Jim108

Thats cool

Hey, bytebear, thanks for this post. I think I will pick up a copy. You know, I think most of this divide is posturing. It realy is silly. To Justice, I live in the State of Utah. So getting to a service is real easy.

I never said anything was bad. Where did that come from. I just believe Jesus, he said believe in him and be saved. I am saved. Look, either you believe it or not. I am saved because Jesus said so.

I agree with you and I am sure there are some chirstians that believe that (if they are true christians) but I do not know of any. I believe that they are very few in number. Just as I am sure you have members in your church who are just dotting "I"'s and crossing "T"'s. We all have some members in our church who, for some reason, have not seen the light. But, believe me when I tell you that that is not the mainstream christian belief. Have you been to a church service other than an LDS service? It might be a good idea if you have not. I would also like to visit an LDS service. It would be good for me. Would they welcome an outsider?

"Christians say they believe in Christ and are saved, yet they don't think they have to keep His commandments." Justice, maybe you should say "some Christians believe this way". I do not know how you have come to this conclusion, but I can tell you the ones that I know do not believe this. It is a very wrong conclusion you have made and it is rude to the main stream Christian. Just as there are misconceptions about Mormonism, I can see that you have misconceptions about what you call "Christians" I have an open ear to hear about your view. You need to do the same. We need to understand each other with the best information. We need to love and understand each other.

Those of us who are saved will not be judged as your name will be in the book of life.

"...they don't take the time to read the scriptures and learn for themselves." Justice, your post are always well written and thought out. I have this to add. You can take scholars from both sides of this fence and come out with polarizing views. The Elders papers I have read from the LDS. ORG site are very well thought out and make a lot of sense. You can read from Billy Graham's writings and get an opposite view that is also well thought and supported. Just because your view is different, does not mean you are not studied in the subject. So where do we go from here. My suggestion is to agree to disagree, love each other, respect each other and to forgive each other. Let Jesus live through us and may we all agree that Jesus is the way. One day we will all know the answers.

OK, I just read a little angst in Snows post. Snow, I love you, but I do not understand you. I learned a lot from this post. I am blessed. The glory is Gods.

Why are you so angry. I only wanted to have something explained. The members here did a very good job of it. I thanked them for it. I will try to explain it better. When I first read what Elder Oaks wrote, I had an issue with the part that you must keep the commandments. So, I thought, do the LDS members keep the commandments? So, I asked the question. ....and now I understand it from Elder Oaks point of view and I agree with it. Snow, we must be able to have a conversation with love so that we can better understand each other. Have love in your heart. ....and yes, we are all wretched and it is only by the blood of Jesus that we can be cleaned. Thank You Jesus.

OK good luck with it. I am a supporter of being ready for the future. My family has taken the LDS lead and have started getting prepared for what may come. I have a ranch that is bordered by LDS land owners and we get along very well. They have welcomed me and we are like a family. We are a family. We watch over each other and what is mine is theirs and vice versa. It is a very nice situation. This is one of the reasons I have been on this site. To learn about my neighbors religion.

I know your temples are important to you, but for me, I am more interested in the temple in your heart than any building.

I have check out your web site and I have a few question. 1. Do you plan to susceed from the USA? 2. Your council of fifty souds like an extension of the LDS church. Is that true and if so, what about all the non LDS living in your borders. Will they be allowed to be members of the council of fifty? 3. Will all people in your borders be allowed to hold the new currency? 4. Is the Nauvoo legion a military group? 5. What about seperation of church and state? Lots to think about here.

...."someday there will be an political Kingdom of God and that those ordained by God will be the leaders of that organization." I agree, the leaders name will be........Jesus.

Pam, I am not LDS, as all of you know. I have grown and learned much in the last six weeks to better understand. I have heard all of the negetive and unloving things that have been said about your religion and I have learned that it is BUNK. Most of my beliefs are in line with what you believe. Pam, I am more that OK with the explanations given, as they are real and from the heart and made with love. No, I do not agree with all the LDS ways, but that is OK. I know that the most important part is that you love Jesus and your church's works bring people to Jesus. ...and you know what, is there really anything more important than that. Lets live what Jesus taught us. Lets love each other. Lets forgive each other. You are my brothers and sisters in Christ. That is a very good thing.

The part that I thought Elder Oaks was not literal is the part about keeping the commandments. When I first read this, the first thing that came to my mind was that this is not possible. I know I can not keep the commandments. I try, but I fail. Thanks to some help from my LDS friends I was able to better understand what Elder Oaks was trying to say. I now better understand from his perspective. Is that OK Pam?

"Are you perfect Jim?" No Snow, I am wretched.

"...for some reason, my bishop never thought I was worthy enough. " You are worthy. Maybe you missunderstood your bishop. All are worthy with Jesus. Ask Him to walk with you and you will feel His love. Do not let one person disrupt your walk with God. My suggestion, read the gospels again and listen to what Jesus wants you to know. If you know of some LDS scripture with quotes from Jesus then read them too. It is all about Jesus. Listen to Him. God Bless, Jim

I never win, so by not gambling I am a winner.

I guess my point with starting this post is this: when Elder Oaks made comment of keeping the commandments he was not literal. None of us can keep them. We all need Jesus to make us worthy. My take is this. When I was saved and received the spirit I knew that a road was ahead of me that includes works. Works that I am glad to do. Faith without works is dead and our works are an extension of our faith. We are saved by grace and our works are a direct indication of our faith. This makes sense to me.

Skippy, I disagree, thoughts can be sin. In Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court". Also Matthew 5:28 "but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart". When you are angry with another, you kill them in your thoughts. I think in prior posts you and I are guilty of this. It is not OK to take one look at a woman as long as it is just one look. You see, I do not think any of us are capable of living up to the Law. It is just not possible. We need Jesus. Without Him we are lost. Have you ever told a lie? Have you been angry? Have you used foul language? Do you covet? Have you ever stolen anything? Do you have thoughts of lust? Do you masturbate? (a normal sexual function for men and women) Do you keep the sabbath? If your car gets stuck in the mud would you get it out? If your answer is yes to any of the above, as it is for me, then you have not kept the commandments. I do not think anyone (except Jesus) can live by these rules 100%. But, we try, we need to try, but we fail, we repent, we try again and so on.....

I have never met anyone who has been able to obey the commandments. Do you really mean that or do you mean that you try your best to obey them. I don't think I can go a week without some kind of violation. Maybe, your view on what it is to obey is different than mine. For example, when I watch TV and a beautiful girl is on, BOOM, I am guilty of lusting ( I think this one is the hardest for men, but women do it too.) When I get mad at a fellow driver on the road, BOOM, I am guilty of killing him in my thoughts. I have a hard time keeping Jesus first in my thoughts at all times and I work on the sabath and I do that and this, Guilty I am. Do any of you have better success? I try, but I fail. ...and I repent.

I understand your position. The cross to you is nothing more than wood nailed together. For the most part, you are right. But, to the christian, LDS included, it has a deeper meaning....and it is the deeper meaning that we are talking about here. When a christian wears the cross he is expressing that meaning and not the wood shape. I really do think we are on the same page here.

In another thread one of you were kind enough to post a link to Elder Dallin H. Oaks comments on being saved. It compares the traditional Christian line of thought with the LDS thought. I have a question for the LDS members. About on third of the way down, Elder Oaks says this, "....And what is "all we can do"? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end." My question is this, do you keep the commandments? Here is the URL link LDS.org - Ensign Article - Have You Been Saved?

Johnny, let me reprase my post. I Cor 1:18 "For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" Johnny, your argument is not with me. It is with Paul. Good Luck

Skippy, thanks for the link. I have read it. There is a lot to study in this one statement and before I comment on it I need to look at it and the references it makes. I guess this statement you posted sums it up best from the LDS view and it is what I was looking for. Thanks again, Jim