crazypotato

My only problem with the story given, is that who of us know any of these people, so why jump on the bandwagon of what a chauvinist pig the man was, when we don't have his side of the story? I forget who wrote the story, he knows more about it than I do, but why are other people on here jumping in and saying how awesome the RS pres is and how crappy the loser guy was when he is not here to defend himself? It doesn't seem fair.

That's great for you and your family. Somehow, I don't remember accusing you or anyone you know of the things I was saying about feminists. So I really don't understand how you can make a blanket dismissal of everything that I have said, when I am using my experience and you are using yours. Then who is right, you, or me? How about you are right about your family and friends, and I am right about the people in my life. And by the way, I do not live in a cave.:)

Okay. I feel like there are a lot of people here with their dictionaries and reference tools waiting to correct each other. If you want me to use the terms more clearly, then fine. Women try to emasculate men. Men are effeminate. But I wasn't trying to say that men are effeminate. I was trying to say that women push their female gender roles onto men and then wonder why men aren't more masculine.

"That RS President sounds awesome!!! And the fact that an RS President can (politely) tell a male Church leader to go pound sand when he tries to pull something like that, itself says a little something about gender/power dynamics in the church. " Please be careful to not bash male leaders of the church for suggesting women clean a floor in a house. See how when a man was suggested to do the job, the leader was okay with it. It almost seems, I could be wrong, that you are jumping to the old conclusion that men are so mean to women and good for her for standing up for herself. I don't see that anything mean was done here.

"Um, I'm a man and I do all those things (except the flowers) so does that make me a woman? Am I acting like woman when I clean the bathroom? Am I acting like a woman when I bathe and dress my children? (we're past diapers thankfully, but I changed my fair share). My wife would strongly disagree, she thinks very highly of me when I help around the house. You didn't mention laundry, I do most of the laundry in my house, does that make me a woman too?" You are doing traditionally women's roles. I am sure your wife appreciates you. I never said you were a woman. Those are feminine, nurturing roles. It is just a fact. It is very kind of you to help around the house. Why do you feel like I am attacking you? "The proclamation to the family defines divine rolls for men and women, but it also says they are "equal partners", it doesn't say a man can't be nurturing or a woman can't make a buck or two. It amazes me how many women (and men of course) in the LDS church try their hardest to keep sexism alive." Yes, the proclamation clearly states the primary roles of each gender. Men are primarily to provide and protect. Women are primarily to nurture children. Primarily does not mean exclusively. The proclamation is sexist. It defines genders as different and with different roles. Because men and women may help each other with their roles, that is fine, but equality doesn't mean both of you get a job, both of you clean the house, and both of you do everything. Feminists think that either person could do either or both job. The proclamation specifically states where most of your focus should go to - your role.

Just read this. It is what I am trying to say. Have you turned your man into a hermaphrodite? - Telegraph I don't care what feminists on a website say. Do you seriously think that they are going to say, "Hey! Let's men-bash! We are a bunch of men-haters! The misconceptions that you quote there are words, not actions. I am talking about how feminist our society has become, including Utah. I grew up a Mormon in Utah. I grew up hearing women all over the church claiming they wore the pants in their home. I see women all the time put their husbands down and then say it is not men bashing, just venting. I have heard professional counselors label men as emotionally abusive and women as victims ad nauseum. I have seen several counselors ruin people's marriages and lives by completely taking the woman's side and labeling men as abusive for simply thinking differently and being masculine. It is pervasive in our society to believe that women are strong and capable and men are marginalized. Mainly this happens in the media, in TV commercials and TV shows. For example, "The Simpsons" and shows of that type seem funny and harmless, but the message is that men are stupid and babyish, and women are capable. Please, do not tell me that all shows don't say this same message. I know that. A huge amount of them do. My friends and female associates and pretty much most of the women in the world that I know think that male and female roles need to be blurred, that men need to do housework, cooking, and cleaning, and if they don't, they are jerks. Women think that equality in the home means that they can power struggle with their husband and ultimately, if they are not happy, then their husband must be the problem. Women wear more masculine clothes in general than they used to. In college, at BYU, I frequently felt fearful of being labeled as someone who was looking for a husband so that I could stay home and pop out babies all day. That was highly frowned on. I was told that if I was 21 and didn't go on a mission, I wasn't a good Mormon. I have had LDS women far and wide tell me that once I am a stay at home mom, I will go crazy because i won't be using my brain and to try and get a part time job so that I don't go crazy. These same women wonder why their husbands aren't more ambitious about making more money or getting a better job. Women whine all the time about their husbands not helping with housechores, even if they are SAHMs. I hear all the time, "I would never let my husband. . ." or passing remarks about their husbands having to ask their permission to buy something. This is all normal, but very feminist. Think about what I am saying. I am not attacking any individuals on this board, so why are you all jumping on me? Because you disagree and are going with how society is now doesn't make you correct. The small group of women that I refer to is not an actual group, but a small portion of women in society, LDS, or not, that believe that our society is too feminist and that men are emasculated frequently, and we believe that men are the leaders in the home. For example, women who agree with Dr Laura, or women who agree with "Fascinating Womanhood." Just mention Dr. Laura or Fascinating Womanhood in general society and I frequently am attacked verbally for being a doormat or hear people bash Dr Laura for being a jerk.

No. Feminists from the olden days wanted equal rights. Feminists today are different. Your Collins dictionary definition is the old definition. Feminists today are more than about equal pay and equal rights. I am in a small group of people that understands who modern day feminists are. Modern day feminists push for women to have careers and leave their kids at day care. They push for self-fulfillment first before "slaving" for your family. Modern day feminists men bash. Modern day feminists think that women are smarter and better than men at running things.

Hmmm. . .somehow I have insulted a man that helps abused children? Strange, I don't remember doing that. Anyway, I am speaking generally. And if that kind man was making 35K per year to help abused kids, I think that is great. If I were his wife, I would prefer him to do that job and then another job to cover our expenses. 35K is not providing for a family. I know lots of great guys that cook and clean and work humanitarian jobs. They are nice, but not super masculine. This is exactly what the article was saying. Women are attracted to men who are willing to help them with the house and kids, that don't demand they be a SAHM, and that don't try and take charge and lead the house. They want a man that will be like that, but biologically or something, there is something in us, male and female, that desires the man to protect and provide, and the woman to do the more feminine roles. Nothing about your story changes what I said. The term emasculate refers to men that have lots of feminiine traits and roles. It doesn't mean that the man is a loser or a bad person. Women like emasculated men, but they wish, as the article said, that their men were aggressive, took charge more, did man-jobs more, were leaders, made good money, etc.

As a woman, it would very much bother me if I made more money than my husband. I would lose respect for him. Have you turned your man into a hermaphrodite? - Telegraph Here's a great article that explains how feminism hurts marriages. Women claim that they want to bring in a lot of money and share the housework with their husbands. But without realizing it, they emasculate their husbands and then lose respect for them. Women want a knight in shining armor to provide and protect for them, but they are taught that this is stupid to want and that they should be independent career women, completely equal to men. Then if their man accomodates them, they secretly wish he had more masculine traits. This is taught in our culture and is in the church. So many women brag about how they wear the pants in the family and they run the money and their husband has to ask their permission to do things and they don't let their husband do blah blah blah. That's what they think they want, but not the way God wants a marriage to be. The man should be the leader and provider. Sure, he should be loving and kind and respectful leader and is not the boss of his wife, but he is still the leader.

If you are suffering from depression or anxiety, unfortunately, the Holy Ghost can leave because he cannot confirm negative, untrue thoughts. I have had that problem before. I used to have bouts of depression, that caused me to view people and the world and myself more negatively than they really were. I would pray for help about different things and couldn't understand why I didn't feel the Holy Ghost comforting me. Then I noticed it was because my thoughts had to change to hope in Christ, and I needed to just think about him more in general, rather than dwelling on my problems. Also, I was told by the Spirit to get enough sleep, eat healthy foods (meaning lots of vegetables, fruit, no junk food, no processed foods but whole grains, and exercise moderately instead of intensely. And also going outside without sunscreen on and taking in the sunshine are great. Writing your thoughts down help. There really are lots of imperfect but incredibly compassionate and kind women in this world that would understand and not judge you as bad. You have to believe that because it is true.

Miss, The church is sexist. It is very different from most other religions except some in the South, that I know of, on women and their roles. However, I love that it is sexist. I don't believe in feminism. Women have been brainwashed by the feminist movement that being a mother is instead "popping out babies" or being a "baby-maker." As if we are just animals. Feminists teach you that you are not valuable unless you look and act like a man. Have a mannish job, make lots of money, put your kids in daycare so they don't hold you back, and that homemaking is pathetic and for brainless people. The world have jobs that need to be filled. Male and female jobs. God created us to be either male or female. Satan likes to blur and switch gender roles. It is really sad that so many women are taught by society that stay at home moms are brainless, or oppressed. I love being a mom. I love decorating. I love cooking. I loved my job before I had kids, but it is nothing compared to having a family. There is no way in heck I would put them in daycare and run off and get a career unless my husband were dead, I was divorced, or something extreme. My job is too necessary and too important. Feminists also teach women to be selfish and that everything is about pleasing themselves first. You will never be happy that way. So I am off my high-horse now. And I may want to add that I used to live a much more feminist lifestyle, and my marriage was crappy and I was really unhappy. Once I realized what I was doing, things have changed and i am GENUINELY happy being a girl and doing girl stuff, not trying to be a man.

I think that you should let him go and tell him that you'll be okay. Then do whatever it takes with your bipolar to manage. I don't have bipolar but a friend of mine does. It runs in her family (her mom has it), so she can't ask her mom for any support because her mom doesn't treat herself for the bipolar. Anyway, she found that weighlifting, not just any kind of exercise, but weightlifting extremely evened her out. Also, have you tried acupuncture? It really balanced out my hormonal imbalance. Do you have a good girlfriend or sister that could stay with you while he is gone? Lots of awesome female support, even if not living with you, but frequent girl's nights out will help. My husband is gone a lot for long chunks of time in the military. It is really hard but I don't want to hold him back. My female friends doing social stuff together keeps me sane more than anything else.

Currently I live in an army base. The missionaries cannot proselytize. The rules on this base are that they can only go to the member's houses. So I think call up the missionaries and ask to meet at a member's house on base or over at the church. A house or apt on base would be easier.

Hell's Bells! Whoever posted this original question is purposely opening a can of worms. Women and men are not the same. We have different jobs. Who cares? Feminists. They think that unless we have the exact same responsiblities and jobs as men, that we are downtrodden. And they think that women should act like men in the home - wear the pants in the family, boss and nag the crap out of their husband, emasculate other men. It's so misguided. I have been LDS my entire life and didn't realize until a few years ago how feminist LDS women are. Too feminist. They want their husband to act like a woman at home, cook, clean, change diapers, have long talks, bring them roses. I'll take my stinky, burping, aggressive, bossy, gun-toting, money-earning, messy husband over any of the emasculated girly-men. Who wants to be a man? Not me. I love being a feminine woman. I love being a mom and a primary teacher and in YW and RS. I like wearing dresses and makeup and curling my hair. I like not having a job and hauling my kids off to daycare or having my husband be a stay at home dad. I like knowing that truth about gender and marriage is not relative and up to our own whims, but determined by God, and that he made me so that I would be better at a woman and my husband better at being a man. I don't want my husband to vacuum and whine with me about our periods and do his nails with me. Also, go to the temple and watch the movie in the endowment session. If you really believe the LDS church, you will know how much God loves his son and daughters equally. He sent his son to die for us all.

Sweltzer, Thank you for your comments. I think that lds.net is more rude than a regular church discussion in an LDS classroom would be. I think that because we are faceless internet users, people tend to be more open about their feelings and opinions than they would be in church or with the general public. I may be one of the rude ones. I have found this site seems to have a lot of LDS people that seem to lack doctrinal understanding or weaker testimonies, and also people that seem like they are pretending to ask questions about doctrine but really are not sincere. I think I am considered rude on here because I am direct. When people say things that are against our doctrine, I call them on it. Lots of people think that being direct is rude, but in my opinion, it is rude to let people distort the doctrine of our church to justify their sins and weaknesses, or to falsely state what our doctrine is. There are very nice people on here, too, of all religions. All LDS people are just normal people with faults and shortcomings, including me. You have received some defensive comments from people here. I think that is because LDS people have been persecuted heavily at times. Or because people come to lds websites or lds Youtube videos, for example, and trash our church all the time. If you look up any Youtube video to do with the LDS church, there is always an anti-mormon troll bashing our church under the comments section. I also have been highly suspicious of some posters on here that say they are LDS, but then proceed to twist the doctrine or tear it down, and I wonder if they are even LDS or just saying that they are. I feel that I have personally talked to several people pretending to be believers but then twisting the doctrine to tear our faith down. I don't think you are trying to bash us. Personally, I have been surprised by a lot of people's comments and doctrinal discussions on here and have wondered if this site attracts a high amount of people that are struggling with their testimonies and doctrinal understanding, and that most of the members that are comfortable with the doctrine do not go to these types of websites. That is just my theory, though.

Elphaba, I actually agree with you. I like directness (is this a surprise to any of you?) I think that is actually why this thread was sooooooo annoying to me, and a lot of threads on here are annoying. I don't agree with people that have apostacized from the church, but I don't understand how that is so offensive to say. If you think of homosexuality in a different way that the LDS church, that is actually completely fine by me. If you want to express why you disagree with the LDS church, that is fine too. But it is annoying to me personally to have a discussion where the LDS people are pretending to just chat and see each other's views, when it is obvious to me that are just trying to convert through a polite debate. The non-LDS people, some of them on each side of this, were annoying me because they were using quotes from MY church to explain their religious beliefs, that are not in line with the church. I would have rather heard quotes from the Bible or from a psychologist or whatever without the LDS stuff attached for the non-LDS, and then from the LDS, a little more honesty and awesomeness like me, on how I don't really believe it but I still accept you as a human being and don't hate you. That is all I have been trying to say this entire time. If you think SSA is all fine and dandy with the LDS church, it is not. Acting on it and entertaining the thoughts are viewed as a sin, although with compassion. Other churches and people within the LDS church may disagree for whatever reason, but just come clean and admit that you don't agree with the LDS church doctrine if you don't. Don't try to spin it to support your beliefs. This is why I said I don't quote scriptures or condemn my gay friends and family members. I let them live their lifestyle without a word from me unless they ask. Nuff said.

Suzie says: But why Adomini? Why is it that the perception is that we are free to question and welcome to do so by the GA and yet the local leadership seem to discourage it? I think most of the time we follow things based on tradition or church culture but not necessarily doctrinal. Hi Suzie. Everyone that I know closely, except for gay friends and family, that have left the church, have all done it because they thought their bishop was a jerk. The gay friend left because they are living openly homosexual lifestyle. The others were mad at their bishops and stopped going to church in a huff. I know what one of the bishops did to make my boss mad, and he was legitimately rude and petty to them. And look at them now. They haven't been members for the past 20 years because they lost their testimony and all the blessings of church membership over some arguments with their bishop over their snowblowers, yes snowblowers. The point is to have faith in and sustain your local and higher leaders, prayerfully and humbly. There is no Kool-aid drinking encouraged, but there is humility and love. There is no such thing as a bishop who hasn't said or done something to offend someone. Our bishop rearranged some of how they ran sacrament meeting and then the area authority corrected him so he changed. So what? He had an idea that he thought was good, and it wasn't. It's no big deal. They are just human with a huge burden and don't need people calling them on everything. Unless they are asking you blatantly to do something against doctrine, just let them be, in my opinion, and trust in the mantle of the priesthood.

Finrock et al, I should be kind, gentle, and persuasive! What the heck! Where's the fun in that. I'll tell you what is funner - boot camp. Who's gentle and persuasive at boot camp? Geez, are you trying to make me into a flabby little girl? Ahhh, Elphaba. You can hold my clipboard because I think you are starting to get me. The rest of you need some more physical exertion. What are you trying to do to me here? There is no need for these bad feelings? There is a difference between being direct and passionate, and rude and unloving. Now if I thought you were a bunch of worthless losers, I wouldn't even bother with ya! GaySaint, where are you getting these personal attacks from and lack of sympathy? Not getting you right now.

Elphaba, Elgama, GaySaint, JohnnyRudick, Seminarysnoozer, Suzie, Thank you for telling me the world is not boot camp and that truth is not something I should not defend because of forum rules. I should be more polite and listen with great enthusiam and compassion to stories of personal apostacy. Thank you for reminding me that the doctrine is open to personal opinions and that the truth for each of us is relative according to our own experiences. I think Korihor and Sherem were unfairly treated by crazy military types like me. They should have been given more of a voice, especially with church members, and should have been shown more compassion. Did you drop and give me 10? I don't think so! Drop and give me 50! After you do that, please take your Book of Mormon and hold it straight up over your head for 1/2 hour without bending your arms (great exercise!) From CrazyPotatoArmyLady

Thank you Kenny. When I was in Great Britain, I was surprised by how much more courteous and polite the UK people are, compared to Americans. It is true- the stereotypes that British speak more quietly and seem to have more manners in general, and Americans tend to be louder and more rude (GENERALIZATION, I KNOW). Here are some quotes from President Brigham Young on personal apostacy: When we find fault with Church leaders, we begin to separate ourselves from the Church. Whenever there is a disposition manifested in any of the members of this Church to question the right of the President of the whole Church to direct in all things, you see manifested evidences of apostasy—of a spirit which, if encouraged, will lead to a separation from the Church and to final destruction; wherever there is a disposition to operate against any legally appointed officer of this Kingdom, no matter in what capacity he is called to act, if persisted in, it will be followed by the same results; they will “walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, self-willed; they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities” [see 2 Peter 2:10] (DBY, 83). When a man begins to find fault, inquiring in regard to this, that, and the other, saying, “Does this or that look as though the Lord dictated it?” you may know that that person has more or less of the spirit of apostasy. Every man in this Kingdom, or upon the face of the earth, who is seeking with all his heart to save himself, has as much to do as he can conveniently attend to, without calling in question that which does not belong to him. If he succeeds in saving himself, it has well occupied his time and attention. See to it that you are right yourselves; see that sins and folly do not manifest themselves with the rising sun (DBY, 83). One of the first steps to apostasy is to find fault with your Bishop; and when that is done, unless repented of a second step is soon taken, and by and by the person is cut off from the Church, and that is the end of it. Will you allow yourselves to find fault with your Bishop? (DBY, 86). You hear many say, “I am a Latter-day Saint, and I never will apostatize;” “I am a Latter-day Saint, and shall be to the day of my death.” I never make such declarations, and never shall. I think I have learned that of myself I have no power, but my system is organized to increase in wisdom, knowledge, and power, getting a little here and a little there. But when I am left to myself, I have no power, and my wisdom is foolishness; then I cling close to the Lord, and I have power in his name. I think I have learned the Gospel so as to know, that in and of myself I am nothing [see Alma 26:12] (DBY, 84). I have seen many "discussions" on this forum that all apply to what President Young said. Whenever people on here are discussing doctrine, they need to be careful not to think that their logic and reasoning are safe alone. Discussions, such as the same sex attraction thread, on why homosexuals, for example, have it harder than most of us, are an opening to personal apostacy.

Questions, You just opened a door that I would never open on this forum.

Snow, That hit below the belt. Marts1 is not stupid.

Oh, enough!!!!!!! Drop and give me 20!

Obedience by fear? I fear God and also I love God. I certainly wouldn't want his wrath.

Hello Forum people, Let me give you some of my background. I am in a military family and I have a very direct style of communication. I think maybe my tone, more than my words, can come across as noncompassionate. While my heart is not made of stone, I am kind of a tough person. I have great respect for the military - my spouse and all the people that I have been around in the military seem to have common characteristics that have been instilled in them or already were there beforehand. They are very focused, intense people. If you give them a mission to accomplish, there is no complaining, no whining, no asking for special treatment, no self-pity. Even if you are in pain, you assume so are your fellow soldiers. You will accomplish your mission or give your all trying. The military, when in training, are frequently given impossible tasks or unfair treatment. This is to mess with them and see what they are made of. The best soldiers are guys who are positive, can-do, team players that can focus and forget their physical, mental, and emotional exhaustion and pain and keep going. When I hear people asking for more compassion, special treatment, reasons why the commandments don't completely apply to them, I find myself losing compassion, honestly, and saying, "Come on and accomplish your mission. We are all suffering but don't give in to excuses!" Why are soldiers trained in this way? To save their lives! There is no compassion in giving in to their excuses, whining, or complaining. There is compassion if you get shot or step on an IED. There is commisseration more than compassion. GaySaint, can I just say to you that I think if I knew you personally, there is no way I would be quoting scriptures and talks from General Authorities? I completely think you are excusing your homosexual behavior. I think you have been deceived and are asking for too much compassion. But I also think that I have been deceived about things in my life, too. I have wanted more compassion from others when it wasn't really necessary and didn't help me see how I was being deceived. I have friends and family members that are living the gay lifestyle and I have never shunned them or thought I was better than them. The reason why I am so direct with you and all is because, if this were the military, and I kind of wish it was, I would tell you to quit whining and get to work. And I would say it with your best interest at heart because I don't want you to get killed in combat. Not out of self-righteous, I am so great and your the devil-attitude. Hoo-ah! Go Army!