crazypotato

Nice spins from all of you. Again, I never said to have no love or compassion towards those with SSA. I said, to not water down the gospel into saying that it is inborn and there is no way to overcome your thoughts or feelings. Elder Oaks clearly said that your thoughts should be controlled and if not then you are sinning. Here is how the spinning works: people have feelings and inclinations that are very, very strong and cause them a lot of pain. We should have compassion towards those people and love and accept them, and here comes the spin - once a bishop I know gave bad advise, so don't be so quick to listen to your bishop. People gay bash and treat gay people like crap, so if you don't agree that we can't help it (being gay), you have no compassion, love, or kindness. Once a prophet said to have love and compassion, so let's spin it into homosexual feelings are not a sin and cannot be helped.

GaySaint, You are full of it! Quote me on saying there should be no love and compassion! You can't quote me on it. I ask you to please stop.

"We want to help these people, to strengthen them, to assist them with their problems and to help them with their difficulties. But we cannot stand idle if they indulge in immoral activity, if they try to uphold and defend and live in a so-called same-sex marriage situation. To permit such would be to make light of the very serious and sacred foundation of God-sanctioned marriage and its very purpose, the rearing of families" (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, Nov. 1998, 71). In "Same Gender Attraction", Elder Dallin H Oaks (Ensign Oct 1995) says: Because Satan desires that “all men might be miserable like unto himself” (2 Ne. 2:27), his most strenuous efforts are directed at encouraging those choices and actions that will thwart God’s plan for his children. He seeks to undermine the principle of individual accountability, to persuade us to misuse our sacred powers of procreation, to discourage marriage and childbearing by worthy men and women, and to confuse what it means to be male or female. The First Presidency has declared that “there is a distinction between [1] immoral thoughts and feelings and [2] participating in either immoral heterosexual or any homosexual behavior.” 4 Although immoral thoughts are less serious than immoral behavior, such thoughts also need to be resisted and repented of because we know that “our thoughts will also condemn us” (Alma 12:14). Immoral thoughts (and the less serious feelings that lead to them) can bring about behavior that is sinful. Applying the First Presidency’s distinction to the question of same-sex relationships, we should distinguish between (1) homosexual (or lesbian) “thoughts and feelings” (which should be resisted and redirected), and (2) “homosexual behavior” (which is a serious sin). We should note that the words homosexual, lesbian, and gay are adjectives to describe particular thoughts, feelings, or behaviors. We should refrain from using these words as nouns to identify particular conditions or specific persons. Our religious doctrine dictates this usage. It is wrong to use these words to denote a condition, because this implies that a person is consigned by birth to a circumstance in which he or she has no choice in respect to the critically important matter of sexual behavior. Feelings are another matter. Some kinds of feelings seem to be inborn. Others are traceable to mortal experiences. Still other feelings seem to be acquired from a complex interaction of “nature and nurture.” All of us have some feelings we did not choose, but the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we still have the power to resist and reform our feelings (as needed) and to assure that they do not lead us to entertain inappropriate thoughts or to engage in sinful behavior. Satan would like us to believe that we are not responsible in this life. That is the result he tried to achieve by his contest in the pre-existence. A person who insists that he is not responsible for the exercise of his free agency because he was ‘born that way’ is trying to ignore the outcome of the War in Heaven. We are responsible, and if we argue otherwise, our efforts become part of the propaganda effort of the Adversary. “Individual responsibility is a law of life. It applies in the law of man and the law of God. Society holds people responsible to control their impulses so we can live in a civilized society. God holds his children responsible to control their impulses in order that they can keep his commandments and realize their eternal destiny. The law does not excuse the short-tempered man who surrenders to his impulse to pull a trigger on his tormentor, or the greedy man who surrenders to his impulse to steal, or the pedophile who surrenders to his impulse to satisfy his sexual urges with children. … “There is much we do not know about the extent of freedom we have in view of the various thorns in the flesh that afflict us in mortality. But this much we do know; we all have our free agency and God holds us accountable for the way we use it in thought and deed. That is fundamental.” 7 End of quotes. Do you see how we are to "control our thoughts" not just our behavior? And we have free agency to do so?

WillowtheWhisp, Please be careful when asking for advice that you will still listen to your bishop over anonymous forum users. It sounds like you will, but I just worry. There are so many good, kind, righteous people that have accepted homosexuality as something inborn that cannot be changed, that are on these forums. I strongly believe that our prophets are not stupid. Just because they don't particularly struggle with SSA does not mean that they are not enlightened enough about homosexuality. The watered down explanations of the gospel, mixed with reasons why homosexuality is inborn, mixed with advice to not always listen to your bishop, mixed with advice that people have had personal revelations that for themselves go against what our prophets have said about homosexuality, mixed with the emphasis on loving and having compassion for homosexuals are all ways that Satan deceives good people. These are all ideas that have been introduced into this thread and I am absolutely saddened by them. I remember reading a talk in the Ensign that said that the majority of us humans, if we really had a way to have a full knowledge of Christ, would no longer have any desire to sin. This tells me that most of us sinners are just don't know Christ well enough yet, that we are not bad people, but that we are lacking full knowledge. Your daughter is young and being deceived. Of course you need to love her and not accept her sinful behavior as okay. Keep talking to your bishop and going to the temple for inspiration and loving your daughter. You sound like a great mom!

I am surprised there is even a thread about this and that there are so many people who struggle with this. Even the elect can be deceived and Pres Monson will not deceive us. If you don't believe this then I hope you have no temple recommend. Not that I am perfect, but I do have a testimony.

Have you tried seeing an acupuncturist? I really like Chinese medicine because they look at your diet and your entire bodily systems and how they relate to each other, but they also work with Western medicine. Chinese medicine is great for helping balance out your hormones and systems in your body. Also, Qi Gong is great for depression. It is deep, slow breathing exercises along with self-hypnosis, concentration exercises that really work. I have tried them and they are very relaxing and really can reduce anxiety and depression. There are no side effects or harmful drugs in your system. Try Matthew Cohen's Fire and Water DVD. It is QiGong for anxiety or depression. It is probably in your library or you could be a used DVD if you don't have much money. Also, a lady in my ward has bipolar disorder. She has struggled with trying many different medications over the years and finally found that weight lifting greatly eases her symptoms. Other forms of exercise did not help nearly as much.

Hi Chami, Sometimes when people first join the church, the devil is angry and makes a lot of trouble in their lives. He wants you to doubt God so that you will stop praying, going to church, reading the scriptures. He wants you to forget the Holy Ghost and your testimony. I think it would be great to get a blessing from your bishop. Have faith. The Lord loves you but sometimes it is hard because he does things in his own time and in his own way. May God bless you!

Hi MacGirl, I believe that bishops are human beings and can make mistakes, but you can't automatically dismiss what he is saying as a bunch of bunk. I carefully read what you wrote. From my understanding, your husband didn't have an affair until you separated, but you are still legally married. I think the bishop may have said that your husband sinned by cheating on you before the divorce was final, and when he said he wasn't welcome back without you by his side, he is referring to disfellowshipping or a disciplinary action. When someone breaks a major commandment (adultery), especially if they don't seem to feel guilty about it or are not trying to repair their marriage, a bishop is well in his rights to tell that person that they could be disfellowshipped or excommunicated from the church. This is common for unrepentant people and also is done sometimes for people that are trying to repent. They can be exed and then if they show that they are sorry and take steps to repent, they can be re-baptized back into the church. Divorce is not completely wrong, but should be avoided at most costs. If you guys can't stand each other, I would ask, why? Is it because there is abuse or sick addictions or lots of adultery? Then I can see divorce. If it is communication conflicts, personality conflicts, arguments, power struggles, etc, then from our church's viewpoint, you should both repent and work on the marriage. If your husband is hesitant, maybe his conscience is a bit tweaked over the affair, and maybe rather than blaming himself, he is taking his anger out on your bishop. Whether you guys are active or not, the fact that your husband went to talk to the bishop tells me that he may still believe in the church.

And I just wanted to add some compassion for Miranc8 and Baver3 (I think those are their screen names). They had to divorce their husbands because their husbands were not repenting and not trying. Your husband seems to be trying to repent, and you choose to stay with him. Your situations are different. I would never suggest to Miranc8 or Baver3 to just trust and love their cheating, unrepentant spouses (although I am sure that is what they both tried to do for years). They tried and it was one-sided. But you have a spouse that is wanting to repent and try, so you do need to try and love him, but not romantically right now. When I say love, I mean in a more generic sense. Look at him like a man with weaknesses that made big mistakes, and realize that everyone is a person with weaknesses that makes mistakes and that we all hurt people. Try and think of him as potential, see him as better than he is now, because that is how the Lord sees all of us. Take care.

crazy potatoe , i guet what ur saying bt i dont get it at the same time !!!!!!! its so frustrating !!!!!! before all this happend i trusted my husband completely - and now i dont ----- i loved him w all my heart and now i dont as much ------ so are u saying this is my fault that all i need to do is love him and trust him - even if he doent deserve it ????????? dosent he has to earn his trust back and earn the love ?? Wow, how did you get that from what I said? That's okay. Maybe I miscommunicated. I never said to trust him. I remember you saying that you are choosing to stay with your husband and work on your marriage with him. Since that is your decision, based on your own prayer and personal revelation, then you do need to try and love your husband. You don't have to feel madly in love with him and trust him, but try not to see him as only a PA. I am sure that he must have some good qualities, or even some good potential qualities. If you look for the good in him and love him as a fellow human being, if not romantically, then you are being Christlike. Being Christlike will help you to heal and will help your husband to not feel like a worthless loser. You have no reason to trust him, so don't try. Focus on Christ as your best friend, not your spouse. One day, maybe your spouse will be your best friend for now. I am suggesting these techniques to you from my own marital experience, from reading a 12-step recovery book, and from another book I read on marriages. These books all helped me to get through some ugly times in my marriage. I am suggesting these things to help you help yourself, so that you can be comforted through the atonement. It's Chet sounds like he is going through a divorce right now and in so much pain. He is coming from a divorce and kids, and I think he has been trying to tell you to lean on a counselor or good friends instead of your spouse, that you were used to leaning on. That is how he is coping, it sounds. I am saying similar- don't lean on your spouse emotionally right now. He can't comfort you. Lean on the Lord and others.

Saturn, I completely agree with you. I was even asked by a head moderator to get off of this thread if I did not think a "debate" or "discussion" was useful. To keep my opinions to myself once they were stated. But then others go on and off with scientific and personal theories, that just leads to subtle contention, hurt feelings, judgements. It opens the door for Satan to wedge in and start slowly entering his lies mixed with the scriptures. I cannot see the value in it. People can find the same types of debates anywhere on the internet. I feel that if someone is struggling with SSA or any other problem and wants to come to a forum, it would be ideal if they are given comfort and hope and compassion rather than theories and speculation that directly conflict what our prophets have said. The logic and science of mankind is flawed. The only way to know the truth is to go to God and to learn more about the atonement. To focus on our Savior and how he bled from every pore and suffered for our afflictions and pains, to focus on hope in Christ. We were commanded to be perfect. And then we were created with weaknesses. It is absolutely impossible for us to be perfect or overcome our sins, weaknesses, pains, and temptations without the Savior. Focus on the Savior in more of your thoughts to find comfort in your life. You are loved and cherished by him.

Of course I never meant to imply that you are using us to make your decisions and I never thought so. I was only trying to emphasize the reality of revelation being so accessible in the temple. And advice from a collective group of people, even those who are well-intentioned, can actually sometimes be completely the wrong way for a person to go. I have been in a place in my life where everyone was telling me - bishop, family members, friends, counselors, to divorce my spouse. Everyone except the Holy Ghost. It left me feeling very, very, very confused for years, but I hung on to the Holy Ghost. Looking back, the advice wasn't bad, the God knows and sees all and sometimes gives us answers that don't make sense at the time.

Bubbaman, LDS.net is just of group of strangers, a lot who happen to be LDS. I recommend you go to the temple if you are endowed, and after a session, sit and ponder and pray in the Celestial room. If you have faith that God will answer your prayer, sit in there and pray about your divorce. You may even feel your father in there with you. The Lord with answer your prayers in the Celestial room more clearly than anywhere else. Sit and give him some time. This has ALWAYS worked for me. You may have to frame your questions smaller than, "Should I get a divorce" to "is it okay for me to take my kids and I away from my alcoholic wife, or should I stay with her for a while?" I find that in this forums, there are different experiences and thoughts that may help you, and people that may cause you to doubt. Go to God. We all can be deceived. And as far as the person with freaky nightmares of sleep paralysis, science explains all of that away. But for those who have been through it and have seen the evil spirit in their room, and have cast the spirit out in the name of Jesus Christ, we don't need science or skeptics to tell us we were wrong. It happens to lots of people and I can testify that it is real. There is sleep paralysis, but it is not the same as that creepy, dark presence.

I'm not sure what it was that caused it or what I lost faith in? As I said, I moved away from my family, there was no one here with me, I had no relatives no close friends nothing, just someone who continually goes on about my life unoticed an uncared for besides my family, only... they are on the other side of the country, I guess that impacted on me quite a bit, I never really thought of how big an impact it was, I always thought I was quite indipendent, but I was wrong. I had to ask for lifts every week to church, and I felt like a burden, no one would ever offer, they knew I had no other way of getting to church, but no one would bother. I felt like the outcast... I still do in a way even though I don't have to ask for lifts anymore as I now have my own car here. Hi Daenvigiell, Maybe what we have going on here is a little bit of depression mixed with not a strong or no testimony because you moved away and don't have a big support system in your new ward. Sometimes people are depressed without realizing it. Like you are saying that you should feel the spirit but you don't. You should be more independent but you're not. People should call you and ask if you need a ride to church but they arent'. Maybe you are used to being around your friends and family and lots of support, and now you are far away without that. If you have a little mild depression going on, that will block the Holy Ghost. For me, the Holy Ghost leaves when I feel sorry for myself or think negative thoughts. I pray to God to lift me out and he doesn't and I still don't feel the Holy Ghost. But if I actively try to get out the the depression mode by replacing those those with gratitude and doing stuff that is uplifting, I start to feel the Spirit again. The Spirit for me is sometimes just a vague sense of peace, not anything strong. Other times it is more of words in my mind or a zing in my body, but usually just a subtle feeling. If I read the Book of Mormon and think, is this book even true? I can't feel the Spirit. If I go to the topical guide and pick out a topic, then look up the scriptures and write down my thoughts, then I may or may not feel the Spirit, depending on lots of things. It all starts with where your thoughts are. You sound a little down, which is normal. You sound young, too. Did you know that Brigham Young took a looooonnnng time to gain a testimony of our church? Take care!

I say don't go to LDS.net for your answer on this. Go with your gut feeling. Our ancestors sometimes can communicate with us from the other side. I have had dreams that meant something. Dreams can be a form of personal revelation. My husband was warned in a dream one time. Nonsense dreams that you do or don't remember are one thing. Dreams where you are talking to a deceased relative are entirely different.

I think you are totally normal. But remember that doubt and faith cannot exist at the same time. You can't just make yourself believe. Instead you have to start with a hope to find the truth. Like is it in Moroni where he talks about faith as being the size of a mustard seed, but it starts with hope. If your branch pres gave you a temporary recommend, I think you should use it out of curiousity, if anything else, to see if you feel the spirit in the temple. It is easier, I believe, for everyone to feel the spirit in the temple. We don't know you or your heart. You may have never had a testimony, like you said, but you could have and if you aren't constantly feeding your spirit, your testimony can get weak and die. Anyway, everyone goes through times where the Spirit is strong and then other times where we can't feel it and don't know why, and have to figure out why.

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord. 21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food. 22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God. 23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food? 24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul. 25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow. Please, stop murmuring exceedingly because of your afflictions. It does not help you or anyone else. Was the Lord constantly apologizing to Laman and Lemuel for their afflictions and telling them that they were right, it wasn't fair? Or did he still expect them to do what he commanded? The homosexual agenda has been pushed on our society in the name of tolerance, compassion, love, and not being a homophobe. Your life is not exceptionally more difficult than others. Look to the scriptures and the prophets for direction. Compassion doesn't equal tolerance, acceptance, and special circumstances. The Lord chastised Lehi and Sariah for murmuring against their afflictions.

Jacob 7:2-7 And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might overthrow the doctrine of Christ. 3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me. 4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil. 5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken. 6 And it came to pass that he came unto me, and on this wise did he speak unto me, saying: Brother Jacob, I have sought much opportunity that I might speak unto you; for I have heard and also know that thou goest about much, preaching that which ye call the gospel, or the doctrine of Christ. 7 And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. And after this manner did Sherem contend against me. This was a "discussion" between Sherem and Jacob on doctrine. Sherem sought out Jacob to talk to him, and was trying to shake Jacob's testimony of what he knew to be true. I know that God does not approve of same-sex marriage or embrace homosexuality and I am tired of the "respectful" tone and "enlightening" discussion of this thread! This is going beyond discussion and trying to lead people into accepting homosexuality as something that we just don't get or understand the doctrine on, and they are trying to "enlighten" us as to their poor condition.

Finrock, I think you didn't get what I was saying. I wasn't asking you to defend your thread, just honestly trying to understand the value of "discussing" gospel doctrine in this type of forum. If an investigator, for example, wants to see what our beliefs are, or just someone curious about learning about our beliefs, then we tell them and explain why, they ask questions, etc. Or some person that is hurting and needs some moral support, advice or pick-me-up, I get that. But this thread feels like a debate on homosexuality. The church has a stand on it - if people don't agree then that is their right, but what is the point of discussing it?

What is the point of this thread? We are not going to agree and the longer the thread goes on, the more I wonder what exactly is the point of having these forums? I thought they were to chat a bit and discuss gospel topics, give support to each other, give advice, etc. But this thread seems to be more of a subtle debate on church doctrine and I don't see any value of believing members discussing with nonbelievers. It is reminding me of how missionaries are warned to not Bible bash with preachers because they are not looking for truth, not inviting the Holy Ghost, but just trying to convince each other that they are doctrinally correct. I understand discussing homosexuality to sympathize with people and offer suggestions on how to cope or adding points of doctrine. So for what it is worth, I firmly believe that SSA is not deserving of more sympathy that any other crappy trial people go through. Once you believe that you are in a special group, you start denying the atonement. If your heart is not in line with God and you don't want it to be, then you are denying the atonement. God can only ease your burdens if you want his will more than your own. Father Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son on an alter and he was willing to do it. We are all asked to deny ourselves and carry a cross. The Lord sacrificed himself for us. Trust in the Lord, and lean not unto thy own understanding.

Lost, Fasting and prayer together really work. This action increases your capacity to feel the Spirit. If you chose not to confess and go to the bishop, and think that everything is too hard, you will continue to not have the Holy Ghost help you. I have noticed that when I have a lack of faith and entertain discouraging thoughts, the Holy Ghost will not come and pick me up until after I pick myself up. But you can pray for someone to come into your life to help you, like a friend for moral support. Maybe someone could go with you to the bishop's office, like your best girlfriend? Even to sit outside the door or she could come in the room with you. There is nothing wrong with leaning on a friend for a while. And have you noticed that everyone on this forum has their own sins and issues? It should show you that we understand more where you are coming from. We are not a bunch of squeaky clean Mormons.

come on, Norma! You can find some normal women in your ward. There are some more tomboys with toys on the floor in their house!:)

"but in the PA recovey class it says that i am the only one who can change the way i feel ! which i undurstand but not agreen with complely i mean if it wasent for his porn addiction and infidelaty i would not feel this way -- shouldnt he have more responsability on helping restore my pace and my self esteam?" No, they are right. That is really the hard truth at first, but then it is freeing. It is freeing to know that you don't have to depend on other people to make you feel happy. The Holy Ghost gives peace and self-esteem, not other people. Your husband will never be perfect. He will always do things to disappoint you. You have to actively look for the good in him. I think the more you label yourself as the victim of a husband into PA, the more helpless you will feel as far as being happy and content. You have to not sit and think about it very often. Train your mind to focus on the good in him, but also, don't put all your efforts into the marriage and him right now. Make sure you have other positive things to focus on and think about, so that this is not the only dimension of your life. Otherwise, you will often be depressed and discouraged. Exercise, eat right, read good books, hang out with positive friends, fill your mind with light and truth. Don't watch depressing shows, read depressing books, be around other women that complain about their husbands or lives and are always feeling sorry for themselves. Focus on Christ and asking him to help you, not your husband. Let your husband work out his own repentance.

The congregation at church is full of sinners. Think of the story of the Prodigal Son and how excited his father was to have him back. Do you have a jealous, faithful brother at church? If not, then you have nothing to worry about. Ha, ha! The bishop isn't going to be shocked or repulsed by what you say. He has heard it all. His job is to help you realize the Savior's love for you, and if you need to repent, to focus on the joy of the atonement, not lecture you on how evil you have been. Your bishop may have had a colorful past, too. You never know!

I agree with Judo and the others. You are listening to Satan right now. Everything you said in your post are a bunch of depressing, discouraging thoughts that Satan uses to keep you from understanding the atonement. He loves to kick people when they are down. When you go to church next week, take a look at everyone in the congregation, and remember that a good number of them have had to confess things to the bishop - people you would never guess from the outside. Everyone in the chapel has done things that they are ashamed of. I know someone personally that was excommunicated for cheating on his wife (and 6 kids). He was truly, truly sorry, had to go through the church court. Somehow his wife saw his sincerity and forgave him and stayed, but he was miserable and embarrassed. Fast forward a few years and he was re-baptized, got a temple recommend again, and became a bishop. Everyone falls. That is why I love our Savior sooooo much! We are all nothing without the atonement, from President Monson to your Relief Society president to you. We all need the atonement equally. You are just a normal human being like the rest of us - there is nothing worse about you, you just don't know everyone else's dirty laundry. You'll be fine!