the Ogden temple, which his friend was part of the process. The concrete walls (and steel) are so thick, now, they're designed to withstand nuclear blasts. I'm not sure how true that is, but taking the construction materials and methods alone (of which I was witness to in Brigham City's temple), I'm not too surprised. The amount of concrete and steel that goes into the building alone may well exceed the costs of all the finery that goes into beautifying it. But if Romans could destroy Jerusalem's temple with not one stone standing upon another, there is no doubt in my mind that the Lord, if He wills, can do the same with any of the temples the church could design and build, or at least allow it to happen. After all, He did declare the following to the saints: But I don't think people should be worried about how much good the "church" does for the poor. People should be worried whether or not each of "them" is doing anything for the poor. Just my opinion anyway, but I am just a foolish man.

According to Matthew, Jesus said not to turn away the borrower, but according to Luke, the exhortation has a stronger meaning:

To the OP, I wrestled with this for a long time in my life. It wasn't until I began to read the scriptures and what Jesus Christ, Himself, taught, lived, and taught us to live. It is summarized in His sermon on the mount, but more pointedly simplified as the Golden Rule: We are all, by default, evil, being in our mortal, fallen state, carnal and selfish in nature. Jesus Christ explicitly taught us what it means to love and He exemplified it. He is love personified. No greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his fellow man. And if we can truly love so much so as to give that ultimate sacrifice, why do we rationalize withholding our substance to anyone who asks of us. Man tends to exact a price for his goods. Joseph Smith once said that we "overexact much." We refuse the beggar and justify ourselves for doing so. We covet our own possessions and have proven that we will not make ourselves equal in temporal things (notwithstanding we have covenanted to live the law of consecration). Christians/Mormons either do not understand the scriptures/Jesus' own words or they simply do not believe Him. To be compassionate, simply put, is to put another before one's self. It is to condescend to lift another just as Jesus condescended to lift us all.

Mosiah 26:20 Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life; and thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name, and shalt gather together my sheep...

Scroll back up and read my quoting Helaman chapter 10. Who is the authority speaking and who are the witnesses?

That is from the third lecture. Proceeding to the sixth lecture, the law of sacrifice, we read: Indeed knowing is not equal to believing. The brother of Jared had such knowledge, not merely believing or supposing. The brother of Jared received the "testimony of Jesus" while in the flesh. As for the rest of humanity:

Indeed it takes time to recognize the voice of the Lord and to distinguish it from any other voice, one's own included. Imagine the horror Nephi felt when the voice of the Spirit constrained him to slay Laban? By this time, however, Nephi had a relationship with the Lord to know without a doubt which voice to hearken to. When you have made your calling and election sure, you will know it. You will have been willing to be thoroughly proved to serve Him at all hazards, not even withholding your own life. You will have learned to trust the Lord intimately with your life.

A more detailed example of being sealed up:

etc...

We read in the Lectures on Faith that the Holy Ghost is the mind of God. When He speaks His mind to you as He did with Enos and many others, it is the voice of the Lord.

The holy spirit/holy ghost is not the same as the holy spirit of promise. The holy spirit of promise is another term for being sealed up to eternal life or making one's calling and election sure. How does one know when he/she has been sealed up to eternal life? They Lord makes it known to you by His own voice. This is covenental. The Lord personally covenants with you that you have part and place with Him in His kingdom. In summary, to receive the "other comforter" is to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.

Sorry about the quotes. This forum really has issues. Or I really have issues with the way we can post (and can't even review our posts to prevent embarrassing formatting). I can't even figure out how to delete my poorly submitted posts.

Jehovah goes on to call Moses His son. He has also called others His son(s):

I believe the most problematic was secret combinations, which we are warned about in Ether 8. It proved to be the downfall of the Nephites and the dwindling in unbelief of the Lamanites. "Gadiantons" are alive and well in the US and in Utah, where I live.

I'm old enough to remember where that expression originated.

Did I mention Stockholm Syndrome? Anyway, the arguments are all silly. People arguing in favor of their version of worldliness. I mean, look at The Little Mermaid. Always envying, coveting and wanting to be "part of that world." Never mind. I'm outta here.