carlimac

I haven't read all these posts so my opinion might be redundant but I think its appropriate for a school that is funded by the church to censor something like that. In fact I think it was really dumb for them to publish it in the first place. The letter seems to be really challenging the members testimonies of the prophet and that's just inappropriate within the bounds of BYU. A letter like that at the U or USU would be...whatever...just another liberal spouting off. But at BYU- you just don't cross that line. And that's OK with me. That's the way it should be. Whether I agree with what the letter is saying is another topic for another thread.

A couple questions come to mind MOE. You said you thought long and hard (or something like that) about whether or not to wear the garment on your canoe trip. Was prayer part of that process? What do you think the Lord's answer was? If you absolutely feel that the Lord was telling you to not wear the garment because your life would be in grave danger if you did, then absolutely- that inspiration trumps the counsel we've been given about how and when to wear it. But I think that sometimes we *think* things have the potential of being a lot worse than they actually are or could be. And that leads to my second question. In looking back, do you think that it was worth it to go without the garment for that week? And do you still feel that it was personal revelation to go without, or do you think you might have been a little more cautious than you needed to be? I ask these questions, not to pin you down but to get to the real heart of the matter which is, how honest are we really being with ourselves when we choose to let certain personal decisions trump counsel or commandments or whatever? I just have to say that many times I have chosen my own path, thinking I really could go against a commandment or strong suggestion from GAs- feeling as if I was getting some sort of directive from the heavens, only to be disappointed with myself later realizing I could have followed the prescribed path. What I thought was personal revelation was just me jumping at shadows. I would have been better off just following the counsel rather than making up my own rules.

Interesting. I wasn't aware of that. I'm sure his posts add a colorful spin on things at times. I love diverse opinions as long as we play nice. ;-)

Sheer numbers! :) I dunno. Maybe all these men are boozin behind the barn on the weekends and my husband is truly the only one righteous enough. But I doubt it.

His patriarchal blessing tells him to accept callings. So he did. It was as simple as that (in his mind). He just forgot to look at the big picture in the heat and pressure of the moment. I reminded him that he always has the option to say, "Let me discuss this with my wife first." And I painted the big picture pretty clearly when he got home. My guess is that he might ultimately accept the call but we need time to adjust some things. It will require even some of our kids to give up activities and personal desires...that trickle down effect that many men don't think exists. I just wish the bishop would have had the sensitivity to ask about our present situation before assuming we'd just take this on without batting an eye. It would also have been nice to let us ease our way into the ward, teach a class or serve on a comittee- get a feel for the ward members and get to know people better before putting my husband in a position of having to call counselors and lead people who don't know him, nor he them. Like I said before, this is huge ward with many able and capable priesthood holders. I just don't see the emergency need of scooping up the newest newcomer for something like this. Maybe out in a struggling branch? Yes. But not here.

Yes, we discussed this last night. He knows precisely how I feel and he did call the bishop back last night to put this whole thing on hold for a few days while we can figure things out.

Correct. I also think he is anxious to make a good impression in this new ward. Or to put it another way, he really wants this to be a good experience and is jumping to please and be accepted. Sigh!! Maybe there is too much baggage that I don't feel like revealing in this thread. Lots of stuff that would shed more light on the situation. It's all mentally exhausting! Anyway, I've always been supportive of my husbands callings- never complained once when he was bishop. But this one has stopped me in my tracks for some reason. So I have to reconcile my temple covenants and desire to be obedient with a strong impression that this calling just isn't right- right now.

We're currently in a state of transition and stress, just barely moved to a new city 1800 miles away from former home. Trying to get our feet on the ground, trying to learn a new city and adjust, living in temporary housing, kids in new schools, trying to plan a home to be built, driving 40-50 miles everyday transporting kids to school and sports activities, husband with brand new job with huge new and unfamiliar responsibilities that include travel and managing a team. We don't get to be together as a family much right now. And that's just a smidgen of what's going on in our lives. We're overwhelmed! So last night my husband got a calling from the bishop with heavy leadership responsibilities and time commitment. My husband, always the Pleaser and the Yes man, accepted it. Apparently he wasn't given the chance to discuss it with me, but says he was asked to accept the calling on the spot. First of all, that seems inappropriate with a calling that will heavily impact our family. Second of all, the bishop has no idea what's going on with my husband's new job or anything else. He never asked how our family is doing, how we're getting along in a new place, if we're settled in or need any help, etc. He does knows my husband is a former bishop and I believe he snatched him for this calling because my husband is capable and available. (This is a ward abounding in active priesthood holders- no shortage of capable men!!) Would anyone else be a little miffed? My first reaction was that this is not the right time in our lives for this calling. I've heard a hundred times the saying that we're not supposed to serve only when it's convenient. Also "you're never supposed to turn down a calling" and "the Lord will fill in the gaps when we serve Him". I don't want to deny a blessing for our family or those those my husband would lead. But then there is the whole principle of not running faster than you have strength. I feel like this calling is coming too soon for my husband and our family- at a time when we're barely holding it together as it is. An article in last month's Ensign hits this head on. ("All Things in Wisdom and Order" by John Taggart) It basically states that a wise bishop will take into consideration a family's circumstances before extending a heavy calling. I don't think this was done. You would have to know my husband to get the full picture. He says yes to everything- knee jerk reaction, then often has to back peddle to get out of it when he realizes he's in too deep. We had planned to be out of town one weekend but said yes to someone asking him to cover his Sunday School lesson. He said yes he'd go on high adventure with the scouts (even though it wasn't his calling or obligation) the very week the moving company was coming. I constantly have to remind him that he just can't do it all and pull him out of these situations. Anyway, does anyone think there is an appropriate time to say no to a calling?

Just a thought to ponder...I think the answers given here have been appropriate and really good. But I wonder if children and adults, too would consider taking the sacrament more significant and a privilege if we didn't give it to children till after their baptism. Catholics make a really big deal out of first communion (maybe too big a deal in some cases??) but they prepare the kids and put a huge emphasis on it as being something they do for the first time. So in their lifetime of communion taking, there is a "before" time when they weren't allowed it, then an "after" when they are old enough and prepared enough to participate... something to be cherished rather than something they have always done simply out of habit.

One more idea- have you had a patriarchal blessing yet? If so, read it again. If not, ask for one. It can help you discover your gifts and what God wants you to do with them.

Tamiele, everyone has a gift from God that can benefit others. I have no doubt that you do, too. I suggest you do a topical search of "gifts" and "talents" in the Topical Guide to the scriptures and read what Heavenly Father and the prophets and apostles have said about it. One of my favorite scriptures is in 2 Timothy- 6 "Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." The point is that we don't all have the same gifts. You don't have to be a domestic diva or a confident dynamic public speaker to contribute. You may have organizational skills or a nice singing voice to add to a chorus. You might have ideas that help women in other areas. We all have the need to be "enriched" in many areas of life- not just homemaking. I used to love the cultural lessons we got in Relief Society about different countries and lands. Perhaps you could even lend insight into how LDS women can relate to women of other religions and belief systems since you are a convert and grew up in a different church. I think we as LDS women sometimes struggle with that. Another suggestion is for you to really pray to our loving Heavenly Father. Ask him what your gifts and talents are and what He'd like you to do with them. Confide in your Relief Society president or bishop and ask them to help you find a way to use and develop the natural gifts you have. I don't believe that we should always defer and let the most confident members take over because sometimes it takes just jumping in and doing something hard that increases our abilities. But at the same time I don't think it's appropriate to make someone the Gospel Doctrine teacher who has a mortal fear of public speaking. Know what I mean? There is a place for everyone. And everyone has something to offer. I think just the very fact that you have come on this public forum to express your concerns shows that you can relate to others with the same problems and perhaps can encourage them. Thanks for taking the risk. I love people like you who are honest and real! I wish we could allow ourselves to be more individual in the church rather than all trying so hard to be just like each other. I resist doing the crafts at Enrichment, not just because I don't like them but also because I don't want my home to look just like others or my daughters wearing the same little skirt or jumper as 20 other little girls in Primary. I used to laugh as a teenager 35 yrs ago when I went into my friends homes and saw the exact same gold sprayed quail sitting in their living rooms. I think every ward RS throughout Utah made those. (My mother-in-law still displays hers!) When I was on the Enrichment board I encouraged the idea of a group that could just come and bring their own craft that they happened to be working on and do them together that evening-not the same craft- just whatever anyone wanted to do. After all its' the sisterhood and friendship and spending relaxed time together that is most important. Unfortunately that never went over very well. The committee always felt compelled to do some elaborate and expensive project that ended up stressing the leaders out. And often never got finished. Cant tell you how many unfinished RS projects I brought home and just ended up dumping eventually. One more idea- one of my most favorite enrichments was a service project we did where we painted soup bowls (made by a local art/pottery class at the college). They were then donated to a soup kitchen type affair. It was so fun to see the individuality and creativity coming out that night. Every bowl was different!! Didn't matter if you were artistic or not. It didn't matter what the finished product looked like. And best of all, we didn't take them home to clutter up our kitchens- we gave them back to the community. Good luck in your quest to find your place and contribute. You sound like a person I'd love to have in my ward!

I just can't see how this is possible but I won't argue it with you.

I'm not trying to make light of this. My father-in-law died at 59 when his adoring and impressionable grandson (my son) was only 7. The hurt caused by this unneccessary and untimely death was deep and just...well, we still can't figure out what was so important for him to do on the other side when he could have been such a great teacher, mentor and supporter to all his grandsons. My mother-in-law has been a bit nuts ever since. My husband has longed for conversation and guidance from his dad. I honestly can't see any good that has come from his early death. There were no miracles, not even any silver linings that I could see. (There were many when my parents died but they were much older.) I've looked for them but haven't found a single one. I hope we find out the whole story in the next life.

Oh ya! Forgot about that one.

So if I procrastinate and drag my feet on all the good things I'm supposed to do, I'll live longer?

More info on a motive. Scary, sad, crazy! All three IMO. ksl.com - Brother: LDS Church shooter was former member

I doubt she would need first presidency approval to attend a family ward instead of a singles ward. The question is, are both wards in the same stake? If so, there wouldn't be much difference in who to confess to. Another question about disciplinary councils, would the whole stake presidency need to be involved? Perhaps not.

Boy, I'd go for option 2. It could be pretty awkward talking to your boss about everything. Best of luck on making a full return. It will be worth it!

There was mention that he came in earlier in the morning angry about something, left and came back with a gun. Don't know if that's just rumor but it might shed some light on a motive. But unfortunately the two most informed people about this are deceased. Tragic!

I used to worry a little about this kind of thing when my husband was bishop. It didn't seem out of the realm of possibilities because he was the bishop over transient members that came through town. (There were lots!) If he gave the wrong answer to one of them, like "I'm sorry I can't give you any money right at the moment" my husband might be seeing the wrong end of a fist or a shotgun. There were some pretty interesting folks that wandered through town asking for handouts from the church. Some were legitimate members with legit needs. Others whose membership was pretty nebulous. Came in reeking of cigarette smoke or acting a bit loopy -"I think I was baptized about 15 years ago. Can you pay for my hotel ?" Or "My car is in the shop. I need money to get it out so I can keep traveling on my way to my new job waiting for me in ________." I'm actually surprised this doesn't happen more often. Or that we don't hear of people opening fire in church meetings with all the anger towards the church these days. I know it's happened in congregations of other churches. Anyway, my heart goes out to the slain bishop's wife and kids. What a horrible tragedy!

It worked for my daughter who got married and has given me my first grandson. No complaints here. Aside from that, she and her husband both graduated and he is pursuing a law degree in Indiana. His BYU degree didn't seem to hurt him at all in getting into grad school. We recently moved from MN where my husband worked at Mayo Clinic. Over the years there we saw innumerable med students and residents who had graduated from BYU. Mayo really seemed to like LDS men and women in their programs because of their intellect and stellar work ethic. Mayo Clinic isn't too shabby of a place to work. I think BYU is actually an asset on a resume. As much anti-Morman sentiment that is out there, I think the professional community looks past that and respects honest, hard working LDS graduates.

I think you're right about the pressure- it's a big responsibility. Some probably DO lie to get into the temple. But I don't think we have any way af knowing how many do this. I don't think we need to worry about them. They'll get the reward they deserve. I don't know all that goes on in the personal lives and in the minds of my friends, but I know of far more happy healthy marriages among them than not. I had a neighbor who wasn't a member of the LDS church but a very good person. Very Christ-like in many ways even though she didn't go to any church. (That's just a side note) Anyway she was telling me about her circle of friends from high school from Missouri. None LDS. Even though they weren't really bad kids, most of them are divorced, in prison or dead now. Out of 14 of my friends who I'm still close to, there were 14 temple marriages and only 1 divorce in 30 years. We still get together several times a year and from what I can see, all seem to be pretty solid marriages. And out of me and my 5 siblings and my husband and his three- all temple marriages and no divorces. Not to say there haven't been bumpy times, but there has been a deeper level of commitment that has held us together where the world would probably tell us to give up during those hard times. So that's MY experience. I know the stats vary depending on lots of factors.

I won't if you won't.

I'm not offended. And you aren't the only one who takes a post and picks one thing out of it to harp on or turn it into something bigger than it is. Just the risks of internet commnunication. I'm sure I do it, too. You did quote me though, and then told me to be careful- which I will be. Thank you. I don't agree that sexual orientation makes one parenthood better than another either when it comes to loving and nurturing. Never said that because I don't believe it. But I do believe that it's pretty hard to teach a principle of the Gospel (one of the biggies like celestial marriage) but live contrary to it, without continually telling your kids to do as I say but not as I do- which is what a homosexual couple would have to do. But it's probably a moot point since they most likely wouldn't believe it or teach it to their kids anyway. That just brings up Elgama's prickly ( prickly to me anyway) issue of preferring a gay friend she knows (don't know if that person currently has a partner) to raise her kids than any other couple. It seems pretty risky BECAUSE of the different beliefs. It just seems to me that if a person really believes in celestial marriage and hopes their kids will attain that, too, they'd prefer somone to raise their kids who believes the same and who is at least married to someone of the opposite sex. I REALIZE that there is much more to attaining celestial marriage than just marrying someone of the opposite gender. Believe me I know- marriage takes almost an hourly effort to keep things happy and moving upward rather than toward divorce courts. But it's pretty well understood that celestial marriage can't in any way be attained if you're married to someone of the same gender. That goes without saying. (In fact lots of things go without saying and it surprises me when someone points things out as if I don't get it.- For instance, some heteros make worse parents than gays- duh! Does that even need to be brought into the discussion? ) So Elgama, if you are reading this, can I ask you what you really believe about gay marriage and about the Proclamation? If you don't want to answer, I understand. I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just trying to understand the contradiction I seem to be reading and get my mind around it. I'm a pretty inquisitive person. To a fault! ( see- I do know I have faults) In fact, what does everyone who is defending gay marriage really believe about celestial marriage? How do you reconcile it all in your mind?

Thank you for the reminder that I'm not perfect. Don't think I really needed it. I'm well aware of many or my faults and weaknesses. I've stated them many times on this forum. "Genuine testimony" of God's plan which doesn't include same gender marriages. IF we think -"OK the Proclamation (from God) states that marriage is to be only between a man and a woman, but He makes an exception for homosexuals." Is that not faulty thinking? I don't think there is anything pharisaical about that. There are many principles of the Gospel I have struggled with from time to time. Even now. But I do have a genuine testimony of God's plan for families and marriage. Yes there are countless heterosexual couples who have done horrible things to children. But back to the OP- hopefully they wouldn't make the cut for adopting kids anyway. Some have and that's tragic. But just as heteros don't have the corner on good parenting, I would bet there are a fair number of gays who abuse their kids, too. But that isn't what the OP was about. It was about ALL else being equal among the three couples- assuming they would be good loving parents and had passed the numerous tests and investigations required before adopting. And if you looked at my first answer- I said, first come first served. I didn't eliminate the gay couple. But that would only be if gay marriage becomes the legal. " We believe in honoring and sustaining the law." Doesn't mean I dont think the law is wrong. But it would be the only fair solution according to that law. Funny how some people twist what I say into something I didn't mean.