estradling75

Exactly this.... In the minds of some the church is a horrible abusive patriarchy... And they point to things like the YW vs YM budget or the YW activities or some local leader saying something about dancing or wearing dresses as proof. When those are countered say like the cost of YW camps, or the adult budget or the leadership that plans the activities being female or that men have even more "oppressive" demands on behavior and dress that don't matter. The bottom line is if you demand all the benefits and privileges but scream oppression at any hint of obligation or responsibility you are on the path of destroying everything

Which this program does not really fix... The program is suppose to support and encourage the goals that the kids want... With the leaders working to balance the various desires.. However if the leaders impose their will and sense of what "should be" onto the program... it failed then... and it will fail now.

Not just the women either... The idea that all boys enjoy the same activities is equally off. I know when I was in young men many of the weekly activities were playing basketball in the gym.. That had no interest to me then.. it has no interest to me now. Of course I was the odd one back then (and I am still).

It can be very frustrating to have things not go according to plan, especially when you have very good reason for the way you wanted things to go. As someone who is a big planner who has seen his plans get completely derailed here is how I make sense of it and adjust. I have plans for me... The Lord has a better plan for me but I can rarely see it or understand it until afterwards... I want the Lord's plan over my plan, but when the Lord's plan overrides mine or even appears to counter it... It can be a hard thing to accept. I need to take a step back... Say "Not my will Lord, but thine be done" and then work the new situation. And yes that some time means making plans to deal with issues you had originally planned to avoid. That can be very very hard. That is a good time to double down on your faith and trust that the Lord knows what he is doing... Even if we can not see or understand it now. Sorry you are going through this... but there is a light at the end of this Trial and that light is Christ, lean on him and he will get you through.

Indeed... As for the people who arranged for them to be there... We should not presume that just because we do not see it... that those with the proper stewardship did not take the corrective actions they felt were needed and appropriate. If someone we have stewardship over is negatively impacted by such.... we can and should work with them and try to help them overcome.

1. It is the Lord's written in scriptures... All I am doing it showing it. 2. The leadership as also created https://mormonandgay.churchofjesuschrist.org/ Funny how you refused to include that one in your review. Plus the countless talks about how we love the sinner and include them as much as we can. 3. I presume you made temple covenants to support the church. The church has detailed process for handling the necessary corrections for wayward leadership. (Or those acting in official capacity) including those that have the power of public rebuking. The Event Coordinatior was acting in their official capacity. Even if they have no direct stewardship of you or me, they were still were in the bounds of their official capacity. A Covenant to support the church must include following the direction and guidance given. A. You (and me) are not acting (by posting on this forums) in the bounds of our official calling or stewardship. Thus you and I can call each other out all day for our post here without coming anywhere near the violation of the covenants we made. B. Now you also mention how some of your stewardship has become harder. That sucks. But that is also life. People will find excuses to do what they want to do. The temple staff action is an excuse for their rebellion not the cause. You want to do something useful focus on the cause... Their rebellious spirits and hard hearts. To clarify in case you still don't understand my response. Those acting within the bounds of their officially given calling. The only public rebuke is from one holding a stewardship over them. Private options of course exist. And legal options should they so apply. However when such budding apostates step beyond their official capacity (which they eventually must) (such as abuse or private discussions in open forums) then they are no longer covered

In the First Vision the Lord called the Creeds of Christianity an "Abomination" That is the strongest language the Lord uses. He uses equally strong language for fornicators. The Lord makes the equivalency. Do you consider him silly? The simple fact of the matter is the various "Abominable" churches have the advantage of history. We can see how the Lord has directed his Church to interact with them. Therefore it is normal. However the "Abominable" Homosexual groups are new. We have no history. We do not see how the Lord had directed his Church to interact with them. (yet.. that is changing) So we get hung up on the Abominable part assuming that is the most important part. Want to know how we should (re)act? Watch for how the Lord's leaders (re)act. While this action might have happened without the First Presidency's knowledge.. at some point they will become aware. The action (or lack there of) they take after gaining awareness is them owning (or disowning) the action. In this case we do not need to do anything about the action taken by the Event Coordinatior. The Lord's leaders will. That is their job. Our job is to look to our stewardship. If we see someone in our stewardship struggling because of this (or any other) issue we reach out and help them.

How is it false? The Saint Mary's Bell Choir is going to be very much advocating for and making excuses for remaining in their brand of sin (After all they think Catholicism is just fine and dandy no matter what we or the Lord thinks about it)

No you wanted to discuss what we should do about evil. My last response is first you have to prove it is evil. The only proof offered into evidence is that they promulgate a life style against the church teaching. Aka they are sinners that do not follow the church. While that is a definition of evil. The church has a history of working with many groups that met this criteria. So either you have have to be equally critical of all of the Church's interfaith outreach efforts and many community support efforts. Or you have to show more directly the evil of this choir group. Preferably more then the fact that they are sinners (already a given)... and that some times people will use what ever justification is handy to excuse themselves from following the the Lord ( not exclusive to this group)

I suppose it depend on how you define "The Church" It seems clear that the Priesthood will not be loss again. However inherent in the statement is that the Lord will remote prophets and other leaders. Which implies the possible need to. Next nothing promises that church will always grow. A large falling away of the membership seems very possible based on scriptures. Persecution from all sides seem a given. My favorite scriptural shadow of what I think the Second Coming will be like is in Third Nephi. Nephi was there when the Lord came. Technically the Church survived but it was harsh. Then the Lord came and basically reset them in the New Covenant. So the idea that the Church will survive and the Lord coming to save/redeem it are not necessarily exclusive ideas

Fair enough. The very first step is making sure we are seeing evil which is where this case fails. Groping a sister missionary (or other form of abuse) is in no way allowable within a stewardship anyone is granted. It also breaks the Law and both the Legal system and the Church have been very clear about our expected action (And while in the pass it might not have been as clear they have corrected that). Therefore both its evilness and the course of action have been given to us. This is not comparable to the Genocidal, Pedophile, Nazi, choir. Did the Event Coordinator exceed their stewardship or break the law? Does not appear so. Did the Event Coordinator try to hide it or sneak it past their local leaders.. this seems unlikely. Did the Event Coordinator follow the process we are all given to receive revelation? Namely prayerful study the matter. Make a choice. Take that choice before the Lord. Unknown. But as someone noted earlier at this level such rookie mistakes seem unlikely. Therefore your calling the action Evil is inherently making an unrighteous judgement on the Event Coordinator. If the Event Coordinator followed the process correctly then it was the right thing to do no matter who disagrees with it. This means the only clear evil in this actions is in those making the unrighteous judgement.

What part of God testing people would not include God allowing abuse to occur?

Except you are making an Assumption you can not prove... And that you are not entitled to receive guidance on. Does the Lord want the Choir to sing? I worship a God of Miracles... A God who can work with Sinners and still protect the innocent from said sinners. I also Worship a God who tests all of us. That test included letting find whatever excuses we want to use to justify disobedience. It is part of the whole shifting of the wheat and tares. You can not stop that, I can not stop that. It is the will of the Lord that it happens. The best we can do is work to strengthen those individuals that we see faltering. Anything else is beyond what God has given us to do

I am chill... You asked a question... I gave my answer. While I know you did not ask or assume that, plenty of people have and do... Thus it is part of my answer

You think I have not struggled? You think I have not had my own issues with Church leaders? Do you think I have not had to ask myself what does God want from me? Because I have. The purpose of this life is to see if we will do all that God commands. Not all that the Church commands. Notice my phrasing "If HE caused" not "If the Church caused" I happen to have a testimony that this is HIS church. That HE is at the head and that HE is in control, no matter how weak and flawed his servants are. Maybe the HE wants the Genocidal, Pedophile, Nazi choir singing in Temple square. Maybe HE does not. What I know for sure is that I do not get to vote on the matter. If it is HIS will I can only get cut off opposing it... If it is not HIS will then I can only cut myself off demeaning that HE fix the way I think HE should fix it.

And by the same token you have ZERO stewardship over them. Where is your authority to call them to account? You have none... Worse yet you are substituting your judgement where you have no stewardship over someone that God has called and appointed that stewardship to. What make you think you have divined the mind and will of God on the matter when you have absolutely no stewardship on the subject? For me it is a simple matter of Faith. Christ is in control. He guides his church. If he causes something to be done that I do not understand or agree with... it is my understanding and agreement that needs to change. And if someone God has called has messed up... He has that too. Our mistakes do not, can not thwart God's plan. If something is happening in the church that we have no stewardship over, it is not our place to act like we do and to try to assume power. Nor it is our place to treat the Kingdom of God like a Democracy and demand our voice be heard, even if we are absolutely convinced we are right... That is ark steading. If we do have some form of stewardship relationship then we can act within the limits of that relationship and we are entitled to know the mind and will of God with in those limits.

I did not assume it... you said it Unless you think I can be aware that I am in this situation but see not see it... You made the claim I did not see it right here. That was your assumption not mine. I have exactly the same worry's and concerns that any faithful parent does who is trying to raise kids in this day and age.

What makes you think it was a mistake? Your pride and assumptions. After all by your own words at that level they should not be making mistakes. The Lord has a history of commanding is followers to do hard things. The Lord has a history of testing his people. The Lord has a history of seeing who will obey in "all things" not just the things they agree with.

Really I don't see it? I have 4 kids in the teenage years... Asking me about homosexuals and trying to discover themselves... I am living in the very danger zone you are trying to use to justify your actions. I am living in what is happening now. (It is very prideful and misinformed of you to say I am not) And that is all the more reason to have Faith in and Follow the Lord with everything I have.

Fair enough... One question then... I have seen you come out in full vocal support of some random bishop, that whatever decision they might have had to make that a poster was in disagreement with needed to be given every benefit of the doubt that he was trying to do the will of God. Even if you did not 'get' such a decision. Why does a Bishop get such latitude while and "Event Coordinator" (or whatever they are/were) does not? Are they not both called? Are they not both entitled to revelation for their stewardship? Are they not both capable of Human Error? Why is is acceptable to question this leaders action/decision... but not other leaders action? Is not God leading all of us? (hmm appears I lied about just one question... more things to repent of)

Then repent and follow the right way that God has given us to handle issues in the church

Not yet... But it is how it begins... Criticizing some poor slub who is doing the best they can. But they did not come to the answer you would have gotten so we think it is ok to turn on them and question their motives and faithfulness. That behavior is like a cancer that grows until we are apostatizing. When we come upon something we disagree with in the Church we should First have faith that the Lord is in charge and is working with everyone in their weaknesses. If that is not enough then we should engage in the method the Lord has given us to report issues. Prayer and personal discussions with those that have relevant stewardship. If one needs to correct someones false understanding of the implications of the actions of church leaders... One should always go back to the scriptures and words of the prophets. Rather then question the faithfulness of leader that made the action. That is a judgement to be made by those with the stewardship to do so

I tend to agree with Vort that just because B is worse it does not mean that A is ok... He also mention becoming a conservative Joanna Brooks. Which was exactly the direction I was leading. If the only difference between us and the bloggernacle is the issues on which we feel it ok to attack the church on we are no better. Either we stand for principle that there are right and wrong ways to handle issues with have the actions the church leaders might do.. or we are hypocrites. (Seriously this thread for me for me exactly the same as we have had on people from the bloggernacle it was the same arguments only different people using them) As for those that get wrong idea about the church. That is clearly a cause for concern, but our tactics should not be to try to degrade the leadership of the church.

Incorrect... Your Sunday School President, Bishop, Stake President all have stewardship over you. They absolutely can. Brother Generic class member can talk to you directly private he can also go up the chain in private. What he should not do is grab a megaphone and shout to anyone and everyone he can reach about his issues

Wrong... The Lord either corrects it with the Word of God preached by people he has called to that task. If that fails then he chastises it with the rod of the wicked... and if that fails it gets destroyed.