Tr2

Snow's 1st Post; Snow's most recent post; Is this the same person writing here?

There is that word again. Some people need to stop using that word as a crutch to describe people who don't see life the way they do.

Then why did you begin this thread? You appeared to have a problem with this until I appeared to be on your side on this one.

Sounds like some people need to grow some thicker skin.

I am impressed by the level of devotion you have to your leaders. Never would I permit a pastoral authority of mine to speak into my child's life without involving me somehow. I know I'm still relatively new to this parenting thing but I do think the job of raising my kids rests on my shoulders, not a man who gives advice and says "see you next month".

You were pointing out the fact that the LDs church is growing rapidly. You, and others, have suggested in the past that because it is growing rapidly this automatically makes it a good thing. I simply gave you a dose of the reality of the world we live in, or at least the world I live in. So you practice your religion just to spite somebody else? What a stupid reason to do anything. When your religion is put through 300 years of persecution where you can be executed by your government for claiming to follow it, then you will get sympathy. So a person has to be part of an institution, that doubles as a large business, for salvation? Didn't Jesus once flip over your tables?

So if it is growing fast that must make it good.AIDS, fatherless children, and crime rates are growing fast too.

When it comes to this topic I use examples, those who don't agree with me use their "interpretations". I use the thread that Jenda mentioned as my example to prove that. i don't think these types of scriptures require any in depth interpretation because they are so straight forward. NOWHERE IN THE NT CAN YOU SHOW ME THAT GOOD WORKS LEAD TO AN ETERNITY IN HEAVEN. However I can show you multiple examples of God's grace leading us to heaven.

???

Maybe so, he just didn't think enough of you to involve you.

I do not see one single piece of scripture here? If people are so wrong, then surely you wil be able to prove your points with scriptures. Show how they are wrong instead of making blanket statements. Instead of acting like you are so much better than these people, who don't you use some scripture to back up your points. if your opinion cannot be backed up with scripture than it is nothing more than your opinion.

Oh so now you are concerned about evidence? Interesting how evidence has never been much of a concern what I was asking for it.If you can show me some evidence that Joseph Smith had any encounters with angels where he received all the revelation he claimed. Or show me evidence of any golden plates, or whatever they were made of. You do this and I'll do my best to show any evidence that may exist about Smith and the Methodists. Since you've been unable to show evidence in te past, I won't hold my breath.

That bishop has proven that he is unqualified for that job. He has overstepped his authority big time by trying to parent a teenager instead of working with you and your wife. This bishop has undercut you as a parent and I sincerely hope you don't let it go.

As a mormon, do you believe you are saved by grace AFTER all you've done? This belief implies that works still effect salvation, and extra-biblical concept. Who judges us? Read John 5:22 and John 3:16/17 before you answer. Of course I am NOT. You are giving the thief credit for things he never did. the facts are very simple, the thief did nothing of merit after Jesus spoke with him. Neither you or I can say what this man would have done because we just don't know. You can assume, but I'll stick with the irrefutable facts. BTW, does your employer pay you on your potential or for the work that you actually do? I agree, but how many people actually live like this? Want to know a sure way to test somebody's motives? Reject what they do and look at their response. If they were doing it for another person, their response will be that of understanding because they have the interests of another in mind. But if they get upset or something else that is a sure tell-sign that they are doing it for themselves. If you are doing something for somebody else, what business do you have getting upset because they didn't like it? Weren't their interests the reason why you were doing what you were doing?Do you ever wonder why Jesus never lashed out at the people who were putting him through the worst form of execution in the history of mankind? Can you back that up with scripture specifying that? Yes they are. Such as? Nobody asked you what you thought! This is a discussion about what the bible says, therefore it's out of your realm of understanding. When the discussion turns to mindless insults and demonstrations of self righteousness, it will be up your alley.

Ah, the 116 lost pages. I think the best description of this belongs to M.T. Lamb, "Joseph Smith's attempt to save the Book of Mormon by rewriting the beginning". It's about Smith's credibility. If I claimed to have some kind of encounter with God where he told me that the mormon church was of the devil, and then tried to become a member of the mormon church, would you consider my claims of an encounter with God to be valid? Of course not. Because they did not allow him to join. Oh well if you two don't agree then there is no possible way it could be otherwise. How silly of me.

Because he didn't think much of the mormon church idea that he was given. When I am not satsified with something, I usually shop around, just like everybody else.

Works-salvation is anti-christ theology because if you can earn your way to heaven then you do not need Christ to get there. Matthew 7:13-20 - This scripture doesn't indicate anything. It simply states that you enter the wide gate or you enter the narrow one. It does not suggest that works dictate which one you'll go through. Matthew 16:27 - It is a very big assumption to think that this is speaking of where you spend eternity. Does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell. James 2:14-17 - Again, does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell. BUT HE DIDN'T! Do you think the Armed Forces are ever going to give out a Medal of Honor to somebody for what they MIGHT do in the future? Is there any biblical basis for believing God gives out prizes for potential good works? Again, a man-made theology. No disrespect, but everybody says that. My evidence never comes from what a person says, but what others say about them. I've found that asking somebody's spouse is the real indicator of where they are. There is nothing easier than self deception. If I ever want to know where I'm truly at, I ask my wife because she sees me from a point of view that I am uncapable of. Irue, I just wanted to show that it is a poor indicator that somebody actually did. That is correct. Faith and works are tied together a lot. However they are NEVER tied together in terms of eternal destiny being affected by our works. I don't understand why but religious people seem to always value performance and works ahead of what is in their heart. I always look at motives, not the works themselves. There is no closeness between man and God if man must earn every bit of love himself. The more man must do means the less that God must do. If you want a religion that is based around man's righteousness rather than God's goodness, then works-salvation might be for you.

I never said that, you're reading what I didn't say. I never said that all a person has to do is SAY they were born again. Being born again is not something you or I can judge because neither of us can see the spirit of another person. We can see the parts of people that are being saved mind(though that's kind of a stretch), will, emotions.I once lived under the notion that behavior dictated where you were spending eternity. I found that I had absolutely no biblical basis for believing that. That is one of the things that man made up somewhere. It is a man-made theology. I did find a few interesting examples that contradicted my whole train of thought: 1- The thief on the cross. He was sorry for what he did, that is evident by his remorse. But he did not live life deserving of anything good. I know some people on this board wold like to think he was a good man. He was on a cross, sentenced to death. The ones who were put on crosses were considered enemies of Rome who had been convicted in a court of law. Jesus called him a thief for a reason. 2- The story of the lost son. There were 2 sons. One acted right and the other did not. One was a faithful son and the other was a rebel who threw his inheritance away. At the end of this story we see that the father had equal love for his children. Some people think that because his father promised him everything he had, that means he was rewarded for his service. The older brother received all his father had because that was his birth right, not because he earned it or acted righteous enough to receive it. The way that culture worked is if there were 2 brothers, the younger would get 1/3 and the older would get 2/3. The moment the younger son received his 1/3 basic math will tell you that 3/3 minum 1/3 = 2/3 (exactly how much his birthright claimed for him). Both of these sons received what they were destined to have, rgeardless of their actions. It is tough for most people to comprehend the fact that God gives people that they don't deserve. I am not God and don't make the rules. Some people need to understand that. Our world rewards good behavior. If you do well in school, you are rewarded by being able to go to a good college. if you perform well at work, you get a raise. The world's system is like this, but God is not. I see this all the time, I even went through it a few times. It is nothing more than an emotional experience. Why do I say that? Because I see the changes that people do go through. There is a pocket of people at my church who go to conferences on a semi-regular basis. They come back like whole new people because of what they've experienced. But that only lasts for a period of time, usually around 2 weeks.When people first find Jesus their responses are usually the same, tremendous joy and they can't help but tell other people. This is far from what most people end up like. Unless you experience that same joy and eagerness to tell everybody you see about Jesus all the time, then it is nothing more than an emotional response dictated by your mind, will, and emotions.

The gospels and Paul's letters are too late so the solution is to bring in writing that is centuries after them and think they are right? How does that work?

I agree. Some have very little and others have a lot. There is that word, "attacking". Why is it that whenever somebody disagrees with another person's views and points that out it is called an attack? Just more PC nonsense. If I were to attack another religion, you'd know it.

Joseph Smith and the Methodists

Repentance means to change your behavior. Do we agree that repentance is a gift from God? I don't believe that repentance can be found outside of the grace of God. If a person is not born again, they have cut themselves off of this gift. Is it God witholding it, no. God's light will not shine in a dakrness that we willfully choose. When a person's spirit is born again and renewed in Christ, they have enabled themselves to walk in this gift of repentance and thus the possibility for real change of behavior is present. If a 20 year postitute and crack addict's spirit is born again, their mind, will and emotions do not change. I have never spoken to one person who, because they were saved, forgot any of the pain they experienced in life. Our behavior changes slowly over time, but we are already saved. Our soul (mind, will, emotions, personality, etc) are all in the process of being saved. The way a person behaves is not relevant to their salvation. The only reason God wants people to act holy is so they can enjoy their life on earth and help others come into the gift of salvation. Don't know if I provided any clarity.

No, Smith went into the whole situation uneducated and uninformed. There is no reason for any intelligent person to believe Smith knew the difference between an angel and a demon. If what I read about Smith, that is LDS produced, then he took everything at face value and didn't question a thing. If some angel were to come out of the sky and give me new medical directives, that contradicted the tested and proven methods I use in the field every day, and I applied them without hesitation i would kill people. Considering that the LDS church is supposed to be this restored church of Christ I just have one question. Where is the evidence showing how you are doing greater things than Christ, after all wasn't that one of Jesus' promises?

I wonder why I've never heard of a mormon missionary talk about Smith's attempted involvement in the Methodist church, I guess that would really get somebody thinking about what Smith claims.

Being born again has absolutely nothing to do with a peson's behavior. When a person is born again that means their spirit has been born again. Being born again enables behavior the change, not the other way around. The bible refers to three terms of salvation: we were saved, we're being saved, we will be saved. "We were saved" is about our spirit, this happens when we accept Jesus as our savior. "We are being saved" is about the condition of our mind, will, emotions, personality etc. Heart falls into that category. "We are being saved" is about our bodies. We will one day have a restored body and that will only happen when we go to heaven. Our body is an earth suit. If you want to judge behavior as being born again, there is no such thing. Your behavior is all about the way you live your life. To say that one's behavior dictates whether they are born again or not is works-salvation and removes Jesus from any equation. Jesus is not a necessary element for somebody who tries to get to heaven based on their own worthiness.