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Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

God is the only one who says eventually when one will be written-off. You are not God. Besides, IHMO, I see more of an antagonistic spirit coming from someone who calls another a troll and insincere, accusing and judging someone for something they already apologized for and many such things. This I have not done to you or anybody else. So why would you imply to Justice that I am antagonistic, insincere, and a waste of time? I really don't see any redemptive or hopeful possibilities in such comments as these. Remember, you can tell more about a person from what they say about others than what others say about them.

I believe you are sincere. I don't understand why it took you so long to understand what I was saying about faith and works especially when Bro. Rudick understood and explained it. Again I apologize for being condescending with you, but please understand I have experience deception for only wanting to sincerely serve God. I believe I went through this for a reason. I don't need for anyone to explain to me what that reason was because God has already shown me. One of the things I did to get out was to put all the pros on one side of a paper and all the cons on the other side regarding the group I was in. I came up with more cons, but that wasn't enough to have me leave the group. I would constantly justify and make excuses for what didn't line up. I guess I did that because I was already hook on the group and interrelationships play a role of making the bondage stick. Only God can show us the deception in our lives. We cannot see it without His intervention. So now I look at all the pros and cons of everything. It is a lot easier for me to see objectively about any group this way, but once I join, I might see subjectively and that can hinder spiritual clarity. I really don't believe in arguing. What good does it do to win a battle and lose the war? If you don't mind, however, I will continue the study of LDS doctrine, but I will compare and contrast it against the Bible. I will post my findings, and you can address them for me. I don't need to tell you that if there is a clash, I trust the ancient written word more, because God does not change but the times do. By the way, you are a 100% right about how strange and far-fetched a restored Gospel sounds especially God and Jesus Christ appearing to man in 1820? Most of modern Christianity sees this as a direct contradiction to the way the Bible says it's going to happen in the last days. It is good you realize that. I would be one of them. In my minds eye, I believe men get visions from spiritual sources, but those sources can be impersonating Jesus and/ or God.

I don't disagree with this, but I thought the others believe differently than this. What about the other questions I had? You're bearly scratching the surface of clashing I see in the other areas. I am going to call it a night. Much study is a weariness to the flesh:banghead:

Let's look at it in context: 2 Peter 3 1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

I really appreciate your comments. I honestly am not wanting to attack anyone. I am asking questions and searching and reading cause they told me too and now I see conflicting information that I can't answer so they tell me I need an experience like Saul to see. If anyone has been the most convincing to me its been you. I see sincerity and patience.

I did not learn from the old school of the Nicene Creed who Jesus is. I learned from prayer and studying Scripture. I don't trust any organization anymore until I can verify they line up with Scripture in the essentials. I can tolerate the nonessentials. Jesus according to the Scriptures is of the same substance of the Father yet he is distinct in being the person of God the Son. I don't understand this, but I wasn't commanded too. No prophet or human being at any level understands how this possible. That is why He is God. God says He is the first and the last and Jesus says He is that too. Jesus is spiritual and physical Creator of all things according to the Bible, and God says there was no God before me nor shall there be any after me. Does that not out right clash with as man is God once was and as God is man may become? I am just supposed to brush all this stuff under the rug and pretend it is not a problem? Please don't patronize me for asking good questions that you don't have answers for!

You are patronizing me now. Jesus in the book of Mormon says He is the "Father and the Son." On the forum I am told that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. I ask will someone tell what this confusion is about? I understand this to be speaking of an Adam-God doctrine that totally clashes with the Bible and the Scriptures explanation of who God is but you say it doesn't clash. I have been trying to explain to Justice that Salvation is only by grace through faith in Jesus. Bro Rudick understood what I was trying to say and explained it, but I don't think he agrees. I said we are are saved from eternal death by grace through faith and that every other endeavour will fail. The Bible is explicitly clear that it is a gift and cannot possible be earned or worked for according what is written Ep 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. I am understanding from Justice and others that salvation by grace must be coupled with works (Laws and ordinances and a legalistic observance and requirements so in the end salvation is not really by grace, but connected to human effort invoving baptism, enduring til the end in keeping the commandments. If we can be saved that way, we don't need grace, and we could boast. This makes the difference on whether or not one gets eternal life. Can anyone one see this besides me?:eek:You don't even seem to agree with the book of Mormon, and you tell me I am not paying attention.

I welcome being blinded crippled and you name it than go the wrong way. Honestly, I would, I am not kidden. I couldn't be more serious about this. I don't want to go the wrong direction, and I don't want any going the wrong way on this forum, but I am searching stuff out, and I could never make a decision without obeying the Scriptures to try the spirit of all you say and all I read and hear from the Lord about how I should react about all that is taking place here. When I make a decision it is informed and solid as an oak! The Lord hasn't shown me that I am choosing poorly thus far. There is something terribly wrong about the way one of us is hearing or the Lord has stopped speaking or one of us is hardening our hearts. In the mean time, I am going to continue studying LDS doctrine to see if this can line up and make any spiritual sense to me. I have shown you reasons it doesn't line up to me, but I haven't been given any answers or you haven't explained anything except telling me that I am like Saul. But I don't believe I am. I think I am searching and bringing myself and others challenges with the word:disclaimer:

I AM TRYING TO STUDY SCRIPTURES AND ALL I CAN FIND ON LDS DOCTRINE AND IAM GETTING VERY CONFUSED. THE DOCTRINE DOESN'T SEEM TO LINE UP WITH THE BIBLE AND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. From what I can tell you don't believe that Jesus is the Father but you believe He is God but the book of Mormon says that Christ was the God and father of all things. Jesus in those verses says He is the "Father and the Son." And you tell me that Adam is not the God of flesh and bone you speak of but Brigham Young says he is in the journal of discourse vol. 1 pg 5 v 50. Will someone tell what this confusion is about? He is speaking of an Adam-God doctrine that totally clashes with the Bible and the Scriptures explanation of who God is. The Bible Scriptures say that God existed before the world began Jn. 17:5 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Jesus also exsisted before the World began JN 1:1,2,3,10 and Co.1:15-17. God the Son spoke the worlds into existence: Jn. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. Jesus is Savior of our immortal soul Jn: 3:16 He is our interceding priest who offered Himself a sacrifice for us! He will speak the words that will raise us from the dead 1Thes 4:13-18 Jun 5:25 25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. He is the only Judge we must face after this life: Jn 5:22 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Savation is only and only by grace through faith in Jesus. Every other endeavour will fail. It is a gift and cannot possible be earned or worked for according to the Bible Ep 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. I am understanding from Justice that salvation by grace must be coupled with works (Laws and ordinances and a legalistic observance and requirements so in the end salvation is not by grace, but connected to human effort invoving baptism, enduring til the end in keeping the commandments. If we can be saved that way, we don't need grace, and we could boast. This makes the difference on whether or not one gets eternal life.

The Scriptures for instance show God as a Spirit. "God is Spirit." The Scripture shows He is not flesh and bone. To say He is flesh and bone is like saying you believe He is Adam. That is reducing the Creator down to His creation from what I can understand from all I hear and read. Is that true? Do you believe God is Adam?

I don't have a problem with God showing us new truth, but it still must pass certain tests. It will never go against the already written revealed word. God is not the author of confusion. As I mentioned, there have been many modern day prophets. How do we obey Scripture to try the spirits to make sure it is from God? What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? Some recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible? It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible. You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well. Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word. Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God.

I do too!

I understand that you say that modern revelation was given to help with understanding problems we encounter in the Bible. Do not these types of problems exists in all three sources you use in conjunction with the Bible. Aren't there, in fact, unanswered question from those sources alone? Are we to expect another modern day revelation from another prophet in the near future to help us understand what is not clear of modern day revelation today?

We are together on that. Just because someone may not understand or agree doesn't mean they are not listening. I believe this too, but apparently it doesn't mean we believe it the sme way. I understand. I have never mentioned or promoted the Nicine Creed just my understand of the Bible. Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Jn. 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. That is a pretty good description of God. I never said that anyone is a lair. I believe you are telling me what you believe is true or you wouldn't be following and teaching it. I understand but there have been many modern day prophets. How do we obey Scripture to try the spirits to make sure it is from God? What do we have to compare modern revelation to, and how can we confirm that it is from God? You recommend prayer and then listening for an answer. G-d answers individual prayer. I believe that, but what if you can see clashes between modern revelation and the Bible? It seems pointless to pray and ask God if the clash is true or what clashes with the Bible. You would have to already believe it were to ask and get a confirmation. When the confirmation comes, how do you know that it can be trusted as well. Satan can give false signs and confirmations especially if it goes contrary to the ancient written word. Try to understand I am not trying to give you a hard time. I have been deceived and I am careful to obey Scripture by not believing every Spirit but try them to see if they be really from God. I don't want to believe Scripture as does another religion or modern day teaching until I can first verify it is from God. Does that not make sense to you? I am not!_ I think you are confusing a Burien, careful cautious spirit with stubborn._ I don't think your lying, I am most certainly am not requiring compromise from you or for you to deny anything.

I understand we are not pots (we are dust), and calling someone are troll doesn't show the love of Christ. I did look at the site, and you have explained and answered the question perfectly according to LDS doctrine; however, that leads to more questions. Why does LDS doctrine clash with the Bible? The Bible says that God says that there was no God before me nor shall there be after me. The Bible teaches that God is Spirit not flesh and bones. The Bible says there is only one God. The only flesh and bone God has is through Jesus because it was God's plan to redeem man by becomming a man born of a virgin. The Bible says that all things were made by Jesus and for Him. Why shouldn't I be careful about what clashes with the Bible? There is so much deception in the latter days? Why should I trust anything different than the gospel I have already heard? It is even written that we shouldn't in GALATIANS:48-1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 48-1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 48-1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. It seems to me that you trust LDS doctrine more than the Bible, and that is what I don't understand. I cannot to that without believing that I would be sinning against what God has already established as ancient truth! What I am missing here? Why would God leave me out in the cold and give you something different than the ancient of days has established as ancient truth that changes not. It is written that the worlds will pass away but my Word will never fail. Remember Jesus is the Word. God spoke all things into existence (even spiritual beings). Jesus was not spoken into existence; He is the Word that took nothing and made it something. That what "is" was made with that which was not. Jesus made something out ot nothing. Heb. 58-11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

If the Father calls Jesus God, who are we to say He is our brother?

This is the problem I am having. First born doesn't mean a physical birth or even the fact that someone was born first. It is a term to mean position. For instance, when Jacob and Essau were born, Essau was born first but Jacob was considered the first born. Jesus is not God's creation. Jesus is God who is a Spirit becomming flesh throught the virgin birth of Mary. Emmanuel means God with us. Only Satan would have people believe that Jesus isn't God. There aren't three separated Gods. There is only one God! God is not the Father of us in the sense of a physical reunion. He is our father by creation, But Jesus created all things so How can He be our brother? He is our Judge and creator. He is God.

God created the worlds into existence through Christ because Christ is the Word of God and God spoke things into being by the Word. The Word is God the Word was God. It is important to know who Jesus our Judge is. The worlds were not created by Jesus under the guidance of Heavenly Father. Jesus is the Word of the Father. The Father says to the Son "But thy throne OH God is established forever." God was never without His word. He exalts His Word above His name! God is Spirit made flesh through Jesus . Jesus said before Abraham was "I am" God told Moses "I am"

I am not really good at apologetics. This forum has proved that to me. Therefore, I am all for dumbing down the topics. I think I have had too many irons in the fire. We have discussed faith and works, different levels of heaven, baptism, and the deity of Christ and several other things that I can't remember. Let me see, I ask a question below and was told it was answered but I couldn't find it. What is wrong with cutting and pasting for a CP dummy like me? I would like for you to see the way I see Jesus from the Bible to see if you can understand me seeing Him this way. The last question was that the Father God and Jesus are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. He is, however, also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" I understand the ramification of this? All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. References: Heb. 1 The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother! EPHESIANS 49-1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: He is above it because He created thrones, dominions, principalities, or powers. COLOSSIANS 51-1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him... He created angels. Satan was God's glorious creation (Light bearer) who now deceives people because he can appear as an angel of light for that very purpose. So we are not ignorant of his devices. But Jesus is the truth and He is above all created things on earth and in heaven. COLOSSIANS 51-2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Even God calls Jesus God in Heb 1. Jesus is not only the son of God, He is God the Son. He is our Savior, Creator raiser of the dead and He is our Judge. The Father judges no man (Jn 5) Jesus is not a god because He is God born of a virgin to take on human form. He was not a man come to teach us about God; he was God comming to teach man. Rev. 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 66-10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: Jesus made all things in heaven and earth. They were made by Him, through Him and for Him. There was no God formed before Him nor shall there be any after HimIsaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I see that there is only one God and that no one will compare to Him. The act of God becoming flesh does not get any more spiritual than this. Jesus creator of all things not only physical. He also created the unseen spiritual things, and was not created Himself. He always existed as the Word of God before the foundations of the world. The father says He is the first and the last and Jesus says he is the first and the last. There are not two first and last. I think the way the Devil messes with people is by giving people a distorted view of Christ.

I just had a lot of comments and accidently hit the back button and couldn't go forward all work lost. I'll have to respond later sorry! talk about frustration

I thought that a is a matrimonal relationship means given in marriage. Why??? Jesus and many of His disciples through the ages weren't married. Paul even said you can serve God better single, but it is better to marry than to burn. I thought that marriage was ordanied by God to show the relationship He wants to have with His church. When we are with God we no longer need to be shown this pararelled marriage relationship model in this temporal life because the bride (Church) will be with Jesus. Who says Christ blood is not powerful enough? There is no hole man can fall into that is deeper than God's love and shed blood. No one mentioned eternal marriage in the Bible. Maybe no one believed in it. Yes, but Jesus didn't bring it up in this context on eternal marriage. Not just the teaching of it, but also the actuall miracles He performed were rejected. What sacred work. The teaching of marriage has never been unclear to me in the Bible. We are told that men should love their wives like Christ loved the church andgave himself for it. That is further prove of the paralleled relationship and God's purpose for the institution on of marriage. I don't mean mental institution

I understand. I didn't at first. In that case, would you like to address my question on LDS belief on how Jesus can be the spiritual brother of His own creation? These things confuse me about it LDS beliefs. I had asked this question 3 times and received no response. I am sure you have one, but I haven't heard it. As far as posting things in the inappropriate location forgive me. I am still realtively new here on the forum.

I quess that is the irony of this whole discussion. I really can't find what it is to disagree with you on this topic. It is not that I want to. Nevertheless, we must both agree that Mormonism and fundamental Christianity are obviously mutually exclusive beliefs that cannot both be right. Finally, the irony is both views are called to evangelism. I cannot blame you or any on the forum for trying to convince me of what you sincerely believe to be true. I have been amusing you it seems with my debate with Justice where I appeared to be partronizing him, but that was not my purpose. I am sure you understood this because you where able to articulate back the point I was trying to make regarding faith and works. At first Justice totally misunderstood me only to find that I was going a bit deeper into the subject than he realized to the point he made the comment, "I am slow." I also understood He was trying to understand me, and what I meant. I was trying to make things clear to him not belittle him or anyone. Here is another irony still (they never stop:megaman:) I actually have no problem thinking of Justice as greater than myself. I have a good reason for believing this. You'll get no arguement from me on the Holy Scriptures.

Do you believe I am a troll? Let me see if I could explain it in a less opffensive way. They are more than just one in purpose and will. Jesus is the bursting forth of ALL God's glory. That is what proves He is distinct in person as the Son. Now, He is also the exact representation, stamp of all that God is in nature, essence and being. Before He was the Son; He was always the WORD of God. Jesus Christ in essense always was God. "The Word was God" Do you fully understand the ramification of this? All Scriptures from the Bible are designed to do is point to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Do you agree with these Scriptures from the Bible?References: Heb. 1 The question I asked was How can Jesus be the spiritual or elder brother to His own creation? I receive no response from you. I am being called a troll and insulting for this? If I create a pot, I would be insulted if someone said that was my brother! Well, this is my last post as I promised for at least a night and a day. Thanks for the PM, but I think you should post the comment on the forum if you really mean what you said.