MrNirom

I wonder who's job it is to determine that he was unworthy? Does a man become unworthy before he does the unworthy act or after? When my bishop counseled me on my marriage.. told the ward the things they were to do to keep themselves worthy.. excommunicated those who were unworthy.. and then gets excommunicated himself for adultery.. should we dismiss everything he taught and counseled in the past? How do we know that the Lord had decided Joseph was unworthy? Would you not think that the Lord would have told somebody? That he would have had Joseph removed? Or do we really really think that the Lord does not really talk to man and this whole God talking to man thing is a sham? We can't have it both ways.... What do you think?

My guess.. they don't understand it. They don't have enough information to act on it. If it had not been a revelation given to Joseph Smith.. we would not have known about it either. Just another reason why the restoration was so necessary.

I would answer your question: To know a truth is to look at the sun and know it exists. To think you know a truth is to be blind and told there is a sun.. and when you look at it.. you can only feel it's warmth. Faith is having a belief in somthing that is unseen.. but is true. Knowing the truth.. you have seen.

Well we know this song was written before man went into space. hehehe

It is important to note that Joseph was not the only one during that time who's bank failed. And destroying the printing press.. well.. that was sort of an eye for an eye kinda thing. The Mormons had their press destroyed in Missouri with no harm or foul to those that did it.. Joseph probably thought the same thing would happen. It didn't.

He didn't marry her.. He was sealed to her at the request of her father. She still lived at home with her parents after the sealing. Joseph died the next year. Helen states: My father...taught me the principle of Celestial marrage, & having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet's own mouth...my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph.69 It was after this that Joseph was invited to teach and explain the principles of Celestial marriage. Upon learning of the principle for herself from Joseph, she willingly committed herself to the eternal link. Her marriage to Joseph was to ensure choice personal and family relationships..... A non-sexual aspect to the marriage can be reasonably assumed as Helen continued to live with her parents after the sealing. This is in harmony with historian Stanely B. Kimball's interpretation that the marriage was unconsummated

It is very hard these days to buy into the Joseph Smith story when you are coming at it from the back side. When you know everything "About" Joseph it can be harder to accept "who" he is... than if you learn "who" he is.. (a prophet of God) first and then learn all about everything he did. But it is possible. The hardest thing for people to realize is that a prophet is called of God.. not the other way around. God is choosing a man from a pool of imperfect beings. No one can live up to the expectation of perfection. But that does not stop God from using that man. I mean.. really.. could have God chose a different man to have talked to? You know.. somebody we all trust.. and respect.. and revere. Like a president of the United States? Would that have made a difference? How about someone with a different name.. Joseph Smith is not the best name in the world for a prophet. I think what we have to do.. it look at what God did say to him... not what he did. To get a testimony.. or belief.. It is what is being said... not necessarily by whom. :)

What makes any doctrine believable? Why do some people believe one thing.. and others believe another? Did someone "prove" their doctrine and so they converted? This doctrine can not be proved by anyone.. anymore that you can prove God exists or that the space of the universe goes on forever. FAITH is what makes believers. And it starts with us. Do we believe that IF we ask God if something is true or not.. will he tell us? Do we have FAITH that God will answer? But before we can ask God.. even if we do have the faith he will answer.. we will determine if we will even take the question to God. If you were of another religion.. and you heard the Doctrine.. "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be" Would you even ask God? Let's make some assumptions here: 1. This doctrine is true. 2. Jesus Christ knows this doctrine is true. Can you see Jesus starting his ministry and saying to everyone.. here is what I have come to teach you.. "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be" Just how far do you think Christianity would have come? I think the death of Jesus would have been immediate! It is not that the doctrine was false.. it that the people could in no way accept the doctrine based on what they had been taught and believed. Now we can understand why we learn line upon line.. precept upon precept. Milk before Meat. Just my 1 cent. :)

I think that the most important lesson here is the power of witnesses. If there is a traffic accident.. and one person sees it.. we have to believe the one. If two see it.. then we get to put the two statements together and come up with a better idea of what happened. If we get 3, 4, 10, 50, 100, 1000.. you can see that the chances of getting to the truth go up. So we now apply this principle to Jesus Christ. Who was he? What did he teach? Where do we go to find out about him? For everyone in the world.. the Bible is that source. It came from the people who walked and talked with him. The gospels are written by 4 people. Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John. 4 versions of his life. It was written in one area, by one people, by one country.. on one continent. I mean if you look at the area on a map where the Bible is written about.. it is about 150 miles long by 75 miles wide. Oh sometimes when they were in Egypt.. the distance from Jerusalem to the Pyramids is about 250 miles. Other than that.. you can tell it was a real small area. Now.. here is something to think about. Jesus Christ is the most important person on this world.. right? What he taught was very important to every person on this planet. If it was so important.. why did only one little selection of land.. and one very small amount of people.. get to hear this very important message? I mean.. only one nation can testify of him? There is nothing more? Jesus Christ is the son of God. God created the whole world. There were more people on the earth than just in Jerusalem. What about North America.. Central America.. South America? If God talked to men he called prophets... did he not talk to man everywhere on the earth? Did he not give the same message to all? Wouldn't it be nice if there was another book.. like the bible.. that was written about Jesus Christ and God? A book from another nation? another people? another country? If there was a book written like this.. what would it say? What would we expect it to say? You can find out. It is called the Book of Mormon. It is a book, like the bible, that is a history of God's dealings with man kind.. Jesus Christ's dealing with man kind.. on another continent. On the other side of the world from Jerusalem. The North American Continent. It tells you how important God's message is. It's testifies that Jesus Christ is the son of God and is the Redeemer of the World. It is the 2nd witness. It is a history book that covers about 1000 years of time. From 600BC to 400AD. It is a book that has been prophesied about in the Bible. I urge you to read it. See if what I am saying is not true. See if what we are saying is not true. When you read the Bible... you know how the words reach out and speak to you. They tell you that what you are reading is true. You can't explain it. You just know that the words are from God. You will experience the same thing with the Book of Mormon. The words will testify to your soul.. to your heart... to your mind. There is much happiness in these words. This book shows that our Heavenly Father does indeed love all of us. The Bible and the Book of Mormon.. stand together.. side by side.. and proclaim.. Jesus is the Christ! It is by him.. and no one else.. that ye can be saved! Read it! You can call for a free copy... order it on line... or read it on line. (The on-line version will read it out loud) ON LINE SCRIPTURES Call - 1-888-537-7111 ORDER YOUR ***FREE*** ON LINE

You know.. it think it all comes down to our idea of perfection. We know that this is Christ's Chruch.. Christ is perfect.. so we expect the Chruch to be perfect. We expect the people in the Church to be pefect. At least our idea of it. To find out that the Prophet Joseph was not perfect.. Brigham was not perfect.. Some Apostle was not perfect.. a Stake President was not perfect.. a Bishop was not perfect.... it destroys our "image" of what we think the Church should be. Perfect. The Gospel is Perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect. So why can't everyone who is in his Church be perfect? I mean.. come on.. we need perfection somewhere... right? Why do we let this lack of perfection bother us? It is so easy to say.. "well I know I am not perfect.. but I expect the leader of a Church to be more perfect than I." Like when a child expects a parent to be more perfect. Does it happen? NO When we say "The Church is true".. don't we mean it's teachings? Don't we mean the idea for which it stands? The purpose of it's exsistance? When you or I or anyone.. decides to sin.. leave the Church.. speak out against it.. Does it change the status from being "The true Church" to "The false Church"? for everyone else? NO I think the only thing that should shake our faith is if you learned something terrible about Christ. To find out he was just a flim flam man... now that would make a difference. It is other people outside of the church who want to label Joseph as a false prophet.. or a fallen prophet.. and we somehow allow their rantings to become important to us. We allow the rantings of people outside the church who want to destroy it.. to do so. Hey.. there are more things out there than just Joseph having 34 wives. And any critic who brings up Joseph.. and you answer them on that one.. has a 1000 more items to throw in your face to try to prove that the Church is false. I mean if you spend any time on the FAIR web site.. you can see how the critics come at you from every angle. I mean really.. I would be more concerned if Joseph really believed and taught and said he received a revelation that there were men on the moon! But because he hid polygamy from the world, or failed at a bank, or got angry and didn't act "Christ" like.. or because Brigham thought Adam was God.. or whatever.. does not make the teachings of Christ false or the Gospel any less true.. or our Salvation any less important. I am not saying that it is not important to discuss these things.. and know about these things. But it is important to get in your head that there is no such thing as Perfect on this world when it comes to human beings. Bottom line is this.. If you don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true Church.. which one is? :)

I suppose one can have a social life without attending a social club. But if you attend a social club, it is determined that you are exercising your social life. :)

I think that this is the main point right here. You have to a keep in mind the main reason we go. It is a commandment. If that is not your reason for going.. then you are going for the wrong reason. The social aspect is the blessing that the commandment is predicated on.

Is that like killing two birds with one stone? I guess it depends on if your intention was to kill two birds... or just one... but got the 2nd one as a bonus. :)

I think everyone did a great job of explaining the details. I would like to sum it up if I may? Here is the Key: Sealed (bind) SC=Sealing Canceled (loosed) NS=Not Sealed.. only married until death. AD=After Death IBAW=If Both are Worthy D=Divorced A Sealed B AD-> A & B still married. (IBAW) A Sealed B A dies. B marries C (NS) AD-> A & B still married IBAW A marries B AD-> Neither are married nor will be given in marriage. A Marries B A dies. B marries C (not sealed) AD-> None are married or Given A Marries B A dies. B marries C (sealed) AD-> B & C still married IBAW A Sealed B A dies. B marries C (gets SC from A and sealed to C) B&C Married IBAW A Given if W A Sealed B A & B Divorce A Marries C B Marries D AD-> A & B still married IBAW A Marries B Both die on the way to temple for sealing Proxy Sealing Done A & B married IBAW A Marries B Both die but can't get to temple for good reason Proxy Sealing Done A&B married IBAW A Marries B Both die but can't get to temple for not good reason. Proxy Sealing A&B married IBAW IBAW is the Lord's determination. So we still do Proxy Sealings cause we don't know if they are worthy or not. If one partner is worthy and the other is not.. then the worthy one will be given in marriage. How does this look to most of you? I am sure there are more senerios out there..

You and I should be running mates!

I think it is obvious now. The Book of Mormon told us it was the 1st month, 4th day. So now knowing that they changed the 1st of the year from April to Jan.. it computes that he died on the 4th of April.. and was resurrected on the 6th of April. I just did not know that the 1st of the year was in April. So the purpose of this thread was to explain the notion that April 6th was much more important than just the day the Church was organized. Thank you all!

Polygamy and Lying Critics charge that Joseph Smith and his successors made repeated public statements in which they hid or frankly denied the practice of polygamy, despite knowledge to the contrary. It is argued that this dishonesty is morally dubious and inconsistent with the Church's purported principles. The concept of "civil disobedience" is essential to understanding those occasions in which Joseph Smith or other Church members were not forthright about the practice of polygamy. I feel lying to protect one self from danger is acceptable.. especially when you are following commandments of the Lord. If you read the above article.. it really does explain what did happen during that time period. It put all my fears to rest!

I went through this whole thing by myself.. But I have come to understand it. Another good site is: Mormonism 201: Chapter 17 Here is a sample about marrying other mens wives. There is a lot to learn.. but bottom line is this. God chooses the MAN to be his mouth piece, not the other way around.

From what I heard.. it was not always that way. I am certain that after spending much time listening and learning from some of the greatest sources, The Lord Jesus Christ, Moroni, The Apostle Paul, John the Beloved, Peter, James, John the Baptist, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Jacob and who else knows whom.. his ed u ma ka shon took a turn for the better.

Care to share the disproving research?

April Fools Day History!

I think it has everything to do with attitude and intention. (Using the "You might be a redneck" lines) If you go to Church on Sunday for the purpose trading recipes.. you might be using the Church as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday for the purpose showing off your new clothes... you might be using the Church as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday for the bread and water only... you might be using the Church as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday for the purpose of finding out who said what about whom... you might be using the Church as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday to get rid of your kids for awhile... you might be using the Chruch as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday for the purpose of scheduling a date for next week... you might be using the Church as a social club. If you go to Church on Sunday for any other purpose than worshipping the Lord.. you are using the Church as a social club. :-)

I too feel a sadness. Not only for the Prophet and Hyrum for losing their lives.. but also the other two men who were part of the mob. Joseph protecting his life did fire the weapon that was given to him. Out of the six shots fired.. two hit their target. I can't remember if there were 3 misfires or 2? But I know there was another man wounded. Loss of life like this is just sad.. period.

Elphaba, I guess we need to define the word anti. My point here is that the word Anti.. is not a derogatory thing. It is was it is. If someone decides to make a website that is critical of the church.. that is Anti. To me it is going outside the bounds. They have their free agency to do so. What is the purpose of their site? To enlighten the members of their ward to their disappointment in the Church? Maybe to tell the world how they were wronged? To openly discuss church history? What positive thing is gained from this except them getting it off their chest? You said: Ouch! I don't think I mentioned wife and children. Personally I was thinking of a 21 year old male who lives on his own.. joined the church and his "family" is opposed to it. And in this case.. the "family" creates excuses that he is needed every Sunday. What are their intentions? Anti. I have no problem with discussing Church history. But I can tell you this. Those that have the websites.. write their interpretation of the history. They do not "update" their sites with new information received. Here is an example of statements that are made.. what I call twisting: How could anyone believe in the Mormondumb church when their leader Jo Smith had 34 wives, who some were children or were all ready married? Now.. this statement is absolutely TRUE in its basic form. Wouldn't you agree? No slander here. Each statement is a fact that can be documented. I can tell you this.. if you explain everything to this person.. they never correct their error and update their site to tell the "whole" truth. So again.. what is their intent? Sharing Truth with the world? Anti. Again.. what is their purpose here? To teach the world the Truth? Is the type of truth they are teaching important to our salvation? I think NOT. I say.. it is better to just stay away. My advice.

So when we die.. and either go to Paradise or SP.. the sins we committed are removed from our memories?