Suzie

If someone eases me, taunts me, and harrasses me to no end, even using racial slurs that would make my wife blush, and I lose my temper, it is still 100% my fault for losing my temper. But do we think the one taunting me did nothing wrong? I think the last part is interesting based on what I was sharing previously in connection with this topic. Some men seem to have the notion that women dress in a certain way to "tempt" them and "they should be held responsible for that". In my view, it shows a lack of understanding about women's behavior but also it shows delusion of grandeur. Generally speaking, women dress for other women. Not for men. Having said that, I never heard anyone telling a man to stop dressing in a certain way because they're tempting women. "You're too sexy, stop it!" We are all big boys and big girls, we all should be modest in everything we do 100% agree but let's us not shift responsibilities here. If I turn on my computer and decide to watch porn, should I require the actors to take responsibility for 'tempting' me? One of my favorite phrases is: If it bothers you, you are probably staring too much.

@LDSGator This is my take (my apologies but I didn't read all the replies). Generally speaking, I agree that men are perhaps more "responsive" to visual stimulus than women but I don't believe it should be used as a reason and/or excuse to ask women to dress modesty so men will stop having sexual thoughts. We need to be careful than in our zeal to speak about this very important topic, we don't end up contributing to the objectification of women since as we all know it, modesty goes beyond short skirts and tight pants. In doing the opposite, we are actually throwing the responsibility to be chaste into the shoulders of young women because young men "cannot help themselves". Elder Holland gave a powerful speech about responsibility and he said this: "I’ve heard all my life that it is the young woman who has to assume the responsibility for controlling the limits of intimacy in courtship because a young man cannot. Seldom have I heard any point made on this subject that makes me want to throw up more than that. What kind of man is he, what priesthood or power or strength or self-control does this man have that lets him develop in society, grow to the age of mature accountability, perhaps even pursue a university education and prepare to affect the future of colleagues and kingdoms and the course of this world, but yet does not have the mental capacity or the moral will to say, "I will not do that thing". No, this sorry drugstore psychology would have him say, "I just can't help myself. My glands have complete control over my entire life, my mind, my will, my very future." To say that a young woman in such a relationship has to bear her responsibility and that of his too is the most discriminatory doctrine I have ever heard...." Even though it is not about modesty, the point remains the same. I have no issue whatsoever to ask women to be modest (and of course men too), I think it is very important issue and as a woman myself, I always ensure to look professional and modest in all my meetings. I just don't believe we should ask anybody to do this for the wrong reasons.

Wishing David all the best in this difficult journey ahead. https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/12/entertainment/david-archuleta-american-idol-lgbtqia-trnd/index.html https://deadline.com/2021/06/david-archuleta-says-he-is-part-of-lgbtqia-plus-community-talks-crisis-of-faith-1234774238/

Of course we see a lot of commotion in society in general but I was wondering if anyone else has seen a change in people over the last year? Indeed. I can only describe the present moment as very unhealthy and concerning. I observe a significant increase in depression, anxiety, intermittent explosive disorder (IED), substance abuse and the list goes on...

For those who have left deep scars or are toxic/dangerous/harmful, it's important to understand what 'honor' means, and doesn't mean. It doesn't mean you agree with them, or stick up for them in public, or turn yourself into a doormat or a victim. It means you take an interest in their wellbeing, and if they lack for the necessities of life, you help. Even if that means helping them into some sort of state run facility or something. I think generally speaking, I understand (not necessarily agree fully). I listen to women and men well into their 40's and 50's who have been severely abused by their parents. Don't wish to put details out here but the most horrific abuse you can imagine. One of them was rescued by the authorities after spending most of his life in a situation that could be described as "hell". He will probably need professional help for the rest of his life. Does he need to take an interest in the well-being of his torturers and provide the necessities of life if they are in need?

Generally speaking, I wonder if this issue stems from lack of communication? I wonder if husbands share with their wives the struggles they face at work? I worked most of my adult life but there was a period of time when I was a housewife and for me, it was way harder than going out and work. It is extremely demanding and not for the faint of heart. Should I mention it can cause isolation to a certain extent? Those who work outside the home, get the chance to talk with other adults, take a little break, have a laugh or two, etc but a lot of moms or stay-home dads don't have that chance. Most of the time, they're seeing about colicky babies, picking up cheerios, cleaning, cooking and the list goes on, their job isn't 8 to 5 but literally from the moment they open their eyes until their kiddies go to bed. Now, this is not to say that there is something wrong with being a housewife or a househusband but I can definitely see why the person staying at home could feel their spouse who is working outside seems to be having "fun" even though they're just working as hard. This is usually a warning sign that the person really needs a break otherwise it might lead to depression (if they aren't already experiencing it).

Just_A_Girl is a stay-at-home mom but has a set of symptoms that roughly matches fibromyalgia (though she insists it must be something else, frankly because fibromyalgia has no known cure and she hasn’t given up on recovering yet). Sorry to hear this JAG, I can imagine she's in a lot of pain. I don't want to pry but did she get a diagnosis? May I suggest yoga? (with a few changes, it can help a lot) and low-impact exercises. Otherwise—I (or increasingly, our kids) do most of the grocery shopping, most of the dinners, almost all of the dishes, all of the laundry and bathroom cleaning and vacuuming and garbage-emptying and lawn maintenance and pruning and sprinkler repair, as well as miscellaneous stuff like car maintenance and keeping our family’s 8 bicycles in working order. Certain chores that were done routinely in my house as a kid (daily bed-making, weekly surface-dusting, biweekly oiling the wood furniture and cabinetry) just don’t get done, because no one has the energy to do them. I respected you before and I respect you even more now. Sending all my love and good wishes for your entire family.

I would love to know what "honoring" exactly means for most posters (if you guys would like to share).

I my wife is under the impression that my time at work is spent hanging out, eating burgers, and playing video games. So when I come home, I’m order to make up for all the time I was partying, I do everything. The question is: Are you at work eating burgers and playing video games? lol (j/k)

We share duties. Some of them get done more often by one of us then by the other. It is great to share duties and of course, involve the children as well. Is there a chore you dislike to do?

Carborendum, I see. Hope my answer clarified your assumption.

I'm one of them. Same here! I love "to do" lists for everything.

Husband gets a fairly classic "Honey do" list of household chores because he struggles to pitch in without instuction, but he's pretty good about remembering to do the big seasonal tasks like the swamp cooler and the heater and fix old doors and stuff. And that's okay too, some people just need "to do" lists. 

It seems pretty sad that your husband can't cook. lol Where did I say he can't cook? We have different schedules and I love cooking and baking so this is why I'm the one cooking the most. Having said that, he is an excellent cook. It's odd that you put yourself forth as a liberated woman and you hold to the stereotype that only the woman can cook a homemade meal. I almost find that... insulting. Um..What? I didn't know I put myself as a "liberated woman and I hold the stereotype that only the woman can cook a homemade meal", you need to chill a bit and try to relax a bit. Hope you are just kidding because otherwise I will be the one that find this part of your post very odd.

Amateur historian Meg Stout has suggested — and although I disagree with her on some things, I think she’s onto something here — that what was actually being offered to Jane was a polygamous sealing; though between the loose terminology Joseph and Emma used and Jane’s own ignorance of the concept at the time, she may well have not fully understood. IIRC, Stout points out that the Smiths weren’t offering adoptive sealings to anyone else—male or female—at this point in time; Jane was unmarried and likely a victim of previous sexual exploitation (as Stout alleges some of his other plural wives were, thus setting up a sort of protective relationship between Smith and these wives in the future); and a polygamous sealing between Joseph and Jane would have established a pattern of racial egalitarianism much more than an adoptive sealing would have. Interesting. Taking into account Jane's own words, she described the Prophet (and Emma) treating her as a "child", as part of their family. I think this is the reason why she was confused, perhaps even wondering if it is possible at all for a an adult woman to be "adopted". I have been working and researching with little success who could be the earliest LDS black woman to convert to the LDS Church. Let's see how it ends.

It's Friday so I thought in creating a few "light" threads to talk a bit (and depending on your answers, have a laugh or two). 😉 Let's talk about household chores! For the men: How do you help around the house daily? (if you're doing something once a month/year doesn't count lol). For the ladies: How does your husband help? I'll start: We both work so we share the chores. I do the cooking because we all love homemade meals, he does the grocery shopping on occasion and helps with our never-ending laundry.

Even if they do immediately accept—getting someone to actually do the work is another matter. Having declined the opportunity for a temple sealing with Joseph Smith during his lifetime, Jane Manning James waited the rest of her life—over sixty years—for another shot at a temple sealing; and much ink has been spilt amongst the LDS intelligentsia about how agonizing the experience must have been for her. One of the most heartbreaking parts of her story is that she truly didn't understand what it meant to be "adopted" as a "child". Perhaps, Emma assumed that Jane understood what it meant but as Jane said "I didn't know my own mind. I didn't comprehend."

Things... are just so complicated and I don’t see the benefit in that. I’d rather figure out how to best be loving and truthful in the individual circumstances I come a across. That's the best we can do, thank you @Jane_Doe for sharing from your personal experience.

@Just_A_Guy My heart aches for this woman and I wonder what happened to her...to end up like this .... plus the serious challenges of caring for a severely disabled son. In my case, it is hard to explain how it feels. Part of me didn't understand it because I was too young to process it all but continued for many years until I was already an adult. But when a lie is repeated enough times... In my case, nobody would have guessed this is what we endured. My sister and I were top students, never gave any trouble whatsoever, we went private schools, etc and yet I feel as though we did all of this because we didn't want to feel guilty or be blamed. There were unrealistic expectations placed upon our shoulders and it felt as though we needed to be the BEST to be accepted. About the RS meeting at BYU... I think it is an issue of perspective? I think some members think the RS Presidency was "highlighting" her like if she was some sort of role model. I saw it from the perspective of "There are LGBTQ members of the Church in good standing, be nice and welcoming". But like you said using Elder Oaks words “more teaching to do on that matter” . Thanks for your input, I always enjoy reading your posts (even when we disagree). You're one of my favorite posters but don't let that get into your head now. 🙄

1. Certainly not. But of course, the devil is in the details of what “sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love” actually means in practice; especially given the LGBTQ lobby’s history of interpreting that phrase as meaning “you must never, ever tell us ‘no’”. We are talking about a Church request here. For me, it means to ensure we don't have a condescending attitude towards others, but show compassion and understanding about the challenges our brothers and sisters go through in life. WE are the Church and it is our responsibility (and should be natural to us) to "mourn with those who mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort". We don't get to pick and choose who we think are worth of love and support (just because they sin different than us) . Sometimes we choose to love grudgingly because we believe others have an agenda. Even though many times this is indeed the case, we are commanded to show love and kindness to all and let the Lord handle the rest. Now, don't take me wrong I don't think (generally speaking) it is an easy thing to do but at the same time, I also know we don't get to play God and change the commandment just because we don't think a group of people deserve it. I can’t speak as to what specifically has happened in the incident @NeedleinA refers to; but (taking the account at face value) it does seem odd: we don’t have, as far as I know, active and impenitent prostitutes or tax cheats or drug users being invited up to Salt Lake to advise the Church on how it can modify its rhetoric/practice to help these sorts of people feel more comfortable in church. I understand and I agree. I would like to know more about this case to know the full context. 2. I would say that any deep-seated desire to depart from community standards creates stress and therefore “is a very serious condition that can lead to isolation, depression and suicide.” Am I obliged to give @Vort the nonsensical title of “breaker of chains and mother of dragons” just his mental illness renders him vulnerable to suicide? You are not obliged to do anything you don't want to. The Church crafted those statements very carefully: " If a member decides to change his or her preferred name or pronouns of address, the name preference may be noted in the preferred name field on the membership record. The person may be addressed by the preferred name in the ward." 3. And in what other set of circumstances do mental health professionals even accept the proposition that Person A’s suicide is really the fault of person B? If I committed suicide tomorrow and left a note saying, “That @Suzie’s posts to ThirdHour rocked my world, and I don’t know what’s true anymore, and food has no taste and life has no meaning so I may as well end it all”—you wouldn’t (or shouldn’t) take that seriously; you’d dismiss it as the rantings of an unhinged madman. And you’d be right. I didn't know whether or not I wanted to reply to this part of your post because I didn't want to share something so personal but I would like to share it because maybe it can help someone. I know exactly what is like to be the recipient of such letter, not from a member but from a very close family member who committed suicide in 2002. The letter was also addressed to my sister. As I type this, I must confess I am a bit emotional because it took me long years to overcome the deep feeling of guilt. And you know what's the saddest part? My sister and I didn't do anything. My relative was someone with a mental illness so he blamed everyone and everything for his unhappiness... but when we were children, we didn't know he had a mental illness. WE truly thought WE were the ones to blame for everything that went wrong with his life. I know what is like to be a scared little girl and hear about constant threats of suicide told to ME. @Just_A_Guy from the outside, anyone can dismiss that letter and without much analysis, say that my relative was a sick person. But when you are in the situation and you happen to be the recipient (it is a completely different story). I'm grateful for therapy, for the Gospel and for a tender, loving and caring husband who helped me through it all. Even though it might sound as though I feel this way about this issue due to my experience, it is not. I just want everyone who comes to the Church to feel loved and cared for! Many people don't know what is like to be loved and many others never had "parents kind and dear". Many people go through unseen and difficult personal battles and all they need is a friendly, loving hand. WE should be the persons extending that loving hand. Personally, I consider many of our youth within the LGBTQ community at risk but regardless of this, we should treat everyone we meet with sensitivity, compassion and love and let the Lord (and his leaders) handle the rest. Even if we do ascribe third-party liability for the suicide of people in general, and LGBTQ folk in particular—what about the accountability of the “allies” who have legitimized suicide as an option for sexually-frustrated LGBTQ folk by continually nattering on about suicide while insisting that institutions like the Church that insist on traditional notions of chastity are somehow stunting these people’s chances for happiness and reducing them to a sort of second-class half-life as long as they can’t experience the glories of sexual fulfillment? Isn’t there literature suggesting that the more suicide is normalized and discussed, the more likely it becomes? Maybe it is surprising to some but I don't consider myself an LGBTQ ally. Suicide is never an "option". Oh, undoubtedly the Church is getting pressure; and one of the joys (!) of being in a church with living prophets is that we really can’t quite ever say “never”; whether we’re talking about hypothetical developments like modifications to the law of chastity, or gay sealings, or the restoration of polygamy, or announcing that there actually is no Heavenly mother, or decreeing that only Asians with Klinefelter Syndrome can be called to the Q12, or teaching that Adam and Eve were actually purple Oompa Loompas who lived in Antarctica. The issue, of course, comes when advocates say “go ahead and perpetrate this excommunicable offense now, and just trust that the prophets will catch up with you eventually.” I have been observing this topic closely over the years, and I must say I have been struggling with it a bit... because changing the stand on an issue such as this could mean many things for the Church and I'm not sure if I am prepared to have that discussion yet...

People who won’t admit that they are sick but insist on going to the hospital anyways (and ordering us patients around while demanding we recognize them as the true experts in healing), are always going to feel uncomfortable in this Church; and if that tension leads to accusations of ecclesiastical apartheid—I guess we’ll just have to live with that. I understand @Just_A_Guy and I always appreciate your take on things but my point here is: Do we stop showing sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love because they are sinning different than us? Do we stop showing sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love to the cheater, the dishonest, the addict, etc? Because that's all the Church is asking: Showing some compassion and Christlike love. About a member deciding to change his or her preferred name or pronoun of address (and the Church basically saying it's okay), I think we need to see it from a mental health perspective. Gender dysphoria is a very serious condition that can lead to isolation, depression and suicide. Pronouns are a form of self-identification that can help certain individuals battling this condition in every day life. Having said all of this, I do understand how members in general feel about this issue and there are many discussions about this topic online: Is the Church being pressured to soften their stand on LGBT related issues? Are they slowly changing their stand? Where is all of this heading?

Guess I'm a little butt hurt from above mentioned SSA sister dumping her husband, helping to destroy my female cousin's marriage and then run off with her instead. I hate to picture the Church in it's eager beaver desire to love all, being led around by the nose by such a person. Do you feel the same way about heterosexual persons doing the same thing? Many years ago, a former Bishop of my ward cheated on his wife (non-member) of 25 + years (2 kids) and left her for a sister in the Church. I don't know what exactly took place with regards to Church discipline (and it is definitely none of my business) but since then, both of them had leadership callings, etc and I'm truly happy for them because they are good people. The Church is indeed a hospital for all of us sinners. And I am grateful that our Church leadership is asking us to treat each and every person who comes to our Church with the love and compassion they deserve, as children of God. There is no place for any kind of apartheid in the Church of Christ.

There aren't many things I find difficult to just plain consider, but this is one of them. NeuroTypical, do you mind expanding why would you find it difficult? You mentioned earlier " If brother Fred decides he is now a she, and wishes to be called Laverne, then our marching orders are to accept her with as much sensitivity, kindness, compassion, and an abundance of Christlike love..." Marching orders? It sounds as though you would find this to be a "difficult task" to accomplish?

@Backroads based on the title of your post, you stated already that you don't want to go. So is it because you resent your aunt, or because you really want to go to this vacation and you keep telling to yourself it is okay because she wasn't "nice"? (sorry if I sound like I'm psychoanalyzing)

The likelihood of this woman being stoned was approximately zero. Precisely, and this is why you can tell from the start that it was a set up. They weren't planning to stone the woman because they knew they didn't have legal grounds to do so. (Where is the man? Where are the witnesses? Who "found" her?). Jesus was very much aware of it and this is why he "stooped down and wrote on the ground". There are variant manuscripts that insert the phrase “the sins of each one of them” at the end of verse 6 When someone was accused of committing a serious offense/sin, didn't the priest have to write their names and the charges against them? (often times, the temple floor was used for this purpose because it couldn't be permanent) so just maybe Jesus wrote both their sins and their names? In Jeremiah 17:13 (which was read also during the first seven days of the Feast of the Tabernacles) it says: " O Lord, the hope of Israel, all that aforsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the Lord, the fountain of living waters." It is interesting because just before this story, in John 7 Jesus refers to himself in a similar fashion (verses 14-15 of Jeremiah are also very interesting).