lostnfound

Digital, Great post by the way! I love that you ask these questions. I think it was Timonthy who needed more evidence of Jesus and he showed him his hands so that he could know for sure. I can't answer your question from a lds perspective but I can answer it from a non lds. I see too much evidence to not support BOM and too much evidence to ignore that does support the bible. But your question intrigues me. because if there was some time machine. we would have to do away with it altogether. my family and I talk about this that if there was ever crediable evidences that supported Jesus did not ressurect from the dead we would be forced to abandon our faith. I can remember a time in my life when I was faced with something that I almost did away with God altogether and became a athesist. The thing was the outcome to events did not go my way and so I thought because i had served him that they should be going my way. God did a 180 on my attitude really quick. I can also remember pleading for the life of a dying brother..and it shook my faith and grounded me..and being forced to almost do cpr on my father and calling 911...shook my faith and grounded me...dealing with the death of my father at a young age...shook my faith and grounded me. Nothing and I mean nothing at this time could convince there is no God.

great post by the way..and that really cleared alot of it up for me. Thank you. I love it when someone actually gives a clear answer.

oops sorry I thought those were quotes..let me read it.:)

just for arguement sake lets ask this question what about archelogical evidence? The smithosian will not recognize it as a historically accurate book Why?? but they will with the bible? Past manuscripts..do you realize that we have on file more original manuscripts of the bible then we do with any other book?? Nothing in it has ever been misproven arhcelogically. He closed his books with if anybody adds to this book, I wil add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anybody takes away from it I will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" Would God not have the power to seal His word? My God does and has proven to. If you have to think then what a horriable God to not give all those people before Josepth Smith the other "correct" book then. What about those people?

are you saying joseph smith did not have multiple wives???

I agree with you about Luke except one thing. He was in a resurrected body. He had bones and flesh and looked like his earthly body except he possessed other qualities that could go through grave clothes and tomb and vanish before them in their site as the previous verses state..more like a spirit. Not only him as an example but the scriptures also state when we go to heaven we will recognize those in heaven our loved ones..so they to would have resurrected bodies. I can not find one scripture verse that states that Jesus had a earthly body pre existence in this earth..but we do know that he is God and created all thing and nothing came into existence without him creating it. I know if you created everything then you are not created..unless you add the teaching "on this planet"..I can't find one evidence in the bible that supports multiple Gods to support the idea that Jesus was created. But the bible does support jesus supernaturally coming into Mary. Are you saying that Mary had sex with God? or are you saying that God and some Goddess had sex and concieved Jesus and then supernaturally came into mary? that was my question a while back but I don't think anybody answered it very clearly.

you are correct..what is more correct to say and how i should have worded it in the first place was the bible was inspired by God and book of mormon was founded by One man who was to align it's teaching with the word of God the most historically correct book on the face of the earth

Yes, skip church until you God gives you guidance. Do not join a church if you believe it is wrong.

Nick, I can almost feel your pain without even knowing you. systemic theology. Hm I wonder if I have ever read your books. I have a few on the subject. I think you are absoutly right in regards to feeling close to the Lds culture. I have met some pretty wonderful mormons in my life. They sometimes even act more christian then the christians I know. :) I feel sad that you would throw away Truth though to join a culture of people. People will let you down and you will not find a perfect church. I agree and you would probably agree with me in that there are tons of watered down christian churches out there and some pretty fake congregation out there as well.??:) at least this has been my observation of the churches I been able to teach, and attend at across the nation. However, Nick your first responsibility is the Gospel and not Churches or buildings. I would encourage you to ask God to put you in a grounded, loving community of believers and if you don't have one near you then grab a couple of people that you do know are grounded and start a bible study...start there. May I ask you if you are spending time in Gods word? Sometims I find that people that start to go away from God including myself are not even spending time in God's word anymore. So how much time are you spending in Gods word? That seems to be where the enemy attacks us most when we are not grounded in truth. and just because you have taught systemic theology does Not mean that you can not be taught! I can read a passage of scripture 50 times and get something else out of it each time. Why? It is a living book. Are you still allowing God to teach you? Just a couple of suggestions for you. I pray you have a peace of mind.

in rare cases where we might have common erv in our dna does not support transitional forms that are desperiately needed to support evolution and not to mention probiblity, 2 law of thermodynamics and tons of flaws in the science of evolution. There are just as many creation scientist out their that can make scientific claims to support the opposite. Did you know that a young earth idea is growing not just in creation scientists circles but in non as well? p.s. you will see however evolution among species in that species but you will not see one species evolving into another and the very few examples they give to try to make up for their lack of fossil records are very very disputable examples.

okay another offshoot question. I thought joseph smith did have mutliple wives..and if you ever become a God multiple wives only help you populate the planet.soooo then wouldn't that make flds more like the josepth smiths teachings?? what say you guys..

Traveler..:) john 1 verse 14 does say made in kjv but in Nkjv it says became..but here is another thing to consider..he took on the likeness of humanity he became one of us supernaturally. Since Jesus created all things, He could not have been one of the "created things." Paul then adds, so there can be no mistake, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together"

I could sit here all day and give you list after list of arguments for creation..I won't however give you reason to follow lds doctrine. but if you are truely asking these questions..then I highly suggest answersingenesis.org KenHam is the author and creator of this site and can give you some really good information out their for creation including audio media of science in the bible and arguments creationist sometimes use but sometimes fall through in arguments etc.. After we go from here...the next place I would turn to asking is "Can the bible be trusted alone in its full athority?"

We will not derail this thread with this because you want to stay on topic. :) I'm not sure who in your life has given you this argument and if they were someone that could intellectually give it to you..but digital..here is a little background knowledge on me. I am the grown daughter of a well know doctor in his area..a former athesist and all my life i have heard the arguements for evolution and then that same athesist gave his life to christ and then still did not give up evolution theory and then after careful study saw that their was more evidence for creation then evolution and speaks all over the country on this matter. I have seen the extreme ends to this argument and I concur there is more evidence for creation then evolution. But we will stay on topic here okay. maybe start a new thread just on this topic:)

Without going into how to find True faith..Can I purpose to you a good place to start off in objective evidence in a God is creation. Most reglions will not argue this. I think of Romans 2.."His invisable attributes and divine nature have been clearly seen, through what has been made, so they are without excuse." That is so true and spoken by someone who studied biology, the more complex you see creation the more you see evidence of God in it. Food for thought.

:) From one rare breed to another..:):) I think I just wanted to know without a shadow of a doubt that my faith was real..especially if I was going to teach others..and I think your right the objective people probably were atheist or agnostic. The two books I suggested one started off as an atheist and wrote the book because he was trying to disprove christianity. That is why I suggested it. It is a interesting angle to read.

I'm just thrilled that you ask these questions. You my friend are a rare find today! And I have spent alot of time all over the US and different parts of the world finding people that would like to have a concrete reason to believe what they do. Many are just content in the subjective catagory.

First I am not lds..but your questions are answered in detail in two really good books.. First one is "The evidence demands a verdict" Josh mcdowell and the other is "The case for christ" lee strobel.. To someone is seriously seeking and asking these tough questions. Get those books. Your line of questioning is somewhat similiar to mine to lds members and others..in that many follow after their reglion with such ferver and for a subjective reasons.."well I prayed about it and it is true" (subjective, because no voice came down from heaven to say it was true), or "I looked into it and it felt right to me" (subjective again)..or i have heard this also "It sounds true to me and nobody can convince me otherwise" Me personally subjective reasoning to follow after christ would not be enough.. I had to know on something concrete that could be verfied..Historical evidence for Jesus, the historical accuracy of the bible, The historical accuracy of the prophecies of the bible that are still coming true! After all that..my personal up close and personal account of a changed life because of Christ..and seeing changed lives of others because of christ... I happy you posted this..and I am glad to see that you are seeking. The bible say's seek me and you will find me"

Can you talk about why you are leaving? if you can't post it are you able to send it privately? I have tons of questions for you..

can you elaborate as to what scriptures support this idea that it can't be talked about?

okay to those that have read through the book of mormon more than once..how many times have you read the holy bible?

Okay I am going to try to ask this question without getting tons and tons of attack posts but that may not be possiable. :) Temple ceramonies facinate me. Tons of ex mormons have written plenty on some of the things that go on. I don't even know if any current temple lds members can comment on this..so if you can't just politely say nope we can't talk about it and this is why we can't talk about it...:) Why temple undergarments? Is it true that you are expected to wear it and it brings protection? Why temple oaths of death? Is this true? And how did you feel the first time you said them? What about secret handshakes similiar to what the freemasonaries use? True/false.. These may not be topics you can discuss I understand..but if you can. I would love to understand truth from fiction..

are you lds or some other faith background? :)

Correct! Sons of God used in Old Testamont is always referencing angels...and if you read job and hear the tone in God's words used..who are we to think we would ever be apart of creation? ....man..i shutter to think how small job must have felt at that moment.

many will choose the path to destruction because they do not understand.