bytebear

You are correct that DNA can't prove relations, but they can squash rumors, as in the case of Fanny Alger, which is still out there, despite the child not being Smith's. No, I don;t believe the testimony of the wives of Smith. I think it was a set up to bolster the claims of Young. As did the CoC who still deny it to this day. It really is just a game of he said she said. I never said the wives weren't sealed to him. Of course they were, some were sealed after he died. Why do I believe he didn't have sex with them? Because I believe God prepares people with a lesser law before requiring a greater law. It happened with the Mosaic Law, the Word of Wisdom. Even tithing was not strongly encouraged until the 1920s. The Kirkland temple was a preparatory temple, and the full ordinances of the temple were not revealed until the Nauvoo temple was built It's a pattern. And I believe God works within such patterns.

Not quite. Utah was part of the Mexican territory when the Mormons settled in 1847. The US had no jurisdiction over Utah until 1850, and even then it was simply a territory with Young as governor, so he called the shots. National anti-bigamy laws against the Mormons weren't enacted until 1862 (Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act) and then it was simply a legal battle until 1890 when it was finally denounced by the church.

You are correct that the church fought long and hard to legitimize Young's practice with Smith's teachings. But I have yet to see any definitive proof. And the efforts of 19th century church leaders have done nothing but muddy the waters. The only evidence are affidavits from women in the church at the prodding of Young long after the death of Smith. I simply do not believe them to be truthful. And DNA testing so far, has vindicated my position.

Also that whole Jew-Christian thing falls flat. We are still Abraham-ists because we believe in the same prophet Abraham. The term Jew does not just mean a belief system, but also a lineage and heritage. But Christian is far more broad than that. If anything, the Catholics can exclude all others (except maybe the other Orthodox churches) from Christianity on the same grounds that are being use to exclude Mormons. Evangelicals are trying to copyright a term they never owned in the first place.

We travel from Southern California to SLC several times a year, so we know the I-15 route well. This last year, we decided to take the back route through Manti. It added about an hour to our trip, and we ended up droving on small country roads through cute little towns. We were so glad we did that. It was so much more beautiful than the standard freeway. And the homes and towns were just charming. The temple is absolutely beautiful, and so unique, built right into the hillside so the back of the temple view is almost at eye level. Just a beautiful building. I am so glad the freeway skipped those towns because it kept them small and rural. If you ever are taking the trip down the I-15, be sure to take the time to get off the freeway. It will be worth it.

Whoo hoo. If you need any inside tips, let me know. :)

Did you read the reference I gave earlier?

My personal belief is that Joseph Smith introduced the practice in a spiritual form before it took on a tangible form through Brigham Young. There is no proof that Smith has sex with any of his wives, and recently, some of the supposed children of Smith were proven not to be his. So, just as with many other aspects of God's plan, God sends a preparatory period prior to the full blessings of the principle.

I would love to hit every Disney park. I live very near Disneyland, and I am hooked. So I have to go to Walt Disney World, Disneyland Paris, Hong Kong Disney and Disneyland Tokyo. Of course, I will spend an extra week visiting the cities as well (well, maybe not Orlando).

I agree that that can happen, but that is why the scriptures warn of counterfeit power. Moses and the court magician are perfect examples. One is done with the power of God, the other is not. I don;t think Smith was using the power of God in his treasure hunting, but I do not think he was acting in an evil manner either. I do think he was learning a powerful lesson about a power for which he would be given the true authority to use later. God was preparing him to accept the "magical" and to learn the difference between the true power of God and the counterfeit.

I will look in the Bushman book later, and I read a very convincing article about the references to use of the seer stone with the Book of Mormon, but if you read the references carefully, there is no direct mention by anyone actually involved in the translation. It was commonly believed even by early saints, but it cannot be verified with anything but third party, post 1830 accounts.

Christianity does not exclude leaders. It's only requirement is a belief in Jesus Christ. Sure, we could say Lutherans aren't Christians because they believe in Martin Luther. Sorry, but "Christian" is not copyrighted, and as much as you want to hold to the title in exclusivity, you can't. I am perfectly content with the titles "Evangelical Christianity", "Liturgical Christianity", "Historic Christianity", 'Trinitarian Christianity" or "Creedal Christianity" but I do not accept anyone pushing someone outside the "Christian" tent because of disagreements in doctrine.

Black magic vs. folk magic. Folk magic was very common in Smith's day, and the Christians at the time felt no evil from such practices. The "evil" ramifications were stirred up again (after they had been long ignored) in the 1960s, when evangelicals started in on Rock and Roll, and all that "evil". Suddenly all ritual was evil. They ignore the Biblical ramifications of such an absolutist position, but hey, if it stirs up followers... Sure, from time to time, people used such practices as an excuse to persecute, but when Joseph Smith was "gold digging" it wasn't seen as anything but benign. - well, until Smith started the church and his opponents ran around the countryside collecting "affidavits" from his neighbors in an attempt to discredit the prophet. Witch hunt indeed. This is why I hold such "histories" with a bit of skepticism.

Polygamy is the exception to the rule. The rule of God is monogamy. But God has at times commanded some of it's leaders to practice plural marriage. This is very clearly spelled out in the Book of Mormon. The church had a choice in 1890. They could choose to rescind the commandment of God, or they could lose the church altogether. The Lord gave the choice to the church, and the church chose to end polygamy.

Historically you are in error. Smith was apparently tried, but not convicted. But then Jesus was tried, convicted and executed. Was it a secret that Smith was "glass looking?" Not really. In fact it was a common folk magic practice of the time. Bushman believed he got jobs seeking treasure because the neighbors wanted to give the Smith family a little financial help without making them beg. So, by giving Smith a few coins to "seek treasures" on their land, it kept him busy and gave the family some needed income. No one ever denied the use of seer stones. But they were used after 1830, and after the translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was translated using the interpreters given by the Lord. Clearly you didn't read, or didnt trust the reference I gave on the use of "magic" in the Bible. But it's from an independent source. You can choose to igore the facts, but they are there. Magic and "occultism" was used by men of God for Godly purposes. So clearly, the modern day notion of black magic (which really dates to about 1960) being evil and of the devil must be false, or at best misconstrued. So, use of the seer stones is not evil, and was a gift from God. You can choose to believe otherwise, but history, and the Bible prove you wrong.

It's a parody of 1950s education reels. It's quite funny.

Have you compared the scholarly credentials of both Brodie and Bushman? I admit it's been many years since I read her tripe. Brodie most definitely implies Smith was "insane" in that she felt he must have had some kind of psychedelic experience to warrant such an unshakable testimony. She was well known for her technique of leaving out important details that did not further her agenda. She gives a small amount of lip service to alternative theories, but dismisses them quickly and expands on her own theories. She wan't writing a biography, but a thesis on her own ideas. Fine, but it should be presented as such. Objectivity be damned. In your original post, you said of Brodie, "Written by a serious historian with full access to the church historical archives." Would a "serious historian" lie to gain access to those church archives, that you tout as a badge of honor and authority? What you fail to mention is that she snuck into the archives under false pretenses. Some historian. Where exactly in RSR does Bushman "say Smith "believed in spirits that lived in the surrounding hills and forests who could be appeased by certain esoteric rituals." I have read the book several times, and I don't recall that particular concession. I would love to see a citation.

Because I recognize the Holy Ghost, and as much as I would like to deny my testimony, He continues to witness to me the truth. So, I just know. and I know you can know too.

It's so hard to find an honest mechanic. I love mine. Why? Because I came in and said when my car goes in reverse, it makes a squealing noise. I came back later to pick up the car, and he said "it's just dust. We cleaned it up, no charge." They could have easily told me it would be $1000 in repairs, and I would have paid it. But instead, they got a customer for life. I am glad you have that kind of character.

Yes, I do. Because all records of him using the seer stone (please use the correct term) were recorded years or decades after the translation by third party sources. In other words, I know the sources exist with this premise, but I believe them to be misunderstood speculation. Yes, as I said, no first person account supports this assertion. I think the church takes no official position on the matter, believing it is really unimportant in the full scheme of things, but I can easily make an argument against the claim. Now a question for you. Do you agree that the Bible is filled with "mystical" practices performed by prophets of God?

Here's the deal. One way or another you will know the truth. You will stand before Christ and the Judgment bar, and you will know. But, for you to gain the blessings now as opposed to later (or never), you have to put out a spiritual effort. You must pray, with faith (your biggest stumbling block), to receive an answer from God. I wish it was as easy to accept as brainwashing. I could just drop my testimony and not accept the truth I have in my heart. But, darn it, that spiritual witness keeps coming back, and reminding me that this is God's truth, So, let the blessings come now. Don't wait.

I agree. but I disagree with the premise that one MUST have credentials in order to know the things of God. The Bible is replete with examples to the contrary.

I find it funny when people are critical of "mystical" artifacts used by Joseph Smith when the Bible is filled with similar tools. In fact, the "peepstone" may never have been used in the translation of the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon describes the "interpreters" as a kind of glasses which fit into a breast plate. Well after the translation was complete and the interpreters were returned with the plates did Parley Pratt (I think) figure out the connection with the Urim and Thummin in the Bible and they were then described and called as such. The "peep stones" more accurately called seer stones, were used in deciphering the Book of Abraham, but again, these are interpreters, not translators, so when Smith tried to decipher the alphabet, he wasn't using it to decipher the translation, but rather was taking his prophetic interpretation and trying to work backwards toward a literal translation.

Did Peter and the other apostles have fancy diplomas from religious institutions. Or did Jesus kind of make fun of those people for their learning but lacking spiritual insight.

"There's no crying in baseball"