MrNirom

Joseph Smith clearly taught that if a thing has a beginning then it must have an end. He said: "I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man - the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. AS THE LORD LIVETH, IF IT HAD A BEGINNING, IT WILL HAVE AN END. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say the spirit of man had a beginning, PROVE that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true." DHC 6:311 Joseph was as sure "as the Lord liveth" of this doctrine. He could have easily elaborated on this principle and said: If the spirit of man began at birth it will have an end and be no more, but if it has always existed then it will exist forever. If a punishment has a beginning then it will have an end. The only way a punishment can last for eternity is if it never had a beginning.

IMHO.. trying to explain the impossible is detrimental at best.. but here goes. It was all about linage. The Levities were the only ones who held the Aaronic priesthood.. the rest of the world was not allowed. It could very well have been an agreement in the pre-mortal life that those who chose that linage would have restrictions put on them at a point in time in history to test the faith of the people. Both who had it.. and those who couldn't... because both were affected by it. There was much contention in the Church about it and in God's time.. not ours.. it was all worked out! Did I just vaporize myself? :-)

My Mom and Dad finally learned after many years together that they did not discuss politics.. or voting. My mother's philosophy was to vote opposite of my Dad... therefore canceling out his vote. He learned to say nothing!

I found that really looking further back in Joseph's Family History.. will tell the truest tale of all. 100 years prior in about 1609... there was a man by the name of John Lathrop. Now John was a Deacon in the Church of England, and he was in charge of his own Church and congregation just outside of Queens Cambridge. Then in about 1623, he came to question the Church of England in whether or not they had the "Authority" to act in the name of God. Was the priesthood that he held.. authorized? He determined.. NO... it was not... So he left the Church of England as was punished by finally being shipped to the "new land".... America. So seven generations later.. a prodigy of his linage would restore that priesthood to the Earth... Joseph Smith. Also.. six generations later.. thru a different line.. another of his prodigy would also be there to restore the priesthood to the Earth... Oliver Cowdery. Also.. another seven generations later... thru now a different line of his prodigy.. there would be others who would be involved with the restoration of the priesthood... Orson & Parley P. Pratt, Fredrick G. Williams.. and through another line... Marion G. Romney. And other generations down the line that would also become Prophets to that priesthood... Hyrum Smith, Joseph F. Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, & Wilford Woodruff. So one man... over 100 years ago.. who left the church because he recognized that the Authority of God was not on the earth.. was blessed through his lineage beyond measure! So the coming of the Gospel and the Priesthood.. was being watched over by God.. through out time.

For me.. the WoW was to set us apart from the world. To be in it.. not of it. And because we are suppose to be an "enlighten" people.. the prophet Joseph has said.. I teach them and let them govern themselves. Makes me wonder if we are "getting it" yet? It seems we have to keep going over the same things over and over and over and over and over again!

Oh.. I agree.. but one will never ban it here. No more than they could stop the alcohol from flowing. As long as the wicked world wants it.. the wicked world will get it. We will need new Porno prisons built. 1/100 for those that distribute.. and 99/100 for those that use. Or will this just be a misdemeanor with a fine attached? I think we need to make sure that we as members are not contributing to the delinquency first. Something about a log in ones eye? Plus... I would like to see what the punishment is going to be in that country.

So.. how is that "Be ye therefore perfect... even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." working out of you? I tell them.. just fine. How is believing in Christ waiting for his grace and nothing to show him for it... working out for you?

Ok.. I am confused.. the changing of scripture is A witness of ongoing revelation?

Well... if you remove all temptation from the world.. how am I to be tested and prove my faithfulness? The idea is to work above it!

Here is another prime example: Written by E. T. Tennyson Only such a WHIRLWIND could start whirling "waterspouts" powerful enough to siphon up and put in orbit the mighty waters of the sea, and while Revelation (16:18) describes it as "such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty and so great", it is obvious that even this vivid description does not give us a conception of its terribleness, simply because there has never been anything upon this earth to compare with it! And while the above description is given in the translations as that of an earthquake, it is now obvious that this is a mistranslation! For the word rendered "earthquake" in the English translations is from the Greek prime verb "seio", and Strong"s Greek Dictionary (page 64) defines it as "A COMMOTION, i.e. OF THE AIR, A GALE!" This same Greek word is rendered "TEMPEST" at Matthew 8:24, the TEMPEST that threatened to sink the ship on which Jesus slept, and no one believes this was an earthquake simply because the evidence is overwhelming that it was a tornado, hurricane or whirlwind, and not an earthquake. For when the disciples called Jesus from his sleep, he did not rebuke an "earthquake", but Matthew says "he arose and rebuked the WINDS and the sea, and there was great CALM" (Verse 26)! Nothing was said about an earthquake, because there was no earthquake! This TEMPEST ("seio") was a tornado, hurricane or whirlwind, and as conclusive proof, note that the men marvelled "that even the WINDS and the sea obey him" (Verse 27). So, if the TEMPEST (from the Greek "seio") of Matthew's record was a tornado or whirlwind, we may be sure the TEMPEST (from the Greek "seio", mistranslated "earthquake") of Revelation is not an earthquake, but that this description is that of the "SO GREAT A WHIRLWIND" of Armageddon! Not only does the prophet tell us so, but mark carefully that it is "poured out into the AIR", and that it is accompanied by "thunders, lightenings, and a great hail", all of which go with tornados or whirlwinds, never with earthquakes!

Well.. ya learn somthing new everyday. So the origianl revelation was removed? or was it placed somewhere else? Guess I will pull that video down.

Funny.. restoration and redemption. Prior to the 2nd coming.. the earth will be "restored" to its paradisaical Glory. And then at the end of the millennial reign.. it will be redeemed and resurrected to become the celestial body it was designed for. The earth has already been born.. then baptized. It only needs the Baptism of Fire.. redemption and resurrection. Just like us. :-)

YouTube - Mormon Leaders Lying - UPDATED!

Just posted and ready for viewing: The Willie and Martin Handcart Story. In 1856, two Mormon emigrant handcart companies and two wagon trains were caught in the October snows of Wyoming, on their way to Salt Lake City.

Here is what was happening. I was discussing "God" with a non member and was trying to figure out how to explain that Jesus is both the son of God.. and God the Father.. but not our Heavenly Father. And then.. whether or not we "worship" Jesus. Now this idea has been hard for me to implement. I have been worshiping the Father.. in the name of Christ... but I have not "worshiped" Christ. Someone brought up.. what do we mean by worship. And that is a good point. I pray to the Father.. but do it in the name of Christ. I remember Christ.. by partaking of the Sacrament. I speak of Christ.. I recognize and am so thankful what he did for us.. and for me. But my problem is when someone asks me if I worship Christ. I don't know why but I get this idea in my head of bowing down over and over again. "That every knee should bow." So.. because I pray to the Father.. in my head.. that is worship. Probably because I am on my knees. But I am never on my knees praying to Christ. So I feel like I am not worshiping Christ... and therefore can't say to the person.. yes.. I worship Christ. So I am trying to .. "in my head" figure a way that I can say I am worshiping Christ.. and the Father. I knew that God appeared to Moses.. and Moses saw him.. but then believing that God was Jesus.. and he was in spirit form as he had not come to earth yet.. I was trying to figure out what seeing Jesus in spirit form looked like. Because people who believe that God is a spirit.. when you then tell them that Jesus was a spirit when he appeared to Moses.. then going to the first vision.. how did Joseph know that the Father or the Son was just not in spirit form.. instead of with flesh and bone. I mean.. if they "look" the same.. how would one tell? I kinda get the idea that Joseph did not at that time distinguish that God or the Son was made of flesh and bone.. but did distinguish that they were in the form of man.. IE.. two hands, arms, eyes, ears, legs, etc. and that they were two separate beings. Then of course.. you have those who will then say to me.. well... God being who he is.. can appear in any form that he wants and can multiply himself is he so desires. (it feels like a losing battle talking to non members about this.) So.. trying to teach that God is a corporeal being from the Bible is impossible. It is only from latter day revelation through Joseph Smith that we have determined he has a body of flesh and bone. So have I totally confused everyone?

I would too. The less she knows... the less she will be held accountable for.

So what some would say.. is that when Joseph "saw" the Father and Son together in the first vision.. could the Father not have been in Spiritual Form.. and the Son in physcial form? Sort of proving that the "trinity" God is the truth? Unless Joseph touched the Father and the Son.. how could he have known he had a physcial body? I realize that this could not be... as someone who believes in the trinity would not even accept that Joseph saw a vision... but you can see what I am getting at.

Jehovah was Jesus Christ. At the time of Moses.. was he is spiritual form.. or did he have some type of physical body? In Exodus 33:9-11 it says: 9 And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy• pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses. 10 And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door. 11 And the Lord spake• unto Moses face• to face, as a man speaketh• unto his friend•. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua•, the son of Nun•, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. I have others who say that Moses and Abraham knew that Jehovah was Jesus Christ and they worshiped him. It has been said that we do not worship Jesus Christ.. but we worship the Eternal Father through Jesus Christ. What is your take?

I know of people who can communicate with animals. We laugh about Dr Doolittle.. but there are many things that are out there that are truthful.. and we just don't know about it all. And the things we don't know about.. we assume that if it is not in the scriptures.. then it can't be true or it is of Satan. Remember.. Joseph Smith said there are many things he knows about that he could not tell us because we are not ready. Do you think those things are in the scriptures? I agree with Roytucker: The danger is not in communicating with angels. The danger is in mistaking all supernatural manifestations as sent from heaven.

Well.. I am not going to be rude to the people who feel it is a "gift". And many do. I guess you would have to ask them how they feel about it. I do not have this "ability". (is that better?) I was wondering if any active Mormon did?

He says it is wrong to have the gift?

My main interest here is to determine IF there are latter day saints who have this ability.. and what they have done about or with it. I realize there are many people who have the idea it is all evil.. and I understand that. Personally, I feel.. as in all things.. there is good and evil.

When you said "This idea is foreign to the Bible. For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works [including baptism] lest any man should boast." I made the inference that you did not believe baptism is necessary. From what I understand.. most Christians believe they are "saved" just by accepting Christ. We believe that the acceptance is just the first step in the Salvation process... not the only thing required. In other words.. one can not get baptized without accepting Christ first. Ok.. if you accept Christ as your Savior.. and that is all you do.. then your are not "saved".

Thanks for the info. That reminds me: A Scientist called upon God and told him that mankind has determined that he is no longer needed. "You see" he said, "we have figured out how to clone man.. and how to replace a man's heart inside of his body. Things that would have been considered miraculous some time ago is now an everyday occurrence." "Fine" said God, "But before I sever all ties to mankind.. I would like to propose a contest.. A man making contest. The only rule I have is that he must be made of dirt." "Great" said the scientist as he was bending over to pick up some dirt in his hands. "Wait a minute" said God.. "you have to find your own dirt."

Who is CS Lewis?