carlimac

I guess we all form opinions based on our personal experiences. And unfortunately, rumor and heresay and urban legend. The most unfortunate and painful is the personal experience. Were the members treating you shamefully acting as Christ would? If not, that doesn't make the church or the Gospel untrue. But it does require forgiveness and coming to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with a broken heart and contrite spirit. I guess I'm confused when you say that you wouldn't trust your children with people who hold my views, but that the couple sealed in the temple and parenting the way the prophet would is the ideal. I WAS sealed in the temple and my views are taken directly from the Proclamation- that came from the prophet- that came from Heavenly Father. So basically you are saying you wouldn't trust your children with the Prophet? That seems like a problem. I have always said in every post- I don't hate gays. I understand that some may have legitimate attractions to their same gender for whatever reason. But I hate what they do when they give in to their physical urgings. I'm extremely uncomfortable with it just like I would be if I knew my children or husband or myself were having sex outside of marriage with the opposite gender. It goes against God's plan. He hasn't changed His plan. I'm only trying to adhere to what I've been taught by the prophets. I'm imperfect to say the least. I'm not the most stellar scriptorian or the most productive homemaker. I get impatient with my children and husband at times. I probably don't even go to temple as often as I should. I'm at about 50% on my visiting teaching. I have weaknesses that need to be worked on. By I DO believe what the prophets and general authorities have said about gay relations. I believe they are wrong. BUT I would continue to love a person with those tendencies. It may be hard to relate to them on a personal basis, but I would always try to love them as a child of God. I DO know that Jesus and our Heavenly Father love them. That is the ideal. But I can't for one minute believe that he approves of gay marriage or what they do intimately. I don't believe the prophet does either.

Is this directed to me? What group of people are you talking about? If it's gays, I only know a few personally. They are some of the nicest people. But I've watched the news and read and researched. I've seen what has gone on in the protests and kiss-ins and all that garbage. I am smart enough to know that this doesn't represent the whole gay community. On a side note- you really don't often hear about large violent groups of LDS people desecrating sacred gay property. You do hear about large groups of LDS people standing up for the definition of marriage. I haven't been in CA when any of this has gone on- haven't seen it in person. But I'd bet anyone would be hard pressed to find angry, destructive mobs of LDS retaliating against gays. "By their fruits ye shall know them."

There is such a wide disparity of belief on this issue. I don't think it's black and white in every case. Some person's hormones may be as opposite and messed up as possible, but in other cases it may just be nothing more than an inkling that the same gender is attractive. Every person who claims to be gay probably sits on a different spot within the spectrum. But in ANY case, I prefer to put my trust in our church leaders on this. Not that ssa doesn't exist but that everyone who is troubled by it CAN overcome it through our Savior. Our leaders know more than we do and they know more than we think they know. There is nothing scientific about faith. No proof. In my life, it's just a simple belief that God has put leaders on this earth to direct and guide us on these prickly and nebulous issues. If we continue in denial and justifying our weaknesses (many become expert at this, forever turning the problem around and blaming everyone else but themselves), we'll never get the heavenly help to overcome them.

LDS people CAN love a child no matter who they are. Your attitude feeds the "Mormons hate gays" myth. That isn't true. I ( and many Mormons) hate the sin. I can't condone it or support it. I can't support or condone drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, taking illicit drugs, child abuse, spousal abuse, adultery and a host of other things I consider wrong- even if the person involved thinks it makes them happy. But I can still love the person (although it would be a real test of my faith to try to love a person involved in child and spousal abuse.) Jesus loved the sinner but condemned the sin. We are striving to be like Jesus. There is a higher law here. It's a Celestial law. It doesn't give us any right to feel or act superior to any other of God's children on this earth. But if we want to inherit the Celestial kingdom, we need to be trying to live and help our children understand and live that law, too. That's all I have time for today.

Sounds like a pretty unique situation to me. There are good people and bad of all religions. I hope you're not judging the whole LDS church and it's doctrines by this one troubled family. Sounds like they aren't living up to what they know is right.

My point is simply this. I'm talking about a pretty narrow and unlikely situation- homosexuals trying to raise LDS kids. If we believe the Gospel, we believe homosexuals living together, married or not (assuming they are having sexual relations) is wrong. How can homosexuals teach that principle , yet live in opposition to it? Not a great way to teach that principle. Sure, they can raise good kids with high morals. But our Gospel goes beyond just morals. It's very specific in what we are taught God expects of us. Homosexual relations is not in His eternal plan, as far as I've heard anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

OK assuming those of us on this board who are debating this hold to the principles of the gospel as spelled out by the Proclamation to the World and the words of our prophet, how then would we justify letting our children possibly be raised by a gay or lesbian couple (as in- if I die I want a g/l couple to raise them) when children learn more from adult example than anything. Why would anyone want their children to have to face that huge obstacle in learning right from wrong if they are being raised by loving but blatantly sinful people? I RECOGNIZE that no one is perfect. I'm not. My kids probably get the wrong idea from me on a daily basis. But my imperfections don't have anything to do with the really big commandment type sins. And they don't fly directly in the face of the Proclamation. It's really late and I'm not making much sense. Butone more try. It just seems like those of us who have genuine testimonies of the the LDS gospel see this in a completely different way than those who don't believe the prophet or church doctrine on this matter. Every argument for allowing children to be adopted or raised by gay parents follows the world view. Every argument for not allowing them to be raised by by gays follows the Lord's view. I have no doubt that there are many loving and kind gay and lesbian people who would make excellent parents. But the problem lies in the messages kids will pick up from them. Gays, lesbians, and liberals think that message is just fine and won't hurt kids and actually will help them to be open minded, accepting of all people, more loving, etc... That isn't a bad message. But the message that it's OK to act on your urges, to not resist temptation to actively deny the principles of the Gospel is a very dangerous and confusing message to give kids. That incorrect message trumps the good stuff. And THAT will ultimately hurt them spiritually.

Well in that case, lets not let ANY hetero couple adopt if they are so terribly at risk for all this rotten stuff to happen. Surely gay/lesbian couples are immune to all that. Protect the children! Give em to gays!! (Sarcasm intended)

But the CWLA hasn't researched their spiritual growth.

Jumping on this way late. I've read some of the responses but not all so I apologize if someone else has answered this in the same way I am going to. I'm only addressing the "celebration" part. For me it's very simple. If the two people are LDS and marrying outside the temple, I will attend and celebrate their union. But at the same time I will feel sad that they aren't worthy to receive all the blessings the Lord wishes for them. Definitely a subdued celebration, in my heart and mind anyway. If one person is LDS and marrying someone of a different religion in their church, that would add another measure of sadness for me, especially since their children will likely face confusion and the LDS member will face lonliness. I would attend but wouldn't feel very celebratory. If someone is not LDS and is baptizing their child, or are getting baptized or married in their own church I'd attend if invited and celebrate with them and curiously watch the whole proceedings. I've been to several Catholic and one Jewish wedding. Very interesting culturally but I can't say I felt much spiritually. The parties were fun though and great food! My daughter went to a friends bat mitzvah- same experience for her. Educational and fun but not spiritually uplifting. If an LDS friend is getting baptized into another church, I would not celebrate and probably wouldn't attend unless it were a very close relative. Lastly, if a friend or family member were marrying someone of their same sex, I most definitely wouldn't celebrate and possibly would not even attend. I believe it's a farse and blasphemy before Heavenly Father. I honestly don't know if I could even attend my own child's gay wedding. I would NOT pay for it that's for sure!! (Thankfully so far none of them have chosen that path.) But I would certainly allow them to come to family events with their partner and would still love them. But there would be no outward or inward celebration from me at all. Selfish? Perhaps but there are lines I just can't cross.

I have a hard time believing a g/l couple living together and wanting to get married are celibate. If they are attracted to each other as g/l claim they are...seems like it would be headed that way- I mean toward being NOT celibate. If they aren't attracted to each other, what's the point of being together in the first place. Good friends of the same gender can live together but they they wouldn't try to get married. That would be just nonsense. ( But I suppose it's happened. Friends with benefits- as in govt./financial benefits but not "BENEFITS") Strange world we live in.

Dang! No iphone.

I'll take a shot at this. 1- Whoever applied first should get the child. First come first served. ( Although, my personal preference will always be the hetero couple) 2- Aren't those questions already asked for blood donation? I've never donated due to medical issues so I don't know. Seems like a no brainer. Yes, ask!! 3-Probably not. If they did, then every possible high risk activity would have to be identified and asked about. ( Do you store lime soda colored cleaning solutions in unlocked cupboards with kids in the house? Do you ever drive 3 hours home too late at night after eating too much at your mother-in-law's house? Do you consume triple fudge brownie ice cream more than once a week? ) It would get too tedious. But my prefernce would be Yes- charge more. Especially if there have been many same sex partners before.

Unfortunately in our last ward children did learn easier. But they learned to parrot each other. And it's the same "testimony"word for word kids have been giving for at least 30 years... "For those who don't know me, I'm___________. I know the church is true. I know ____________ is a prophet. I love my family. In the name of......" I don't doubt they sincerely want to bear their testimony but I do doubt they really have one. It seems to be the kids who really seek the spotlight who are up there every month. Sometimes 10 kids in a row all saying the same thing. Some giggle their way through it. Some get flustered if they get the order wrong. But occasionally a kid will get up there and you can just sense their sincerity. The Spirit immediately kicks ON and there is no doubt they really have felt what they are saying. They are an inspiration to everyone, even at very young ages. As for the rest of them, it probably will never change so we just have come to expect it. At least it's a time filler at slow testimony meetings.

Sounds fun. How do you play?

Thanks for the explanation. Yes I've seen them but not for many years. I'd forgotten about Gingy. I'll forever look at your avatar differently now.

Followed by this: And Wingnut laughing and Suzie thanking you. A little gang mentality going on there. But it's cool. No problem. Pam- you are mostly very kind in your responses. But can I ask... why the alarmed gingerbread man? When I see it I always get the impression that you are alarmed by the post or the poster or the topic or something. Is there something significant about that picture? Sorry to hurt your feelings. Wasn't trying to flame you. I hope you weren't trying to flame me either with your little atonement/carnival comment. And by the way, I didn't say I thought the ads were to pave the way for Mitt Romney. I said "some people" think they are. Many of these websites have come to that conclusion. I'm getting this info off Mormon Life - What They're Saying About "Us" if you're interested in taking a look. Have a nice week everyone. I think this topic has run it's course. Might as well close it before any more feelings get hurt.

This felt like a personal attack or at the least, a response meant to make me feel stupid.

You're right. And for some who have no frame of reference other than the negative it will be an eye opener and hopefully a positive introduction. But I'm a bit skeptical. I'm mostly concerned that for a huge number of people who already know who the Mormons are and feel pestered by the missionaries or take issue with anything we stand for, the ads will be something to further antagonize them. (Heaven forbid my son's old girlfriend's Lutheran mother sees them- I can just hear the ranting now.) I suppose the people who hate the church will continue to hate us regardless. But it's the fence sitters- those who are presently neutral towards the church who don't have an opinion either way but start to hear the angry ranting (that seems to be so much louder than any praise we ever hear) and the rumors and lies that go viral on the internet, who may be swayed toward mistrusting or even hating us. Maybe that's the risk we take. But I just feel there are much less riskier ways of getting ourselves known. Oh well. Looks like I'm in the minority around here. What's new?

"I think is a great idea, however the Church wants to reach MILLIONS of people across the US and outside the US (where these ads are also shown through cable). Fairs won't be able to accomplish this task effectively." (Quote from Suzie) It's true that the church can reach more through TV and cable than local community fairs. The church has done some awesome ads in the past. Very professionally produced and non-threatening. They were general messages that were "feel good", and inspiring and easy to relate to. Who can argue with the messages like " spending time with family is important" (the dad that got kidnapped by his kids to go camping) and "take time to listen to your kids" ( the little girl who has to talk to the dog cause no one else will listen to her). But these new ads seem to be...I don't know ... perhaps just too focused on what cool people we think we are rather than what a cool message we have about the restored Gospel in the latter days. Is how neat we are really the message we want spread to millions of people? As a member of the church, they are fun to watch. I think, wow what interesting people. Gosh I didn't know this professional surfer was a member of the church. She's great! And that artist mom is so talented and I'd love to have her as my neighbor or better yet- my visiting teacher. But then I look at the ads through the eyes of people who have vaguely heard of the Mormons and I can see how they would be saying, " What's the point?" or "Why does it matter if she's a Mormon?" What if these ads were put on by Baptists or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other religion. Wouldn't you be at least slightly annoyed or puzzled? I'd be thinking- " So you're Buddhist or a Sun worshipper or a Wickan. Why are you telling me this on national TV? What are you trying to sell me?" So Pam and anyone else who wonders, I haven't changed my stance at all about the ads. I personally enjoy them. Of course- I'm a Mormon myself. What's not to like? ;-) But I feel embarrassed for the Church and this particular tactic when I read comments and posts on a variety of media websites that scream "Get this **** off the air!"

I don't know why but the ads seem to be bothering a whole lot of people.

Ok you smart alecs. You could at least inquire about what I'm mean by carnival before you go poking fun. (Almost every time I've been on this forum I end up bashed by Wingnut or sadly questioned by Pam- at least your gingerbread man looks sad. Why not give him a happy face so I don't always think your posts are so negative.) ANYWAY...if anyone is interested in trying to understand what I had in mind (ahem!!) ...I remember going to "carnival" type activities in my ward. Booths set up with games, activities, food, samples of Family Home Evening lessons, that type of thing. The Women's Conference at BYU has this type of thing- booths or stations set up for educational and iformational purposes and for hands on projects. Maybe carnival isn't the right word but it's the word that came to mind at the moment. "Fair" maybe? But then you'd probably scoff at that one, too. I've heard of a quilting bee where a stake Relief Society joined together with other Christian women from many churches and made hundreds of quilts over several weekends to donate to earthquake victims. I mentioned the clothing give away in Minneapolis. How about work projects where people from other churches could work side by side with Latter Day Saints? Our stake did a Nativity every year at the stake house and invited the general public. A really special program was put on. A bell choir from another church was invited to perform, Nativities from many families outside the church were put on display. It was a great missionary event. The church had a very positive reputation in our community. I just think spending the money to DO something for others- put the gospel in action, actually allow people to work with, talk with, meet real live Latter Day Saints might be a better way to "promote" ourselves if this is the objective we're after, rather than just putting a pretty face on TV. Nobody has to agree with me. I'd just appreciate it if you could be a little kinder in your responses. But then it wouldn't be any fun to come on these forums would it? At times I don't think LDS forums are much different than all the comment boards with the nasty mean spirited individuals criticizing the church. The internet emboldens people to say things they probably wouldn't dare say to a person's face. These kinds of forums (even LDS ones) encourage debate and sometimes it can get contentious and even those of us who "talk of Christ and preach of Christ" forget common Christ-like courtesy. Thanks to those who tried to add to the conversation with insightful comments rather than tearing it down.

Yup! Looks like we're both saying the same thing.:)

Everyone is taking everything I'm saying so literally. "Truly elect" is a phrase that means (to me anyway) nothing more than someone who is prepared to recognize the truth of the Gospel when they hear it. What I'm trying to say is that while many will look suspiciously and criticize the church for these ads, hopefully there will be some people in whom an interest will spark through the ads. Or at the very least, the ads won't be a deterrant or a negative association for them when they do hear the gospel message . It seems like they would be a negative for some according to what I'm reading in the blogs. Just for the record, I love the Gospel. I'm a very strong active member and always intend to be. But sometimes the Church PR people, expert or not, get a little overzealous and the effect can be a bit cheesy sometimes. A little like BYU sports fans who in my book rate as the most annoying I've ever come across. And I'm a BYU alum!

I think trying to correct them is always a good thing, too. It's just the method that makes me cringe a little. I'd be more comfortable with flyers or a carnival put on by the church where all the public is invited for free and everyone has a good time. I know in Minneapolis there is a clothing give away going on sponsered by the church. That seems a more genuine effort than buying advertising time on TV that everyone knows is exhorbitantly expensive and spotlighting a handful of members who may be typical Mormons ...or not. Sadly, the commentors on media websites are more often than not really negative. It's the positive ones who rarely post anything which is too bad.