Justice

D&C 76 tells us that it's all about Jesus Christ. It describes those who will go to outer darkness, and those who will go to the different kingdoms of glory, including the Celestial Kingdom. If you break it apart and simplify the cause of the separation, you will be left with one thing: 51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus Describes those who will receive Celestial glory. Before that it describes those who received this testimony then afterward rejected it: 32 They are they who are the sons of perdition Each kingdom in between these 2 are based on the degree which those people received the testimony of Jesus. It's simple.

This is a reminder to me how we often look at the things of God through our eyes. We try to base our understanding of Him on what we know instead on what He has revealed. As an example, think and ponder for a while on how God views birth into this world and death from this world. Then, go from there and try to imagine how God sees things as you read His words.

I think one good thing for teens to do when they meet is pick a common story that has a movie or several movies made about it and read the story together to dispell the false ideas presented in the movie. You could do a different story each week, and it might be fun watching and discussing how the movies portray the Bible story.

Just because he knew at that point he would have children, or "Seed," doesn't mean he knew how it was going to happen. :)

I read the content of the original post many times today (I copied it and e-mailed it to work). I don't think he is saying it is totally allegorical. I think some of his arguments are saying some of it was real. Maybe in his class he presented it differently, or maybe Robert Millet had some influence on this text. The one point he makes that can't be explained away is that if the fruit itself is what caused their bodies to change, then that fruit would have had to be given to all living things that fell. I believe they ate a fruit, but I don't think the physical properties of the fruit is what caused them to change. Adam realized his destiny when he stated that a man must leave his father and mother... That's one of the most profound statements in all of scripture. Adam had a mother and father to leave, spiritually and physically.

In my brain I define it this way... Since the physical world is meant to teach us of the spiritual world, I compare intelligence to physical matter. I believe it has the same relation as physical matter to our physical bodies. Our physical body is made up of the same matter that everything else is made of. It is eternal and infinite in supply. Our spirit body is made from intelligence, or spirit matter. I believe our spirits are born, perhaps in a manner more like physical birth that we realize. We are eternal, even though we had a beginning, because we are born from eternal beings... both a Father and Mother. That's how I wrap my brain around it.

That's another good question! Sheeesh, you're making me think. Well, I've never officially adopted that belief, but it sounds like it might true. All I can say is that sometimes after a spirit has left a body it will still show signs of life, twitch or shake, or whatever. So, I don't know if it means it HAS to be the case. The church's official position is that the spirit enters the body some time between conception and birth, so that's what I'll stay with. If a baby's body moves because it is growing or is influenced by the mother's spririt in some way, I don't know. So, again, I really don't know. But, my opinion is that it doesn't necessarily have to have a spirit because it moves. It cannot exisit without an umbilical cord unless it has a spirit to sustain it. That's my story, and as flakey as it is, I'm sticking with it!

We're having tres leche cake tonight for dessert (my son's favorite)...you're welcome to a piece. :)

Correct. But, that doesn't mean they weren't called souls at some point, due to the topic of this thread... seeing how the word soul is used in a broader sense at times.

Good question. My answer is I don't know. What I do know is that you must be born on earth in order to be resurrected. How the resurrection takes place has not been revealed as far as I have seen. My theory is that all lesser elements must obey greater. I believe it has something to do with our mastering our physical body. Eventually we will be able to speak and those elements must obey, and form our physical body. Until we learn how to do it for ourselves, Christ will do it for us. I know that leaves more questions than it answers, but that's how it fits into my little brain. Many people think that the resurrection means your body will be joined to your spirit forever, literally. I like to think of it more like an eternal marriage between husband and wife. They are bound eternally, but does not mean they have to be at each other's side, or stuck to each other for eternity. I think of the resurrection as more of a learned, granted, abiltity, as opposed to a one time event. I may be way off base, but it would explain a lot of things, for instance, like how Jesus appeared in a closed, locked room, and how resurrected beings can travel faster than the speed of light, or in the twinkling of an eye. This isn't a wild, hair-brained idea that I came up with not having studied, pondered, or prayed. I could be wrong, but this is my current belief.

There are other terms we could quote from scripture that are used to define more than one thing. Like the term hell... it has a general meaning, but it also has a very specific meaning. Soul is the same; it has a general menaing, but it also has a specific meaning. The body is physical matter and is animated by a spirit. There is no life in the physical body unless there is a spirit present. The spirit of a man can exist independant of the body. But, to receive a fulness of joy, a man must be both body and spirit. From my studies it appears the combination of a body and spirit is only termed a "soul" when it is eternally connected, or after the resurrection. Possibly even only a glorified and perfected man (body and spirit) can be called a soul. I think in some instances they use the term soul to describe a man or his spirit before the resurrection. That makes it confusing. There are places in scripture where some prophets use the term soul interchangably with spirit, and that further complicates it. My 2 cents.

Very good comments! Sorry it took so long. Yes! Seminarysnoozer! Even as early as chapter 17. Here, watch how I see this unfolding... Chapter 17: He has just taught them many words in the previous few chapters, and at this point is about to leave. He perceives that they are weak, and that they cannot understand all the words He was commanded by the Father to speak. So, next He tells them to bring their sick and afflicted of all kind, including the deaf (blind also). Isn't it interesting that He spoke the words in the previous chapters having not healed them first? The deaf could not hear Him. There is something significant in what is coming. 8 For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you. Do you think that He is specifically talking about "showing" them how He can heal? The more I pondered on this the more I realized there was more. He is healing them so He CAN show them what He showed to the people at Jerusalem. Notice He says they cannot understand all His words. Then, notice where He says He is going to continue to teach them what the Father commanded Him to: Chapter 20: 10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel. Then, notice the text that follows is congruent with what He was teaching them before chapter 17. So, what took place between the beginning of 17 and verse 10 of chapter 20 that "prepared them" so they could understand the rest of His words? OK, I'll spoil. In short, they were baptized so they could be given the gift of the Holy Ghost! Watch how it unfolds... Chapter 17: 11 And it came to pass that he commanded that their little children should be brought. 12 So they brought their little children and set them down upon the ground round about him, and Jesus stood in the midst; and the multitude gave way till they had all been brought unto him. 13 And it came to pass that when they had all been brought, and Jesus stood in the midst, he commanded the multitude that they should kneel down upon the ground. 14 And it came to pass that when they had knelt upon the ground, Jesus groaned within himself, and said: Father, I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel. 15 And when he had said these words, he himself also knelt upon the earth; and behold he prayed unto the Father, and the things which he prayed cannot be written, and the multitude did bear record who heard him. 16 And after this manner do they bear record: The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father; 17 And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak; and no one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father. 18 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying unto the Father, he arose; but so great was the joy of the multitude that they were overcome. 19 And it came to pass that Jesus spake unto them, and bade them arise. This is the red letter edition, Jesus words being red. Isn't it amazing that so few of His words were quoted, but there are signs of them DOING things... like kneeling upon the ground. In other places in the Book of Mormon, falling to the earth, or kneeling to the ground, is a symbol of the part of the plan that required mortality, and for all men to die. Rising from the earth, or rising from the ground is symbolic of the resurrection and even judgment and eternal glory. Now, from so few words here, it appears they are involved in some kind of ritual, or reinacting some events from the Plan of Salvation. Notice how Jesus symbolically portrays the atonement (in red letters). If you read those verses with an open mind, knowing that they were forbidden to write everything, can you see some sort of Temple ceremony? If the people could not understand the words alone, it would stand to reason that symbols would teach better, or prepare someone to receive the words. There is much more evidence there, but I'll move ahead. In chapter 18, Jesus performs another deeply symbolic ordinance, to remind them of the symbols they just saw. This symbol was to be performed often. He passes bread and wine! Notice how He has them all sit on the ground again, and after raise from the ground? And, notice now when they describe this event they just say "the things we heard" and never mention seeing anything. Then, notice when they take the sacrament the next time He has them all stand, or arise, before they take it. They are then baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost... and THEN He proceeds with His teaching. Now, think back to the first time you left the Temple. Would you say the things you heard were remarakble? Or, would you more accurately say the things you saw and heard were remarakeble? This is how these people described what they saw and heard, and my guess is, participated in. He needed to heal them all, lame, dumb, deaf, blind, in order for them all to participate. I skimmed 100 miles per hour, only touching a few highlights... Anyone else see anything interesting along those lines?

If children cause chaos in Sacrament meeting, it is not their fault. If they persist in doing so it is the fault of their parents. Also in scripture, Christ said to let the little children come to Him, for such is the Kingdom of God. If children are unruly in Sacrament meeting we should teach them not to be instead of not allowing them to be there.

Our memories of the pre-earth life were wiped as well, but we know some of the plan. Adam walked and talked with God. Whether or not his pre-earth life memories were wiped or not, he still had great opportunity to learn from God Himself.

Has anyone discovered the symbolisms in 3 Nephi 17 yet? (and 18-19) If you don't want to talk about it openly, please send me a private message, or loosely hint at it here. I'm just really curious how many have seen it. I'll check back in a few days.

Good points, as always. I guess I just assume that Adam and Eve passed through some veil when they were born as well. If they were born as infants, they had to re-learn many things, just as we had to. Many of my beliefs and opinions hinge on Adam and Eve being born. I believe we made choices in the pre-mortal existence. But, for us to know what it was like to be outside Father's presence, in a body of flesh and bone (or blood) was impossible. Many did not need the experience. Many refused to partake in the experience. But, for most who are born here, this experience was necessary. I believe we were taught and prepared as much as was possible. But, Adam and Eve truly had their eyes open and "became as [God]" when they partook of the forbidden fruit.

I agree. But, lack of knowledge is a natural consequence of the lack of experience. There are many teens who think they know all about something when they simply gain knowledge of it, then learn later that they really didn't understand it at all after experience. I think we agree, for the most part. I just like to encourage people to take time and ponder about what it must have been like for Adam and Eve, not having the knowledge of good and evil (by the way, that is knowledge of, not experience of). Being in a state of innocence would alter your perception and reality.

As has been said, they may very well have been taught about the fall, but it was impossible to understand without experience. How could they even understand death and ultimate sacrifice as immortal? How could they have understood the need to offer sacrifice until after they fell? It takes a lot of quiet contemplation and pondering to imagine what it may have been like for them before and after the fall. It's like us trying to understand eternity now, they could not understand something that was finite or that ended. What did it mean to them that Jehova would be born (they were innocent and did not understand) and then die (they were immortal and had no understanding of death). Although they may have been taught the words, they were beyond their grasp.

D&C 132: 7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. I think that scripture is pretty clear.

Only liberal if that interpretation goes against your own, otherwise, it's conservative. :)

This is also described in greater detail in Alma 14 (started in 13). If you pay very close attention to whenever this story is told, God did not place the cherubim and flaming sword until AFTER Adam and Eve left the Garden. I believe God gave them their choice, after they partook of the forbidden fruit, whether to partake of the tree of life at that point, and forgo their mortality, or to leave the Garden and enter mortality. They chose to enter mortality. I believe THIS is the choice Adam and Eve are to be honored for.

There is one other thing that is impossible for us to understand at this point in our progression, because we are no longer like they were... ...innocent. The fact that they were innocent changes how we use logic to try to determine their standing in the Garden of Eden. They were innocent, as little children, and therefore could not understand this use of the body, even if instructed or commanded. They didn't even know or realize they were naked until after they partook of the forbidden fruit. You can explain procreation to a 2 or 3 year old and it will mean absolutely nothing. Having children is not evil nor part of the corrupted world. It is ordained by God. It is what we do to the practice that makes it evil.

There was only One begotten in the flesh, or in mortality. It is often not completed, but that is the intent. Adam, being born into immortality, then falling into mortality by his choice, does not fit the same criteria as Christ. John 1: 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 2 Nephi 25: 12 But, behold, they shall have wars, and rumors of wars; and when the day cometh that the Only Begotten of the Father, yea, even the Father of heaven and of earth, shall manifest himself unto them in the flesh, behold, they will reject him, because of their iniquities, and the hardness of their hearts, and the stiffness of their necks. Jacob 4: 11 Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh. Resurrection of Christ only being possible because He was born flesh or mortal. D&C 93: 11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. He was the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, or in mortalilty, or after the fall. GS Father In Heaven The Father of the spirits of all mankind (Ps. 82: 6; Matt. 5: 48; John 10: 34; Rom. 8: 16-17; Gal. 4: 7; 1 Jn. 3: 2). Jesus is his Only Begotten Son in the flesh. Man has been commanded to obey and give reverence to the Father and to pray to him in Jesus’ name. Isaac was in similitude of God's only begotten son, even though Isaac was not Abraham's only son. He was considered his only begotten son because he was the only one born in the covenant (Jacob 4: 5,11). Genesis 22: 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. • • • 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. • • • 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: I believe the scriptures are clear that God is our Father in Heaven. To think any different would be putting a twist on those words. I believe Adam and Eve were born the same way all men and women were born throughout all time and eternity, but they were born immortal because their Mother was immortal.

My personal opinion is to skip the footnotes the first time you read it. It seems the footnotes are as long as the chapters themselves. When you read it through the second time, which is required IMO, then you can add the footnotes. The footnotes really take off on tangents and it's hard to re-center yourself on where you left on in the previous chapter.

PC, we believe in one God, just as the Bible teaches. We aren't lying to you. To understand, maybe you need to ponder and pray on the definition of the word "one" that's used to describe God. Genesis 1: 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. One verse clearly uses a plural tone. The next is singular. We understand the word "one" differently than you, that's all. Clearly, there is more than one being because of verse 26 (and others like it), yet they are One God. The other point that people miss is how did God get male and female from just Himself? He was speaking of His kind, "in our image," not necessarily Him personally. It turns out He did make man in His own image, but it is the same image as the rest of His kind, including females of His kind. I don't see how the female equation can be removed from His statement. He is stating there are females of His kind also. Other scriptures support this.