Justice

Sure... We know Mormon abridged the Book of Lehi... it was the lost 116 pages, and called specifically by Joseph Smith (and the heading to D&C 10) the Book of Lehi. We know Mormon abridged from King Benjamin to 4th Nephi because we have it today. The gray area is did he abridge Nephi to King Benjamin, or did he just use the Small Plates... WoM: 3: ...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin... The emphatic answer is YES! He made an abridgement of Nephi to King Benjamin, meaning... He abridged from Lehi to 4th Nephi... ..leaving NO GAP in his abridgement of the Large Plates. So, as I said before, there are 1 of 2 possibilities: Mormon included BOTH his abridgement of the Large Plates AND the Small Plates, and the lost 116 pages contained from Lehi to King Benjamin (which is the prevailing opinion) OR he pulled his abridgement of the time period covered by the Small Plates and inserted the Small Plates in their place. What does the evidence suggest? First and foremost, if he included his abridgement of the Large Plates of this time period, why even write the Words of Mormon to fill a gap that didn't exist? The wording of Words of Mormon suggests a "choice," or "either or," not that he "included the Small Plates WITH his abridgement." D&C 10 suggests Joseph Smith "retained" a portion of something he already translated, meaning (imo) he retained the portion of the Plates of Mormon (untranslated) that he had previously translated from (Book of Lehi). Nephi calls his plates that he wrote on the Plates of Nephi, and Jacob calls his plates that he wrote on in the Small Plates (even though Nephi made them) the Plates of Jacob. So, Nephi did not write in the Book of Lehi, he wrote in the Book of Nephi on the Large Plates, meaning the Book of Lehi did not extend to King Benjamin. The wording is all consistent, it just takes a prayerful study of WoM and D&C 10.

I actually have the first one... I need to find it. What do you think about "bridging the gap" that didn't exist in his original abridgement, that actually was from Lehi to 4th Nephi? Remember, the gap wasn't created when the 116 pages were lost, because Mormon wrote the words that filled the gap. Since there was no gap in his full abridgement, the gap didn't exist until he insterted the small plates, meaning he had to remove something to create the gap. The gap was from Amaleki (end of the small plates) to King Benjamin, exactly what was covered by Words of Mormon.

Now all I have to do is read D&C 10 slowly and carefully... and prayerfully, and see what it's really saying. I'm also going to do the same with the portions of Joseph Smith's journal you posted. Thank you.

This is so clear to me now. The only reason a gap existed is because Mormon removed. or "chose" the Small Plates over his own abridgement. There was no gap in Mormon's adbridgement because he tells us he abridged from Nephi (even Lehi) down to King Benjamin. Had the 116 pages not been lost (which was the Book of Lehi -- see heading to D&C 10) we would have the exact same Book of Mormon. There was no chance to error and include the abridgement of the Large Plates from Lehi to King Benjamin because Mormon pulled it and inserted the Small Plates in their place. Now, I want you to point out any flaws in this logic.

OK, here's the thing... I hope you go slow so you can follow this and be the first to tell me I'm not crazy... If, as is stated in the articles you have posted, that Mormon wrote The Words of Mormon to bridge the "gap" between the Large Plates and Small Plates, what could it mean? The Plates of Mormon did not gap. Plain and simple, Mormon abridged from Nephi down to King Benjamin: Words of Mormon 3: ...after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin... We know his abridgement included King Benjamin and through to the end of their history (because we have it), BUT it also included an abridgement from Nephi down to Benjamin (as he says)... AND we KNOW it also included Lehi, but he did not mention Lehi in his verse!! CLEARLY, he is saying "I already made an abridgement from Nephi to King Benjamin" BECAUSE he is speaking about ONLY that portion of his abridgement that deals with the same time period as the Small Plates. But, there was no gap in Mormon's original abridgement of the Large Plates. So, what is this gap that Mormon filled with the Words of Mormon? Why did he even need to write Words of Mormon if he included the Small Plates AND his abridgement of the Large Plates from Nephi to King Benjamin, which had no gap? He removed his abridgement from Nephi until King Benjamin... thus creating a gap that he needed to fill with some more words, or the Word of Mormon... BECAUSE the Small Plates did not sufficiently bridge the 2 (from Amaleki and King Mosiah I to King Benjamin)!! I have felt that Mormon was saying he removed his portion of the abridgement for this time period and replaced it with the Small Plates just by the wording he uses, but have not "seen" the evidence until now. This gap HAD TO BE the removal of a portion of his abridgement! Otherwise, there was no gap, and it is even corroborated by Mormon himself! He DID remove that portion that is covered by the Small Plates!

I still have not straightened this out in my mind. I know that Mormon buried the Brass Paltes and the Large Plates of Nephi (and many other records) before he gave his abridgement, the Small Plates, and the Plates of Ether to Moroni. I'm not certain he buried them in Cumorah, or, I'm not certain if the hill he buried them in (if it was called Cumorah) was the same hill as the one Moroni buried his records in. To me, it doesn't matter either way, the plates are hidden and we can't or won't get them until we're ready for them. I'll ponder on this a bit more. Perhaps it was the same hill.

Yes, for sure. I was only stating it that was to draw a distinction between the Small Plates and all the other plates, most of which constitute the Large Plates of Nephi. We agree.

OK, now here's the great mystery as to how the Lord provided for the lost pages. Nephi wrote 2 accounts: the Large Plates and the Small Plates. On the Large Plates there was a Book of Lehi. Either it was Lehi's own personal writings (which I doubt because Nephi made the plates), or Nephi compiled (or abridged) his father's writings and scribed them on the plates as a book. the Book of Lehi (which is what I believe). At that point (in either case) there would be no need for Nephi to repeat anything contained in his father's writings in his own books (Book of Nephi) on the Large Plates. If Lehi's writings were lost, they were lost. The Large Plates were passed to the man Nephi annointed king, and they stayed with the kings for the remainder of their duration, and contain a much more detailed record of the affairs of the government and wars. The Lord had Nephi make a second set of plates, and they were the Small Plates. Nephi passed these to his brother Jacob (Jacob 1), and told him to write of the major spiritual teachings and revelations among the people. The impression is that it was a much smaller record. Since Lehi did not have a book on the Small Plates, or since Nephi did not compile his father's records on the Small Plates, he began his book (Book of Nephi) with a record of his father (leaving Jerusalem, vision of tree of life, etc.). The Small Plates were given to the owner of the Large Plates by Amaleki, which was King Benjamin. Now, when Mormon found the Small Plates (after he finished his abridgement of the Large Plates) he preferred them, or chose them, over his abridgement of the Large Plates, so he pulled his abridgement of the same time period that the Small Plates covered, meaning from Nephi up to King Benjamin. Then he inserted a brief link between the 2 called Words of Mormon, linking the end of the Small Plates to the "remainder" of his record which he took from the Large Plates. Since there was no Book of Lehi in the Small Plates, Mormon did not pull the Book of Lehi from his abridgement, and it went on to become the lost pages. But, Nephi touched on the highlights of his father's writings in his own book in the Small Plates, thus preserving those things the Lord wanted us to have today... when the Book of Lehi was lost. So, it's not that there were 2 complete records from Lehi to King Benjamin, and they were preserved when one was lost, it's that there was an abridgement by Mormon, and there was duplication of some events by Nephi. Mormon's abridgement of Nephi's complilation of Lehi's writings in the plates of Mormon was lost, but was preserved when Mormon was moved to replace his abridgement from Nephi to King Benjamin with the Small Plates. I'm still studying those journal entires you posted, and it might take me a while to go through them. My mind is very analytical, and I need to let it sink in with other things before I can understand them. Now, read those 4 verses again, or in fact, all of Section 10, and see if that's not what it's saying. You may also need to read Words of Mormon. In the mean time, I will be studying these journal entries.

OK, it's time to open your mind for just a few minutes. I'd like to elaborate on those 4 verses and show you where I think the focus should be. I'm in D&C 10 again: 38 And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi; Reminder, what Joseph Smith took his account from was the Plates of Mormon. So, in fact, there were 2 other places that this same time period was covered. One place Joseph Smith had in his possession (Small Plates), the other he did not (Large Plates). 39 Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. Again, this reference in the Plates of Mormon was written by Mormon at a time which he had not even discovered the Small Plates yet. So, this reference is speaking about the Large Plates. 40 And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account— Now, the Lord is talking about the Small Plates, because Nephi, Jacob, Enos, etc., all kept the spiritual record on the Small Plates, AND it was the only "Plates of Nephi" that Joseph Smith had in possession. 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; This is a most curious verse. He is telling Joseph Smith to translate the Small Plates of Nephi (and this is why I thought he translated the Small Plates immediately, right after the gift was restored--but I admit it could be a general statement, not associated to a certain order of translation). He says "until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained." Does that not sound like he retained some of his translation? 42 And behold, you shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. And here, as far as what will replace what is lost, he says it will be published as the record of Nephi, meaning it does NOT go all the way down to Benjamin. So, I'm struggling with making D&C 10 match up with the portions of Joseph Smith's journal you posted. My first take on it is his journal is not definitive as to what was translated immediately after he regained the ability. But, I'm still looking.

Just from memory, it discusses it in early Mosiah, mid-Alma, 3rd Nephi 17-19, and in Moroni. That's a broad range. Interesting, though... I never really gave it much thought about that the Small Plates may have been translated last. I've just always assumed they were translated right after the 116 pages were lost. I'm curious and anxious to hear more.

Hint, the names of the different books were called after their author. Jacob 3: 14 These plates are called the plates of Jacob, and they were made by the hand of Nephi. And I make an end of speaking these words. I know the theory presented by you, from Skousen, suggests the same thing, and uses it as evidence that "The Book of Lehi" went from Lehi up to King Benjamin. But, I use it as evidence that the Book of Lehi was named the Book of Lehi, and Nephi began his record in the Large Plates after his father and named the book in his name, Nephi. 1 Nephi 9: 2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, [small Plates] behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; [Large Plates] for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. The Book of Lehi, which was the 116 lost pages, was the abridgement Mormon made of Lehi's records. Keep this in perspective: The Small Plates of Nephi, the way they currently stand in our Book of Mormon, cover 143 pages, front and back, with footnotes, or 74 pieces of paper. The unknown here is the fact that Mormon abridged the Large Plates. We don't know how much he condensed the writing that were on the Large Plates. But, judging by the length of Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and other books he abridged, it seems the abridgement of Lehi and Nephi both would not fit on 116 pages. In any case, when you consume all this, I'll describe where the Lord's masterful preparation came in preserving the things He wanted to be delivered, if Mormon removed a portion of his abridgement.

D&C 10: 3 Nevertheless, it is now restored unto you again; therefore see that you are faithful and continue on unto the finishing of the remainder of the work of translation as you have begun. Hmmm... D&C 10: 38 And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi; 39 Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. 40 And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account— 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; Hemi, if you read these words very closely, with an understanding of some very small details, you see that the Lord is not instructing Joseph Smith to pick up where he left off in translation in verse 3. Pay close attention to these words in verse 38: And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi; Keep in mind there were 3 sets of plates that all contained a record of the same time period. It is very difficult to understand which plates the Lord is talking about until you focus on which plates are which. Plates of Mormon: These are the plates Joseph Smith began translating from. These plates were made my Mormon and contain an abridgement of the Large Plates of Nephi. The time period in question was written by Mormon almost 1,000 years after the events themselves. Large Plates of Nephi: Joseph Smith did not have these plates. He never translated from these plates. The time period in question (from Lehi to King Benjamin) was written by the kings NOT the same authors as wrote in the Small Plates of Nephi over the same time period (Jacob 1). The Small plates did not necessarily describe the same events because they dealt more with the government of the people, and not the progress of the people spiritually. Small Plates of Nephi: Written by the prophets (Nephi up to King Benjamin -- as currently stands in the Book of Mormon we have). Look at some comments made by Mormon when he found the Small Plates of Nephi: Words of Mormon: 3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi. That's a good description of the Small Plates of Nephi. He is not saying immediately after he finished abridging the Large Plates up to King Benjamin, but he's saying after he finished his entire abridgement including from Lehi to King Benjamin. It was just before he gave his plates to Moroni, so the abridgement was nearly complete. 4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass— This shouldn't be a surprize to us, this is the purpose that Nephi had a second set or records kept by the prophets. 5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people. Here is the interesting part. He says he "chose" these things to finish his record upon. He chose them. There are 2 possible explanations. 1) He kept his abridgement of the large plates in tact and inserted or included the Small Plates in the middle of his abridgement, about at the end of the time period the Small Plates covered. 2) He removed his abridgement of the same time period covered by the Small Plates, thus "chose" them over his abridgement of the Large Plates, and inserted this more spiritual rendition of the same time period. In my mind, Mormon is more accurately describing the 2nd. Now, after you respond to this, I will explain how the Lord still allowed for the "lost pages" in this scenario. Do you understand what I'm saying so far?

Where did you read this, that he didn't translate the Small Plates until after he finished the rest?

I've been interested in things like this for quite some time. I've been trying to put pieces together to determine exactly what plates we have, where they end and start. It seems simple at first. But, if you read a few key verses, maybe it isn't so easy. For instance, look at what the Lord told Joseph Smith in D&C 10 when He gave him power to translate again: 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; This would be an awesome disussion. I have other scriptural references that are mostly overlooked in the Book of Mormon that help piece together the history of the various sets of plates used by the Nephites. But, what do we learn from the above verse? It sounds like the Lord is saying not all of the translation they made was lost. It sounds like they retained a portion of their translation. However, here's the difficulty. The 116 Lost Pages are typically called "the Book of Lehi" (see heading to Section 10). Did the Book of Lehi include their history, even of Nephi, all the way up to King Benjamin without changing names? Do you know that after Nephi the Small and Large Plates did not have the same authors? (See Jacob 1) Did you know Amaleki (last author in the Small Plates) lived to see the death of King Mosiah I while he yet had possession of the Small Plates, and he gave them to King Benjamin because he had no children? (Omni) What does all this mean and why is it significant? Joseph Smith did not have possession of the Large Plates of Nephi, in fact, there is no evidence or record that he ever saw them (except for in vision when he saw them filling an underground room). Joseph Smith had possession of 3 sets of plates: 1. Plates of Mormon (Mormon's abridgement of the Large Plates from Lehi through 4th Nephi) 2. Small Plates of Nephi (or an unabridged copy of them) 3. Plates of Ether (the sealed portion) The Plates of Mormon also consisted of Moroni's writings and Moroni's abridgment of the Plates of Ether. In The Words of Mormon (Mormon's last writings in his plates -- which he inserted at the end of the Small Plates), Mormon tells us that he didn't even discover the Small Plates of Nephi until his abridgement of the Large Plates was completed and he was about to deliver his abridgement to Moroni. Why is this significant? Consider exactly what the Lord is telling Joseph Smith in D&C 10, while remembering that Joseph didn't even have the Large Plates of Nephi: 38 And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi; "Plates of Nephi" could be referring to the small or Large, or even the Small AND Large Plates. Remember that Joseph really had no idea of the sets of plates and authors at this time. It is very possible the Lord was speaking to him in terms he could understand. To me, the Lord is telling him not to worry about losing the Book of Lehi because the Lord already made arrangements for the stories He wanted to be told to be duplicated. Remember, The Book of Lehi Joseph lost was a translation of Mormon's abridgment of the Book of Lehi. 39 Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. Now since Joseph translated Mormon's abridgment, it was Mormon who said a more particular account was given on the Plates of Nephi... I HOPE YOU'RE FOLLOWING... Because, this portion that was lost was Mormon's abridgmnet of the Large Plates before King Benjamin, MEANING, Mormon HAD TO be referring to the Large Plates because he hadn't even discovered the Small Plates until after he finished his abridgment. Do you see the significance that has in understanding what Joseph lost and retained? 40 And now, because the account which is engraven upon the plates of Nephi is more particular concerning the things which, in my wisdom, I would bring to the knowledge of the people in this account— Now the Lord is referring to the Small Plates of Nephi, which covers the time period of Lehi to King Benjamin. 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; See? What Joseph Smith lost wasn't a history from Lehi to King Benjamin, but the Book of Lehi. On the Large Plates Nephi had his own books. 1 Nephi 9: 2 2 And now, as I have spoken concerning these plates, the Small Plates behold they are not the plates upon which I make a full account of the history of my people; for the plates upon which I make a full account of my people I have given the name of Nephi; wherefore, they are called the plates of Nephi, the Large Plates after mine own name; and these plates also are called the plates of Nephi. Jacob throws in some clarifications in Jacob 1. Read Jacob 1 and see if it was possible that the Large Plates, which were written by the Kings of the people, NOT the same authors as the Small Plates, could have been called "The Book of Lehi" all the way up to King Benjamin. It seems very doubtful. Help me piece this together if you're interested. It seems to me that the 116 Lost Pages was simply Mormon's abridgment of Lehi's writings, and they retained the translation made from the Large Plates from Nephi to Benjamin. The Lord is telling Joseph Smith, not only should he not retranslate Lehi, but that he should retranslate the portion he retained from DIFFERENT plates... the Small Plates of Nephi. ...or that's what it sounds like to me. Ideas?

Maybe even a better discussion is "what is spirit?" Is spirit something that can't be seen, felt, or heard? Or, is it something tangible, that can be felt, seen, and heard? Spirit is real. It is who we are. It's a body, though different from the physical body, but a real, tangible body all the same. God is an actual Being; an actual Parent. He lives by law, like He commands us to do. God *had to* send His Son to the earth to redeem man. He had no choice. He is a glorified, perfected, Man, who is doing all He can to save as many of HIs children as possible. But, in His effort, He is bound by law. Other than the fact that He has all power over the physical world by speaking, He is not all that unlike us. Of course, He is immortal, glorified, and perfected, but is a Man with a wife and children, doing His all to provide for His children. Adam is His son born with an immortal body. Adam chose to fall to bring about Father's plan of redemption. This helps us see that God is a Real Person. He exists in space.

No, I'm referring to just the birth of Adam and Eve. I assume you already believe all other men and women were born, or not made from a lump of clay. If Adam and Eve were born it shows the need for our bodies past this earth life. If God can just mold clay and breath on it to create bodies for His children, then there doesn't seem to be the need for a physical body.

I think both. I don't think you can have one without the other. The one brings the need for the other. Without the first the second is not needed.

Hmmmm... broken link?

Well, then you consider that the umbilical cord is unique to "birth." I only mention it that way because once you understand they were born, and not made from a lump of clay, it changes everything.

I don't understand this quote. All men have been born. That Adam was created from the dust of the ground is true of all men who are born. So... I don't think we understand "birth" (from our perspective) as much as we think we do.

Very good stuff from a very good man.

I don't see how a member of the Church could NOT think there are endless amounts of galaxies with endless amounts of planets populated by man. Each wouldn't have to be at the same state of progression, but each world would be somewhat similar to our own.

I started reading, but frankly, your post is just too darn long. Maybe you can summarize what you are trying to say in just couple *shorter* paragraphs?

Or, people took animals with them to various locations and they disbursed that way?

If you use just the KJV then I would agree. However, as has been stated many times, we have the Book of Mormon to help clarify and also the portion of the KJV that Joseph Smith corrected. The only roadblock remaining is the one that people use to not see that the Book of Mormon is true. That's a personal thing, not based on what version of the Bible the CHurch uses. Converts come because people feel and listen to the Spirit. The conversion happens by recognizing Joseph Smith is a prophet and the Book of Mormon is scripture, not by correctly understanding any particular translation or version of the Bible. If people honestly and sincerely read their scriptures and desire and pray to understand and be led to the truth, it will happen. I'd venture to say the roadblock is people aren't reading whatever version of the Bible they prefer enough, as opposed to not understanding what it means because it's worded one way or another.