Maxel

I LOVE this video. Although I showed it to my sister (who supports Obama and can't stand to listen to me talk current events/politics) and she said it's "definitely anti-Obama".

Bhcs: I heartily agree that the problem is more complex than the simple "freemen vs. king-men" scenario I set up earlier. I also agree that both "sides" of the modern political spectrum survive on contention and controversy. However, I think the "sides" (if we're talking about Democrats vs. Republicans) are largely an illusion. Both sides hold progressive ideologies (I like how Glenn Beck puts it- the Dems are Progressives and the Repubs are Progrssive Lites) and have largely abandoned the ideal small-yet-effectual-government principles that are embodied in the Constitution. Both sides have benefited from the bloating and corruption of the political machine; both sides are "king-men" at heart. Interestingly enough, somewhere (I don't feel like looking for it- I believe it's in the latter part of Alma) in the BofM Mormon makes the observation that those wanting a king were motivated by their own greed: the king-men wanted a king who promised them positions of power and influence. Also, the wicked lawyers of Ammonihah (the same ones who incited the people to contention) were studying how to overthrow the liberties of the Nephites. I think the two- a lust for power/money and a desire for bigger government- are connected. I think the currents of the "king-men" philosophy is rampant in Washington, but it's under the surface: we can see it manifesting itelf in the multitudes of "emergencies" that "require" government intervention (since Obma was elected, we've had nothing but a string of crises that require the government to save us from disaster). As time wears on and the denial in the mainstream media grows, the "king-men" will grow more daring. It will be an interesting battle- people like Beck and other conservative or independent news sources- make it more difficult for he government. However, if the majority of Americans are sufficiently hardened in their hearts, the "king-men" will eventually get their way.

I don't think if it were proven that Obama's not a natural-born citizen of the U.S. it will matter. Those in power don't seek to honor the Constituion anyway, and any kind of grass-roots effort to impeach him won't get anywhere because of organized media opposition. Obama's in it for the long haul- and where he's taking us is not a happy place. He's in, though- the American people chose flattering words over substantive principles, and now we're paying the price.

I dreamt that Obama was born on Krypton. Is that proof enough?

I was in 7th grade at the time. I clearly remember the conversation before home room (first hour) where a friend of mine told me that "a bomb had blown up the pentagon". I didn't belive him at first- he was kind of a nut. However, when the teacher anounced that we were going into the Social Studies classroom to watch the news, I was concerned. I remember feeling kind of numb. I wasn't worried so much about what was happening. It was horrible, yes- but I remember feeling that everything would be okay. I remember some girls crying and leaving; the teachers talking in hushed and anxious tones- but the prevailing feeling was one of stilled, silent horror.

I agree with your sentiments, Traveler. I believe I have a personalized relationship with God- I know the feeling of the Holy Ghost, I have covenanted with Christ to be His disciple, and I strive to live the commandments. I (usually) don't mind being reminded of the commandments I promised to live; lately I've been finding more joy in the subtle chastisings I receive from the Lord or authorized priesthood leaders on how I could be doing better. Not to judge, but I know some others (good friends of mine) who I used to live with who had covenanted with the Lord but were not so keen on keeping the commandments. One in particular always said that he had a personal relationship with Christ so it didn't matter if he went to Church, did his priesthood duties, etc. He said this to excuse the fact that he was inactive, didn't pay tithing, etc. (In his defense, he was a recent convert and was a good guy- just had some problems with the Church's doctrine).

Cougarfan: do you live in Utah, by any chance? I've heard some other members from Utah saying they see this in their wards; it seems to be a consequence of Mormonism being the socially 'cool' thing. I've never lived in Utah, and I haven't ever seen this as a problem no matter what kind of ward (family or YSA) I'm in. Then again, I might just have been lucky my whole life when it comes to which wards I'm attending.

You lie! Abortionists don't like guns and would never touch one to even hurt a fly! Actually, I'm not seeing anything that says an abortion activist was the one doing the killing... Did I miss it?

Is that a real butterfly?

But it's the fault of the employees. ACORN has no official policy on advising pimps and prositutes how to avoid being caught by the law. ACORN wants to better our communities- not turn them into whorish slums! [/koolaid]

I'd prefer to die around 100. This mortal realm is too depressing to be stuck in indefinitely, lol. Side note: Marshac! Where you been, friend? Good to see you!

Possibly. I was using the Book of Mormon terms to bring the comparison home for more people. To explain further:The modern day "freemen" are those who want to keep the government as close to the Constituional ideal set by the Founders. This type of government allows for the people to live their lives most unubstructed by wasteful or tyrannical government. However, it also requires more out of every citizen- being free comes at a high price (both for the soldiers who fight and die to keep us free, and the citizens who have to live wholly by their own abilities). The modern day "king-men" are those who want the government's role to be expanded so it plays more and more of a parental role (the type of government embraced by 'progressive' ideology). They prefer the government's role to be larger for a variety of reasons, but the ultimate result is a loss of many of the freedoms Americans have enjoyed for hundreds of years. The problem with expanding government is that the people need to be taxed more to maintain it, and those at the top are more susceptible to corruption because they have more power. This leads to tyranny; the kind of tyranny we continually see in corrupt monarchies (there's a reason King Mosiah said that corrupt kings cause their people to do much wickedness). Another big difference is that, as the government grows, the ability to switch leaders lessens. For instance, if the government's role continues to expand over the rest of Obama's administration as we've seen it grow in the first 6 months of it, we won't be able to hand it over to just anyone. Handing it over to a "freeman" would result in the gutting of the entire system- something those currently in power would not ever allow. Therefore, an expanding government eventually removes the possibility of the "peaceful revolution" that forms the basis of term limits. This is how I see the situation, anyway.

Wow- I was unaware Ruben Studdard had a successful career. The last thing I heard about it (which was about 6 months after he had won American Idol) was that he'd gotten much fewer record deals than Aiken- despite the automatic record deal that comes with winning Idol. Thanks for correcting me, guys. My main problem with Idol is that it's always been about personas first and talent second. It has to be- there are far too many talented people in America for the judges to possibly watch. Ultimately, it's about what will simultaneously get ratings and keep fans interested- which is one reason I think Simon has been so cruel in many of the judgings. He's a main attraction (or was in the beginning).

It's a synonym for 'inflammatory'. Incendiary

Keep going. Thanks for asking.

I think the lessons are as dumbed down as we make them. Right now in my ward the Gospel Doctrine class is absolutely excellent, and Elder's Quorrum is usually pretty good- especially when teaching from the Joseph Smith lesson manual. I think the Church is focusing on the basics because as society gets more wicked, we'll need to hear more solid fundamentals. I find no dearth of discussion about the deeper doctrines and issues facing the Church, either at Church itself or in other places (this forum, for example). The lessons may be boring, but they're spiritaully uplifting if we're in tune to the spirit- which is the primary reason for coming together to worship in the first place.

jadams- That wasn't the point of the article. At. All.

Why?

Perhaps you side with ACORN, jadams?

I think America will be ripped apart. Those who want what is right in governments ("freemen") on one side, and those wanting a 'king' to rule over them ("king-men") on the other side. I think this is inevitable. It makes me weep for my country.

Living without a job in America is better than living without a job in Mexico or any other Central America country. I don't know... I don't know the answers. I agree that we need to "dry the well", so to speak, but I don't think it'll stop people from coming. The fact is that, for all its faults and inconsistencies, America is still far more stable than any other countries to our south for a good ways. America's historical standard of freedom will still draw people to it. That's fine and well; it should- but when we can't take care of our own, it's time to temporarly stop taking on extra baggage (at least until we fix our own problems).

Snow- I apologize for my indendiary remarks. Thank you for showing patience where I did not. ANd I'm glad to know that not EVERYONE thinks I'm an idiot- at least a few people like me!

I don't know specifics. They wouldn't be secret if we knew about them, would they?However, if you want specifics: ACORN, STORM, Al Qaeda, the Taliban... There's more. ACORN isn't so secret, but it's connected to plenty of other organizations and is involved in plenty of underhanded dealings. I mentioned the Book of Mormon because it specifically says secret combinations will be among the Gentiles in the latter days. That's all the evidence I need to believe that secret combinations exist in our society.

The incentives of a superior government and better economy would still exist without the jobs. Also, they still can get healthcare here- even without insurance.

Not you. Apologies for not being sufficiently clear.I'm angry at everything tonight. I'm sorry I'm taking it out on you.