RipplecutBuddha

Humans are prone to error. We can make choices, and by virtue of that fact, we can make wrong choices, either deliberately or accidentally, in every facet of our activities during our lives. This has been true of humanity from the moment Adam and Eve exited the Garden of Eden. Unfortunately for you, Snow, this time frame easily includes every single person that ever had the responsability/opportunity to record, copy, or translate the writings of the Bible. Even though we both agree that many, if not most, of those men and women were inspired of God to do what they did, mistakes were still made. During the translation of the Book of Mormon mistakes were made. During the publication of the Book of Mormon mistakes were made, and the level of quality control during that time was many times higher than could have been possible anciently when Moses recorded Genesis-Deuteronomy. To presume that mistakes, errors, and deliberate changes weren't made in the multi-thousand year life of those writings would be desperately naive. Seriously...look at the size of that book, and then tell yourself that error-prone man got it 99% right over all those years...then we'll talk about why there's a need for over 40 different versions, editions, translations of that one set of writings. Instead of demonstrating your OP, you're begging the question of why it's even remotely possible.

I like what you said Hordak. It displays the true situation that we find ourselves in. With science, we are trying to discover truth from our own efforts, and through our own senses...both of which are easily fooled at times. With religion, we are told eternal truths that we cannot prove, yet can be demonstrated to the faithful, that have very real effects upon our lives. Neither can be known for certain, but for essentially the same reason; our wisdom and capacity for knowledge in this life is very limited. Indeed, a great deal of faith is needed to accept many current scientific theories and hypothesis. As was stated earlier, whenever there is conflict, it resides completely within the realm of our own perception of truth, not within reality itself. What I look forward to is the day we realize more unity between science and religion. It may take a while, but I'm exited for it nonetheless.

My favorite of all time: "God is dead."- Neitzche "Neitzche is dead."- God and my second favorite; The Lottery is a tax on people who failed math

This is a great thread!! I have been told repeatedly that everything we read about in the BoM has a spiritual message. I never thought to apply that to the war chapters, though. Now I gotta start over and read them with this in mind. THANKS A BUNCH!!!!! :)

Here's one for ya... "You gonna do something, or just stand there and bleed?" as well as... "You're so drunk, you're probably seeing double." "I got two guns, one for each of ya." same movie.

Cute skit. It served a purpose of getting a good laugh, and it was tastefully done. I liked it. Oh, and the bit about keeping Max on his drumkit by motorizing the stand it's on...very good!

Huh...let's see...there was my first day at the MTC...I had just put my bags in my room and headed off to lunch. Coming back I entered what I thought was the right building, but the decorations on the doors, and the ironing boards in the halls told me I was quite wrong. Thankfully a pair of very gracious (they only grinned huge I-could-eat-a-whole-pie-in-one-bite grins instead of laughing openly at me) Sisters helped me find the right building. I never got lost again. Then there was this past thanksgiving, when I got a chance to see a niece and nephew I hadn't seen since before my mission. When I saw them, I had no idea who they were, so I introduced myself as though we had never met. I soon realized why they were also smiling very broadly. They were both great about it though (I have awesome family...good genes, obviously).

Someone asked me why the Nauvoo temple has inverted five-point stars on it, or what they symbolize. I'm certain it has nothing to do with satanism or the occult, and I told them as much, but I could not think of what they do represent beyond the telestial kingdom, or even if that is correct. any help would be welcome.

I've always enjoyed discussing religious topics, and for now, this is the best site to do so. I've been to other religious forums, and I agree that they quickly become too antagonistic and patronizing to the LDS position. Soon I'll be able to add another forum to my habit (especially since MySpace has totally hit six feet below the underside of the bottom of the barrel on quality contributions. I barely go there anymore)

Okay....um.... Forums--here and Myspace (this one has far far better discussions...you know, where people actually think before they reply...) Youtube--interesting vids here and there, many funny ones, and even some gems here and there...and watching all things Dream Theater. Did I mention they're the best prog rock band ever? games--Steam Network, and Day of Defeat specifically...it's the perfect game to let loose after a bad day at work

In using the computer analogy you are assuming a God that insists upon ultimate control of every aspect of his creations. In using the seed analogy you are assuming a God that cannot exercise ultimate control of every aspect of his creations. However, both gods can be considered omnipotent and omniscient. When a father sees his child take the first steps upon a path involving recreational drug use, that father (omnipotent or not) can immediately see a dark future ahead for his child invloving crime, prison, serious health issues, or even death. The simple fact that a loving, caring parent can see that future does not mean that it absolutely must happen. The same loving father could also see an immeditate turn from that path, or a long difficult road of recovery. In giving us the ability to choose right and wrong, god deliberately gave us the power to fail. He gave us the ability to become evil because it has to be our choice, not his. We cannot reach our full potential without learning the essential ability of making good choices consistently. Think for a minute...what infant learned to walk without falling several times in early attempts? What musician learned an instrument without hitting countless wrong notes in the process? Name an artist that never made a painting or sculpture they would have liked to do differently, or forgotten altogether? Mistakes and failure are key to human success. Without the risk of failure, there is no impetus for success. If it doesn't matter, why bother trying to be better? The fact is that it does matter because we have within ourselves a potential we cannot but barely imagine. We cannot reach that potential without understanding the reality of right and wrong, or without understanding the importance of choosing right over wrong. we cannot gain that understanding without being first exposed to evil, to understand what it is, and why it is not the correct choice. We must understand evil. We must understand failure. That is key to avoiding both and becoming stronger in spite of our own weaknesses.

If you're right, then we as humans have absolutely no responsibility at all for any of our actions. If you're right, then there is no such thing as justice. If we can simply point to God and say...'Hey, it's your fault...you let this be possible', then any child can say the exact same thing to their parents, no matter the offense they commit. Think of it...that means Hitler, Dahmer, Gacy,Hussein...all of them can simply point to their parents and say "hey, don't look at me...it's their fault they didn't stop me." Such a line of thinking is merely a cop-out in order to avoid responsibility for one's actions.

We ought to always be willing to live the law of consecration. God has given us everything we have, could want, or think of, including the air we breathe. If He were to ask us to give it to someone else so they could use it, who would we be to tell him 'no'? the fact that we struggle now with the law of tithing shows how patient he is with us in even giving that law. In other words he wants us to be willing to give up everything if necessary, yet he'll settle for 10%...and even then we can't quite keep that one all the time.

For my part, I have no issue with accepting this as true. It makes sense to me, and it fits well within what I accept as gospel truth. However, as Vort has stated, there is nothing at all in the scriptures that states any of this in any way. Speculation can be fun, but it can also be dangerous to our faith and testimonies. There are plenty of issues within the scriptures that we have yet to deal with before tackling the idea of whether or not God worhships another God. One of the major problems with speculation is that it leads us 'beyond the mark' of what the point of the gospel is. We'll know the answer to this, and many other questions like it soon enough. Let's focus on being worthy to find out for ourselves.

Also, to others that may be wondering themselves...pray about it. God will certainly let you know if you're ready. Of all the people that want us in the temple, God is at the head of the line. If after serious and humble prayer you still feel you're ready to enter the temple, feel the confidence inside yourself knowing that God is ready to meet with you there.

According to LDS theology God did create Satan, but he did not make satan evil; that happened due to Satan's choices. In the car example, I specifically stated a man that was working on his own car; not a shady mechanic looking for some extra dollars. Here again, in the framework of a God that creates everything around himself, why would he allow conflict? It would follow greater reason to simply make things the way he wants them without having to deal with conflict at all. Ask yourself this...you want cookies...you want to make them yourself. Are you going to go through the steps of making cookies and baking them in the best manner, or are you going to get halfway, then suddenly add three cups of salt to the dough?

That's just it...God did create everything in a state of incorruption. It was Adam and Eve partaking of the forbidden fruit that brought everything into a state of corruption. God cannot create corruption, but in order to give birth, the body has to be capable of change. If a body is in a state of incorruption, then it cannot change. Eve could not bear children while in the Garden. Adam and Eve had to partake of the fruit in order to 'multiply and replenish the earth' as God commanded them. God did not create corruption, but he created a situation where corruption could be introduced without his direct actions.

it wouldn't surprise me at all, I don't see why not, It's possible, I believe it's eternal, not nearly as old as the universe, not completely, several are, not really...men have been wrong before...

Waterfalls - TLC

Hmm.... some that I've used over the years; Holy McWallakiesters!! Idiot.... Well, paint me gold and call me Oscar! Then there's always the Yosemite Sam approach of simply babbling nonsense words at the top of your lungs...that's my favorite. Oh, an my mother's favorite...."Oh, wheee"

Purple... Just a funny mental image, really....

I don't think it's fair to say God promotes the existence of evil. Without evil, we would not be able to choose. Part of this life is learning how to make good choices. If we cannot choose between good and evil, right and wrong, then what's the point of learning how to choose in the first place? These are your assumptions of monotheism. The LDS idea of God is that he is but one of an eternal line of Gods; that he didn't create anything 'ex nihlio', but that he organized his creations from pre-existing matter. Because he works within a pre-existing framework of reality, he did not create evil, nor did he create good; these things have always existed. Then why does the Biblical God seem to follow laws? How does being obedient to law negate omnipotence? Just because you follow an ordered existence doesn't mean you can't be omnipotent. Also, LDS doctrines have plenty of room for other Gods to exist; we simply are forbidden from worshipping them. I'm not sure I get what the last paragraph said, lemme read it again...Ah, you're sticking to the idea that God literally created everything himself from an empty void. In that model, you'd be correct. On the other hand, that is not what LDS theology teaches, nor does the bible say anything like it. Saying that God actively supports evil, that he created it deliberately, is the the same as saying that God deliberately established something he'd have to fight against; something that would approach the ability to unravel everything he was working for. It's similar to the idea of a man beginning to work on his car, only to deliberately break something else on the vehicle while he was making the initial repairs. Why would any intelligent being do that much less a God?

Wow...this thread has done better than I thought it would. Thanks for the teriffic comments! keep 'em coming.

If you're in the midwest, go to The Steak House in Lincoln NE. Hawaii...never been there, but I'm sure you'll find a good place. As far as the money...is Monopoly currency acceptable?

Oh, sure...just when I was starting to feel good about myself...did you talk to my ex-wife?