estradling75

OK... Lets walk through the logic that I am going for and see were I lose you/you disagree. Dependency on someone else gives that person power over you. (See any Parent dealing with their kid) While dependency can't be totally avoided.. every functional adult should be trying to avoid it as much as possible. (aka be independent). The Government handing out money encourages dependency on the Government... and is therefore a means of the Government to increase its power over us. Power Corrupts. Corrupt Governments are incredibly hard to remove/fix

So... I was under the impression that you would be supportive of the idea that it would be bad to be dependent on some faceless government bureaucrat or politician. With that assumption the following should be pretty clear. We do have employers.. and we are dependent on them this is true. However the options we have for dealing with an employer doing stuff we do not like with our pay check.. verses the government doing stuff we don't like with our paycheck... is huge. Thus I am less dependent on employer then I would be on the government even if the amount of money was exactly the same. Case in point. One of the function Government is suppose have is contract arbitration. Thus if my employer is being shady I can bring in the Government to get corrective actions. Whereas if the shady actor is the Government that does not really work.

I also like the idea of experiments because they can show/clarify points and ideas we only think we know... However I see some issues that a short term experiment can't take into account... For one Inflation. If people have more money then the cost of goods will go up. This happens slowly but it does happen... This is why you can't see a movie for a nickel anymore. If everyone has an extra thousand then in time cost will inflate and that thousand will not cut it. This puts us right back were we started. If we are going to do this I want a fix, not something that just passes it down to the next generation. The other issue I see is this While short term experiments can be funded by donations, grants, or other voluntary means... One can't scale up without it becoming compulsory. Plus there is the simple fact that if you become dependent on anyone for anything you become subject to control because of said dependency.

I would say if your investigator is wrestling with questions about Sealing then they have seriously derailed and you need to get them back to the basics. Is the Book of Mormon True? Because if it is not then the temple does not matter.. It fails with the Book of Mormon. Is Joseph Smith a prophet? Because if he is not then the temple does not matter... if fails with Joseph Smith. Are we currently lead by a prophet? Because if we are not then the temple does not matter... if fails with the current leadership. If the investigator gains their own testimony of all three. Then the temple is also true, while we might not fully understand everything about it. The Lord teaches line upon line. He gives us a little bit and then waits to see if we will act on it. If we do then he gives us more. Anyone that wants to understand the temple has to first know the Book of Mormon is true and that we are lead by God... and be acting on that knowledge. Until that happens the spirit will not be with them because of their disobedience and faithlessness in what God has already given them.

You can be wrong if you like, but you are wrong

As I mentioned earlier I see no issue with stopping the support (giving rides) of behavior I disagree with. And being clear on why when asked. And I have no issues with informaing leadership (The Elder Quorum and Relief Society Presidents are also leaders) As for there being a double standard... That is a very real possibility. After all I was a young man once and I very likely would not have cared that an older lady was attending a singles ward with me. I am also the father of sons and a daughter and I am far more protective of my little girl then I am my boys. Is this a double standard? clearly... is it going to change? Nope I just do not see that happening.

No it is not. Moving is a fundamentally hard thing. Living in a Ward full of jerks is also a fundamentally hard thing. It is clear many people consider both "options" to be unreasonable. If your options are Move, Attend a ward full of Jerks, or rebel against the church (through inactivity or Ward hopping) The last option is clearly the easiest but it is also fundamentally wrong. Moving is a hard thing, but so is developing a Christ-like love of jerks. Those are the Right options available. Of the two I think the later is the better option but to each there own. Every individual has the right to decide which option they wish or which option they think is less hard. If the individual evaluates there personal situation and decides that moving is not an option. That is a choice. That leaves them with the Right options of loving the jerks or the wrong option of rebellion. Nope it does not change them... But if your happiness depends on others you will be miserable all your days. If your happiness comes from following Christ to the best of your abilities then you can be happy in a world filled with jerks.

You get asked and you respond. Have you asked? In my experience leaders love and adore members who are proactive in volunteering and trying to be of service... Even if that proactivity is just going up to them and asking for what you can do and how you can be in the loop for service opportunities.

Then said person is going to be the kind of powerhouse @Fether talked about and will get to know people and build friendships it reasonably short order... Thus if she does this she will solve her own problem.

So you do not unless directly asked... You are doing what everyone else in the ward is doing.. But you complain about others not stepping out or up when you yourself do not.

Should be... And if it is not... Well you can't change other people you can only change yourself... Taking a realistic look at what your options are you can either change your location (aka move) or you can change your attitude. Engaging in public fault finding over the churches position only puts one in the role of Laman and Lemuel

And how much do you care about them? Have you ever dropped everything and go help someone in your new ward?

I have for the longest time been learning that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about what you get.... its about what you give. I have found repeatedly if I am focused on what I am getting I am miserable... but if I focus on what I can give I am happy. While we all have various physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual needs... the responsibility for fulfilling those needs does not lay with anyone but ourselves. Sometimes the church or other organizations can help with these needs, but they should never be the sole provider.

My situation mirrors yours in many ways. My wife wanted to be with her family, so we moved from the place where I grew up to Utah. To Zion, to the promise land... or at least that what everyone said... Reality as it often is... is disappointing. But I did not move my family because of the sales pitch... and I really did not move to be with my wife's family, even though that was the motivation to start looking. I moved because this is were the Lord said, "This is where I want you to be." and that is a comforting knowledge when faced with the warts and all of real life.

I understood you clearly.. Since you brought the topic up my post was to let everyone know how the system currently works and what they can and should do currently. As for your proposition it sounds reasonable.. but again it is above my pay grade. Those that can will respond or not as they think best.

Yes.. I know exactly how that feels.. I was a youth that had no friends in Church and I suffered for that... I have four kids that have been the effectively sum total their youth programs and I have watched them suffer for that. And I have moved into a new ward hoping for large youth group for my kids... Only to have circumstances (and the will of God) dictate otherwise. So yes I know exactly how that feels. I also know that when I pondered and prayed for understanding on why the Lord saw fit to do that to me and my family he gave me an answer that gave me peace with the situation even though the situation itself and the suffering it caused did not change That seems clear to me... What also seems clear is God sees point of suffering differently then you do... and that is your problem.

The Lord knew the split was coming... if he said that either home would do... then either home would have brought you the necessary suffering. Now you are experiencing a version of "The grass is greener." Trying to avoid it or thinking the other path would have been easier. That is wishful and deceptive thinking.. While we can't say what kind of suffering would have come from the other house we can know for sure the Lord would have not denied you the blessings that suffering would bring you, if you endure it well.

That is totally irrelevant if you personally are following the Lord's council. Lets take your case as an example. Before you moved the council was to seek the Lord's guidance/approval/direction. If we assume you did.. while you might not have been aware of the changes coming when you made the choice the Lord absolutely was aware when he approved it. Given that it would mean you are exactly were the Lord would have you facing the challenge and trial the Lord has ordained for you to experience. The Church is not in the business of countering the will of the Lord. Thus if you followed council you can take heart that you are exactly where the Lord wants you to be even though it is hard. If you did not follow council. If the Lord in his wisdom was going to guide you elsewhere because he knew what was happening... And you did not ask, did not listen, if you put your own wisdom ahead of the Lord's... Well then you really have only yourself to blame then. The church had already spent a lot of effort in trying to help you, and as you noted people ignore it. As for suffering because of others people's poor choices that has been true since the Garden of Eden. That is why even now our Prophet is warning and forewarning us that we will not survive if we do not have and take the Holy Sprint as our guide. Either one chooses to follow the council the Lord has given us so our suffering can be turned to our good through the Lord's wisdom. Or we can choose to ignore the council and then our suffering will either break us into humility or destruction. The myth, the satanic illusion, the lie, is that one should not suffer as part of our test and trials here in mortally. That is not the promise the Lord makes, that is not the promise we see in scripture. The promise we get is that he will support us in such if we turn to him.

Here is how I see it. We have agency.. we can make choices... always. We can't see the future. Things change in ways we can not expect. But the Lord knows all. We are counciled to seek the Lord in all our actions and choices. So while we might have our choices appear to blow up in our face... if we are following the council the we are exactly where the Lord wants us to be. So when it comes to the Church it means either that we are were the Lord would have us be (even if we do not like it)... Or we disobeyed council and trusted to our own wisdom and are paying the price for that. Neither one of these cases should the "Church" or anyone but ourselves be responsible for fixing.

People really can't have it both ways. They can't say everything in my life is great except my ward... while having the Ward be simultaneously both too insignificance to be worth the effort to fix or change.. and so incredibly important and significant that it must. Pick one and act.

Bullcrap... You are saying "OH noes everyone else is moving me around like a pawn and the only way I can get what want is if some one else gives it to me." That is the mindset of misery and lack of agency. And people need to grow out of it

Nope... I expect them to be a rational person that weight the pros and cons of the choices they make. And then accept the consequences of said choice. If I think my ward sucks... but I find the costs of going else where to be too high, then I need to realize I have chosen to be in a sucky ward .And own that choice. That is the position of personal power and happiness. If however I complain that the rest of the world needs to change to fit me I will be forever miserable

There is a straight forward... church approved process for any individual or family to be in the Ward they desire... It called MOVE. Moving is not easy but it if is that important to you.. you can and the church will say nothing about it. If however one makes excuses that moving is too hard and they can not do so... They have done there own individual cost befit analysis and have determined that for them it is not worth it. I have no sympathy for some one that is unwilling to do the work necessary to get what they want... but are totally willing to complain and expect others to do more work so that they can.

In addition to that... There is the "Calling it out so you notice it" Let me give an example of what I mean. I have had the assorted aches and pains that normally come with having lived 40+ years... just normal stuff nothing special. Many years ago I read some new age mumbo jumbo that was suppose to predict things based on an off the wall trait. For me was "weakness in the lower legs" It was a bizarre thing to claim. I remembered it every time my feet hurt or my calves ached. Never remembered it when I had a head ache or a cold or anything else though. If I did not realize want was happening I would have supplied my own selectively chosen evidence that it was correct. And I would have only done that because they "Called it out so I would notice it" People tend to find what they look for... Thus if you are primed to find events happening you will... even if it means you pick it out of the random noise in your life.

So you acknowledge that the outrage was done in the absences of all the facts... And now having more facts... the position does not change. Thus a perfect example of how the facts do not matter if they do not support the opinion one has already form in ignorance of all the facts