rosie321

JOsh, There are many who have or are truly seeking truth. Some have discovered that LDS is for them and some have discovered for themselves that LDS is not for them for whatever reason. Either because they are right, didn't keep going, needed to follow their own path.... Who knows? But they still have a respectable attitude to members of the LDS faith. They are able to share their disagreeing view without any problem. To those people I am all for and have a deep respect for. I wish I could say the same for you at this moment. You say that you want evidence. You want proof. That is all you can understand right now until God strikes you with lightening , or email ... Well let me give you the evidence of why I feel your experiment is failing. Why you are unable to see the truth of the restored gospel and are missing the principles of your own christian faith. From the evidence that I see, you are not at all serious about learning truth. Or considering Mormonism is true. You are out to take down mormonism for whatever reason or mock it. You want to destroy and are of Satans side. May the following be some evidence to shine the light on that darkness for anyone who wants it. This is what the evidence shows me. 1. You stated before that you did not want to ask God again yet you are here "seeking" answers. The Spirit of Evil as stated before teaches a man not to pray. You have not left the board long enough to actually ask God today and to actually dialogue with him the or meditate on His Words that he has spoken. Your cutting quick responses back indicate that you have not done what exactly you were asked to do by those you are seeking help from. Nor have you actually tried to act upon the information you were given. If you were seriously doing those things there would not be such an immediate response claiming it wasn't true. You would have taken it and thought about it. You're seeking for your answers in the wrong place. You need to go back to God until you find the answers to satisfy. We can only say thats where I think it is. We have no clue where it is for you. You have to ask where you stand in relation to God because in the end that is what matters. "God is not mocked whatever a man reapeth that will he sow" 2. You have demonstrated that you cannot be taken at your word. You have deliberately bore false witness or deliberately misled as is viewable on all your postings. I'd love to give you the benefit of the doubt and anonomity. threw into maybe some of the inconsistancies. But it kept going. You started "fighting back" harder with your personal fact details. All which contradict themselves. Its interesting to see what intricate webs we weave when we begin to decieve. Bearing false witness is something that is in direct violation to the 10 commandments. Maybe you need to spend more time reviewing your own christian beliefs. I don't think you remember them as well as you thought you did. When you've shared your history throughout your posts it has changed every five minutes. It started out. I don't know anything. Please show me. All the time with pretty impressive arguments for someone who doesn't know anything. When people direct you to a place no I've already looked there. You're wrong. I just started my search yet in that short amount of time you state a long list of websites books etc. you have checked out. You have a mini mormon library. A pretty good website. All of this is a pretty amazing feat if you ask me for what is it less than a month of research into it. Give me a break! Also I'm not so sure if something was true and I had as much skeptism as you that I would invest the kind of money that you have into this so quickly. I would have borrowed the resources. Looked them up online. Taken it one step at a time. You read through everything like that. Also If I were serious about my search I would be a little bit more open minded and humble in my response especially to people trying to help me. 3. "By their fruits ye shall know them." For the most part you bring nothing to the table then contention and negativity. Demonstrated by the way you pounce on people telling them they are wrong or not even taking the time to actually do those things. Theres no way you could in the amount of time. Reminds me of the verses that say Satan lieth wait to see who he can devour. Do a topical study on that. The pharisees and Saducees were like that to Jesus. Nipping at him. Arguing or debating points of doctrine yet somehow missing the whole point of it all in their debating. They grieved Christ because of their lack of faith and supposed knowledge. You have not demonstrated faith. Just a lot of whining. No wonder you are not getting any answer. 4. You want lightening fast answers and will not demonstrate patience at all. Patience being one of the fruits of the spirit. Its all now or forget it. I want it now. That attitude is a fruit of the flesh. I could go on but I'll stop here. This is just the tip of the iceberg of evidence. If your serious. Get On Your Knees And Fight Like A Man. Repent to the Big Guy. Build up your faith. Then come back with your answer. Traveler I'm liking your post more and more and appreciate the fervor in which you wrote it.

Wow Traveler-what passion Unfortunately your right. Otherwise christian people can be turned murderous at the name of mormon. Many times because somebody usually a leader said thats what they should do (who wouldn't have the guts to do anything themselves and can't say what they believe). Its too bad they can't look at their own lifes and take out the log. Wow. Your post was something. I feel like a moment of silence and bowed heads is due.

Sit down. You and God. Now you have some things to go back with from the last time. Pick a topic and study it. One that would be basic to any faith. Spirit , faith etc. As far as being afraid to ask God again. Obviously you have not gotton a satisfactory answer or you would not keep asking the same question. IN the NT there is the story of the widow who is encouraged to go back before the judge. Keep asking it says. Eventually the judge will grow weary. Go to Heavenly Father. In the BOM 2 Nephi 32: it clearly says that the SPIRIT OF THE LORD teaches a man TO PRAY and the EVIL SPIRIT teaches a man NOT to pray. Although I know of no scripture in the Bible that states it so clearly off the top of my head I believe most christians would agree to that. Faith one of the topics I suggested you read about in Alma 32 says experiment on my words. Think of a scientist. They go experience lots of errors along the way. Without those errors they wouldn't know what is true or not. Would you trust a perfect study? With no error. Chances are not. You'd either think it was biased or worry what might have been missed. You are called to be a scientist in Gods laboratory. What you are looking for is the truth for Joshua. There may be failed attempts along the way. Heck some may wind up rather messy. But you have to keep trying and experimenting. Maybe you will find that the church is completely false -which I doubt. Or you may find some truths in there that you never expected. The thing is is that you have to get into the lab and start experimenting. No one else can do it for you. You are the only one to test in Joshuas laboratory the idea of whether it is true or not. Your quiting before you start or not following basic laboratory rules will cause the laboratory to blow up and you will fail. Not because it couldn't work but because you didn't try. Happy experimenting!

Its funny you said that. A similar thought popped into my head the other day. My brain just keeps thinking all kinds of wierd things. But when thinking about parenthood I was thinking about that and got scared. That even Heavenly Father lost 1/3. Then I got scared because the more kids a person has increases the odds they will have a bad one. There are bad kids born into even good families. Scared me a little

Maybe more do but will not respond because you are willing to complete some very basic steps to understanding something. From all of what you have said there seems to be 1 or more things going on here. Maybe a mixture. 1. You are just setting people up to try to shoot down whatever they say as was pointed out before. 2. You are unwilling to go through necessary steps to gain the knowledge you seek. Instead of repeating your same argument over and over maybe go back and do what I suggested a few posts above. Take a topic one that is foundational to the gospel. I suggested the Holy Spirit. Don't just say I saw it and thats it. Treat it like you've never seen it before. Spend some serious time with it to learn and comprehend it. One of the inactive members who introduced me to the church said something wise when I recieved the Book of Mormon and wanted to read as quickly as possible. Dissect it. Have the truth instantaneously handed to me. Even though he was inactive and doing things outside of church standards he said thats not what you do. Yes it can be done. But this is a different kind of book. You will miss a lot was the jist of what he told me. If you are serious then do the steps. You are not going to be personally airlifted to the mountaintops of understanding. You need to trudge up to the top like the rest of us. There are many beneficial lessons that you need to learn while doing so. I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things. I have no problem with someone who has learned and studied and honestly does not feel the same expressing their view or feeling that way. Like Jason for example. But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself. If you want to understand then at least make some effort. No wonder you are not getting any of the answers you seek

Thanks a lot Heather those comments were right on and beautifully said Thanks

Have you checked your antispam folders in your mental email? Maybe there's a message tied up in there. I think that some of the keywords faith, patience, hope, Holy spirit , to name a few are creating a system default in the communication between you and God. Suggestion maybe your next step should be picking up the scriptures-all of them since you are determining whether or not the church is true. Do a topical study starting with these topics. Read every verse you can find on it. Then pray about it. Some words to start with: Holy Spirit-since that is how the Lord will speak to you. Faith[/-since this is what people need lots of especially when they begin. Other good ones -prayer, christ, God, atonement, grace...........too much good stuff we have to think about. Let us know your thoughts are in a couple of days. Give time for your mind to ponder, meditate on and process things. God does not usually make things magically appear (although he is more than able to). The best things are usually worked at and labored for. So to look up a few verses and not really stop to hear what Heavenly Father is saying to you is not good. You will not get the answer you seek and will walk away frustrated. Because you will not be communicating in the same manner that Heavenly Father does. The messages will be confused. As you are able to communicate on basic things you will be able to understand more complex things. Just some suggestions to help you out. Blessings Rosie.

Gee thanks Dr T. now I have such a swelled head I'll never be able be able to fit through the narrow path to the celestial kingdom! Desiree to clarify my last post there is nothing wrong with personal revelation as ApostleKnight said and to express what you feel. There are situations where that does not cut it. In the case of Josh I don't know if he had lines of evidence he'd still understand. Only Heavenly Father knows the answer to that. But it would be helpful for you to gather some information to back up your claims to better give a reason for the hope within you. It will make you stronger. Blessings

Sorry Dr T that circular quote was too much thinking for me. Desiree I think everyone is just trying to tell you that its not good enough what you think when trying to defend your position. Right now no one believes what you say because they believe something different. So who is right. You have to offer evidence to support unless you are God and we never knew it :) Do you see the difference? EX. You believe Gordon Hinckley is a prophet because: God says he reveals nothing except through his prophets. Maybe point out some verses that state that. What organizations have prophets today? This is the place that I found one. See the difference? Blessings Rosie

I'm listening to the back and forth posts and I have to say its frustrating to see the divide between everyone. It's like we all trying to guard our different religious beliefs that we are missing the beauty and the oneness that lies beneath it all. I definitely think that theres more alike then different. So let me try and boil down some of the basic disputed truths down to some common denominators. Grace is involved. We cannot do it on our own. The cost is too high. If we tried the burden would be way too much. We needed the atonement to occur. That is something Christian, LDS can agree on. Although our views on when or works play in, all I believe would agree that works are important. They reflect our commitment and diligence to the choice we made. If we are not trying to follow what we believe the Lord has said. Are we really commited? Or were we ever in the first place? If we are unwilling to do what God asks then we are headed for trouble. The trinity. 3in1, 3 seperate. Does it really matter? In my opinion technicalities can be pointed out on both sides that can make it hard to understand fully. Therefore just giving us a headache. While its fun to try to understand more. I think its great that we all at least recognize that there is Heavenly Father/God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Each is its own unique entity. Each had very important roles that can benefit our lives immensely. If we can appreciate that about each other. Wouldn't it be great. Faith and knowledge. Somewhere theres a blend. We can debate forever on this one with the limited understandings we have. Truth to us is often times affected by perception. Faith and Knowledge is changing everyday as we learn. So to some degree things are constantly changing but there is also a sense of sameness. If that makes sense. There is a balance between the two which we also will probably never know the fulness of in this lifetime. Where do we go after this life? Who really knows the details of it all. Its beyond our comprehension. Therefore while we know Eye hath not seen all that is prepared for us. There are mansions being prepared for us by christ etc. who knows what exactly it will be like. He has promised us all the blessings of heaven. As far as marriage being everlasting as one of the other posters pointed out. I can't in my mortal eyes seeing God joining two together as one and then just saying no more. But then with some of the complex living situations.. who knows. Its easy to see both sides. Some believe that we will see them and be worshipping God. I guess this is just another area of stay tuned til we find out for sure. But seeing it as holy and love undying it can defineatly be a good motivater to choose someone good and work through problems. I think the important thing for us to do is as the scriptures say press forward all and see what good we can do today. In the end lets all be friends. Afterall I think we may be surprised when we see each other of oh so different faiths now are all in one place in the celestial / heavenly realms. Blessings.

Looks like you need a cyberhug. Here's sending one your way. Oh take two and come back soon. Refill prn Hope things start looking up soon. Hang in there.

DT I'm pretyy sure I understand your diagram and what it is getting at. But then again some of the directions with pictures just confuse the heck out of me. So for the thinking impaired can you please explain the is and is nots to make sure it is understood the way you meant it to be? I'm used to the Shamrock theory (ever see Nun's on the Run?) or the egg parts explanation being used to describe the 3in1 trinity. I've never seen this one before

Yes, if Ruth chose to follow another God rather than Elohim the Isrealite God or I AM. She would be forsaking God of the OT. It was just a thought that popped into my head and gave me a what if moment :) Though at this point obviously it would be all theoretical since whats done is done. Was interested in what others might think anyway.

I've heard the story of Ruth and Naomi many times. One of the biggest moments remembered and gleaned from it is Ruth's faithful sacrifice. When Ruth tells Naomi that her God will be hers. Now we know that Naomi's God was the God of Israel. She recieved much honor for making the decision to care and stay with her despite the fact that she could be free to find someone of her own faith and custom. Now this thought popped into my head. Accepting the condition that anything would be possible. Do you think we would feel differently had Ruth followed Naomi and chosen outside of the God of the House of Israel? Would her decision garner the same amount of respect? She was still being faithful in fact maybe more so considering the time period and culture. Curious as to what others think.

We believe too that all have fallen short and stand in need of repentence. Even after the moment of our first decision or conversion to the gospel we will still make mistakes. We need to continually repent and thereby cleansing ourself from the sins that do so easily beset us. It's not a one time thing. Every time we sin we deny Christ. Refer to 1st , 2nd and 3rd John. The latterday scriptures are full of repentence quotes. If you can get a copy of the BOM or look it up on the internet check out Alma Chapter 42. Awesome chapter talking about mercy and justice. Try to find it and read the whole thing. Its too long to write out. But I will write out 42: 29 And now my son I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance. A couple of verses from Mosiah 3 "And moreover I say unto you that there shall be no other name given nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men only in and through the name of christ, the Lord onimpotent" For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of christ the Lord and becometh as a child, submissive, meek , humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to the father." (This is LDS conversion :) ) I agree fully that the fruits of the spirit will begin to be reflected in a follower of Christ. If they are not there or not being developed then the growth is one of the flesh. That is also why I am drawn to the LDS faith. It is a progressive thing. This leads me to believe even more strongly that it is more closely the Will Of God. We can know that we are on the path to salvation but yet also know that it is necessary growth and repentence.. Salvation is not automatically given by saying a few words. The Bible makes that clear. Not every one who cries Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 25 in as much as you've done it to the least of these you've done it unto me. There were many being cast out there to because they rejected the least of these. But if you are continually growing in the gospel you are developing the fruits of the spirit to much greater levels and appreciation. Faith, patience, peace, joy...love. You understand much more powerfully those fruits of the spirit than just a few word prayer. It goes to your very core. The spirit gives us personal assurances and reminders of eternal hope. Sometimes it seems that its all or nothing. If you have works then no grace/atonement applies. Its a blend of the two. Once again faith without works is dead. If works had no relevance even the Bible itself would not have so much emphasis on them. It is by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. Following the parent image of God there is a big difference between a child seeking to do bad and one that is striving to do good. Thank goodness God will be the final judge with our mediator being Christ hopefully. In Doctrine and covenants we are warned to repent so we don't have to suffer as Christ did. The verses are endless. We are called to repent, trust in Heavenly Fathers will, understand the atonement, and continually seek to do the will of God enduring to the end. Best wishes as you progress on your path. :)

The question everyone has to try and figure out for themselves is what was the origional gospel? What will draw you as an individual closer to Christ and the gospel that he lived and died for. There are many views on that as displayed on these boards. Also another matter of subjection to some degree. I agree the death, resurrection are the basis of the faith. With the death and resurrection brought hope to all of us. We can come to Christ. Works does not eliminate the need of the atonement but can actually make one appreciate it more. As you endure to the end and do different things you actually understand the power of what exactly Christ did to a deeper level. It's easier to "know" God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ. It is valued all the more. The weekly sacrament is a reminder of the sacrifice of Christ and our baptismal covenants. Baptism in itself is in similtude of Christs burial and resurrection. So I don't really think some of the basic concepts are as different as you might think or the heart of what we believe is as different as you might think. To me your quote shows me we are teaching the same gospel but maybe in different manners. No different than the different christian denominations. :)

Hello Rosie, Thank you :) Thanks for sharing these personal details. It helps me better see you as an individual. Now below let me comment and respond to some of your questions in my words. With knowledge and testimony that I have buried inside of me or have had buried inside of me. I would be interested in knowing more specifically what those beliefs are if you would care to share. It helps me understand our differences and be more respectful of them. Point out things of the LDS faith that may be of interest to you. If there is one thing I've discovered is that people are more alike then unalike and despite differences of opinion can get along well. I think this site demonstrates that well. I will never push you to belief anything but I will "give you a reason for the hope that is within me." Research can be good. I've defineately have done my share. I could probably with the knowledge that I have present most of the good reasons why and why not to become LDS. But there's something different from believing something and living it. I believe that ultimately truth is based on faith. Faith is based on things that are true and one would assume research would proof it beyond a doubt. Research can back up things but in and of itself is inconclusive. It is based on things unseen. Things change each day. Look in the last week we lost a planet Sorry had to pause for momentary laugh at my other post. We don't have all the knowledge. Many times I don't think we are ready for them. We defineately get them line upon line. I believe this is in part so we will continually seek the answers from God. As sometimes a little child asks questions that seem very easy to answer. But as adults trying to answer them sometimes have a hard time sometimes breaking them down to a level that a child can understand and not be more confused. This does not mean it is any less truthful. You may find that here. We have to get down and pray about things , cleanse ourself from all the junk holding us back, and renew a right spirit within us. So we can hear and respond to the Lord calling us. The disciples heard the Lord say Come follow me. They didn't have a whole body of evidence there to support this Man JesuS and what He was teaching. Yet something beckoned them to come. Many people thought that Jesus was crazy. Others attacked Jesus because of what he taught. Yet they proceeded to follow Christ. Throughout the NT you can see them making mistakes and confused as ever at times. They defineately did not know all the answers. This Man did not even make sense to them at times. After He died they scattered. But when the Lord came back they heard His voice and once again returned to be with him. In the end they never forsook the gospel (all except for Judas). Most even died for the gospel. Some important truths I feel important to remember in your quest for truth. It is a life long process. There are many things that cannot be understood or proved at this time in the same way as other scientific proofs may be. The focus with religion is more of the heart then the brain. (not to say you have to shut down the brain completely). For the Wisdom of God is foolish to man. That's a verse I like in the NT. You may be called or drawn to a place. At the bottom you shared that you felt drawn to this LDS who was struggling. It motivated you to seek answers. To try and learn more. Maybe this drawing is in actuality your calling to a place the Lord wants you to be. When I started out I was not looking. I was already part of a faith. But something drew me to the LDS. Good or bad thats up for you to decide. Learning will happen line upon line. As I've been a member of the church for some time, I've come to learn answers in deeper levels. Things I have sometimes had to put on hold all of sudden take on a level of deeper understanding. I can see things that probably would be hard to explain to someone outside of the LDS understandings and who has never experienced the basic steps nor have a basic respect and understanding of the LDS faith. As you step forward there is nothing extraordinarily new. But the understandings grow. Just like many of the educational concepts are repeated over the different school years. The understandings defineately change from kindergarten to college. Amen. From all my experience in I guess you might call traditional christianity and LDS I think we are more alike then it might seem. While traditional christians say that you need to have faith and christ and make a decision to follow Christ there are also many wonderful things that these faiths do and teach. They do push you to deepen your relationship and mature in the gospel and your relationship with Christ. They get you to the party and leave you on your own so to say. But theres no guarantee you're not going to have a lot of people wandering around. Will they know anyone at the party...? The LDS on the other hand believe that we have faith, turn to the Lord and repent of our sins. Then we are baptized where are sins are washed away. An outward sign and as Christ said necessary to fulfill all righteousness. Then we are given the gift of the Holy Ghost. It focuses on the works. For faith without works is dead. Our works help to show our sincerity and faith. There is as you know a danger in this because it can build up a false sense of pride. But by doing certain things we can also come to understand Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ better. For example its more difficult to understand your parents but when you become one yourself. Its easier to understand why your parents did what they did. Its exciting to know that we can learn more each day. Have molded into our lives those things that will help us learn to love God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and the gospel principles. Many of the things taught and expected are for the temporal and eternal benefit. We are still given the promises of Gods grace to carry on to the next step. For its by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. God has commanded us to be perfect. To cleanse out our lifes. Sins stand in the way of Heavenly Fathers presence. Think how you feel when you do something bad. A sick feeling enters in. We don't want to turn to God at that moment in time. We feel a separation. The LDS church encourages us to throw those sins away continually. Not just at the decision time. We do this so we can know and understand God better and not have anything standing in our way. We are told in scriptures that the way would be narrow. Not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter into his kingdom. There are many who claim they are saved but their works certainly aren't a reflection. Salvation is an individual thing. We are encouraged to do all that we can do. These things to the LDS reflects that more is expected than a decision time and we must always be striving towards it. My personal search in the Bible, the one reliable source of christians, when I was in "traditional Christianity" seeking whether the LDS church was from Satan or God I found that these main points were clearly pointed out to me and often times repeated. Especially in the NT -Denies the Christ -Puts in a mediator between you and God -Teaches not to marry -Abstain from meat -"Pure Religion is this...." can't remember the whole verse (and I promised to do this from my memory so I won't cheat) but it says something to the effect of helping the fatherless and widow. If memory serves right. So boiled down with other verses will be helpful and building in the long run. -Will demonstate or encourage the fruits of the Holy Ghost in your life. Things of the flesh will encourage the works of Satan. I'm certain there were others that stood out at the time. But these are the main things that stand out in my mind at the moment. Scarily so I found myself questioning the belief system I had held onto for so long. I could think of one church that could fit into most of these categories. That being the Catholic Church which most other Christian Churches derived from including the denomination that I was a part of. While the creeds recited still say believe in the Holy Catholic Church I guess it means something the spirit of Christianity so to say. But if that wineskin was bad then to me there needed to be a new one in my mind. There was no restoration ever there. That left me out seeking and the LDs church was a strong possibility with the beliefs and understandings I had gained. (please note I am not trying to condemn other faiths. I do belief there are many truths and some great, sincere people found in them. Although I may disagree with some of their doctrines or practices). The gathering of the House of Israel is another important part of the Bible. But not necessarily an indicator of the antichrist spirit. No other Christian church really emphasizes that as strongly as the LDS from what I've found. It is not a concept readily discussed in the Christian faiths. Although I understand what the beliefs would be having been a non LDS christian. Another concept was the one of organization as I go into more detail on in another part of the post. I believe this was an important concept to the Christian concepts. [ That's great that your reading the Bible and listening to positive tapes I hope. As far as not attending church I do believe it is important to gather together with other believers. Each one of us has been given special gifts and talents. Some 1 some 10. We should be developing them and continually growing. Also sharing them with others. I believe the church can be an added protection to us in our christian walk. Hopefully we will be learning or sharing positive things with others that will help everyone reach their goals, dreams and true individual path in life. I believe in Ecclesiastes it talks of how easy it is to break one stick but harder to break a number. We need strength and encouragement. sometimes redirections. I truly don't believe that we will ever find an ideal church here on this earth. Christs disciples couldn't even get it together and grieved Christ often. There's too much humanity involved in church. Too many things that we will never understand. So many questions with unprovable answers in the way that humans are used to get them. Have you ever read the Screw Tape Letters by C.S. Lewis? Maybe read the book by Phillip Yancey about church why go or something like that. I can't remember the name. It is written from a christian perspective and may give you some insight about why to go somewhere. Organization and structure is important to Christ. When He was on the earth He appointed the apostles, the 70.. etc.. If the need for organization ended why did Christ go through all this effort? When Judas died he was promptly replaced with another one of the 12. We also see the organization still was effect in the time of Paul (Ephesians). So there is an organizational structure that is important. Keep digging and drawing closer to God. Maybe this is for the path and maybe not. Hopefully it will draw you closer to the truth it can also draw you away. I stumbled on Jeff Lindsays webite by accident once. I love it too! One thing I think you will find as you address the complex questions amd seek answers from different places is that that quote is pretty on. I might change it or add other wording too. Most is ridiculous when you start understanding basic Mormon concepts. It is also very imflammatory and demeaning. They are presented in a very antagonistic one sided way. I wish you were more into learning then debating. I believe as the scriptures say "seek first to obtain my word." Before you start debating anything mormon please try to understand why people are LDS. Weigh it out in your mind. Maybe go to an LDS church. Help out on a service project. Don't just look at 2 deminsional responses. Try and live it. Research and provable points are one thing but as you have found in your own christian faith sometimes everything can't be proven in the normal way. Continue to learn more. Than decide. Agreed. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Sorry I got a little wordy in my response. I just tried to word it as understandably as possible. Same here. Just understand that sometimes you may not get the answers you seek instantanously. We are called to labor diligently. Keep digging and seeking. By doing so you will get the understandings needed to be able to comprehend the answers. Keep learning before you assume anything. Peace be with you Rosie.

While I'm really interested in JoshuaK's response anyone can feel free to answer them. :) Maybe give JoshuaK a chance to answer first though since it is closed book .

JoshuaK I'd really like for you to answer some questions for me. So far you've addressed the site almost as Joshua and an army of others behind you waiting to attack any comment made or attempt to explain things to you. Intentionally or unintentially the spirit reveals it. Speaking for LDS people in general we don't like to think that our sacred things are up for attack, are trivilized or ridiculed nor do we like the feeling that we are being set up for some kind of crusade attack. That is what it appears you are doing. To change that negative impression. Let's take a step back. I'd really like to get to know the true JoshuaK better. Not some rehash of what other people think. You may feel that you have answered some or all of these questions in other places (Since I have been listening to your posts and have a good idea of what your answers may be). Please humor me and answer them again in the tongue of Joshua and from the heart (I'm too lazy to read through all the other posts :) ). Please no references to outside things. This is a closed book quiz so to say. Just give me your gut answer, as people just sitting and talking about things would do. In general conversation you wouldn't have a reference library at your fingertips. So please, I want to know what it is that YOU truly think about these things. ........ Are you in school? If yes, what are you studying? Do you have a job/career? What type of work do you do? What are some of your interests? What are truths that you hold dear? How do you know them to be true? What goals are you striving for in this life? You stated that you were christian. what attributes do you believe each Christian must have? What do you think would fit the definition of a non christian or antichrist? What church or denomination do you affiliate yourself with currently? Is church necessary in your beliefs? If so what would your "ideal" church contain? Why are you drawn to look at mormonism? What do you like and dislike mormonism? Thanks. I look forward to reading your responses. Rosie

From my own individual interpretation and belief. Here's a very brief summary. 1. How/why did you become a believer of Mormonism? 2. What is your main attraction to your faith? Because it gave more direction to the religous path than all the other christian faiths. Its not just say a prayer, try to live a good life, try to find a good church out of the million and one+ out there kind of faith. As someone highly drawn to christian values, morals, and concepts. The LDS faith highlighted different concepts that I believe were ignored, not satisfactorily addressed or left out completely from the average christian faith. The organization appeared to be closely tied to the one that Christ set up. The one that was maintained even after he died by the apostles. When Judas died a replacement was found (in Acts). Thats how important it was. It also strongly emphasized goodness that would be in the world of christ. So I guess ultimately it cut a more clear cut path to where I wanted to go thats why I joined. 3. What do you think that Evangelicals believe about Christianity? (God/Jesus/Salvation/Bible). While there are different views among the average christian (you will even find that in the LDS) overall God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one being or entity so to say-not three seperate as in the LDS faith. God created the earth. Men fell and through Adam sinned. "All men have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God" Therefore God came down in the form of christ to die and save us. The Bible is the word of God. It is the only word to base the faith on and go back to. It is the final, authority. Salvation cometh only through Christ to those who believe on him. Once you accept that you are a sinner and accept Christ through a faith prayer you are saved. After that you try and do the right thing and also find a church. 4. What do you think are the serious differences between Mormonism and Christianity? Why? The emphasis on order and oneness, the church organization, the priesthood restoration, continued revelation for the church body as a whole (Additional scriptures BOM, D&C, POGP and a prophets leading), temples, baptisms for the dead by proxy, heaven so to say divided up into three degrees of glory.... The LDS have a 7 day a week faith. There is no time to let down. You are expected to continually learn, grow and progress. This leads you to come to know God , Christ and His Gospel better or if not careful into a legalistic nightmare. 5. Briefly, what are your views regarding: a)Highest Source/Authority (writings, leaders, etc), b)God, c)Jesus, d)Spirits, e)Humans, f)Salvation, g)Church/God's People, h)Future/Afterlife. As far as God, Jesus, Holy Spirit-3 seperate entities but are unified in purpose. The book of John talks about it a lot. Jesus was working to do the will of His Father in Heaven. We have a childlike relation to HF and are continually learning, growing and progressing. He wants the best for us but cannot let us continue on bad paths. For the good LDS faithful the progression is focused on more then the afterlife . But as far as that you will be placed where God wants you based on your faith and diligence. I know the salvation concept is a very difficult one for christians to understand about LDS. We don't worry about the afterlife. We have faith it will all work out. No need to fear. Heavenly Father has made us many promises of protection and help along the way. So we don't have to spend all our time worrying about it. I'm sure from the Christian faith you are already aware of many promises from the Bible. One from the Book of Mormon- It is by grace ye are saved after all that you can do. We are also told number of times to endure to the end. Christ said to Peter after he had been following Christ for a while I pray for you that you might be converted. Those things indicate something more than just a moment of decision. In the LDS faith everyone has a chance to learn and understand the gospel whether in this life or the next so God is not just seeking to destroy people and send them to hell for no reason. He has made many promises to us. We just need to keep growing in His grace and not spend all our time focusing on the next life but what we need to do today. We will continue to have the truth revealed to our hearts and have continued revelations. They did not stop with the Bible or those men of faith. That makes God all the more real to us. If it stopped years ago then how important are we? 6. Do you now, or have you ever had any doubts about Mormonism? If so, what are those doubts, and why? Yes- cultural norms, the one way mentality that serves as a protection can also be a curse if outside the will of God. There are at times things that don't make sense. Although they are as possible as anything else in scriptures or other faith beliefs. Dealing with my own imperfections. Not looking enough or focusing on the promise of God. Letting other peoples imperfections get under my skin. Self doubt. Holding onto or hiding the weaknesses and bad stuff at times rather then letting it go quick enough. Not focusing enough on the positive..... I hope that brief summary helps you out some. There's volumes that could probably go between but hope thats enough to help you out.

Sorry Dr. T , but you came to the wrong place to question hanging chads. That might work any place else but hanging chads are irrelevant here . This is LDS Talk. Proporting LDS values. LDs operate under different rules. Its the church with the truth and restoration. The most correct. Don't join any other... Don't you know the truth that was lost yesterday was just restored through his family's faithful revelation? :) . I'm sure they felt a burning something on this one or at least they should of. (or I will soon for these comments. What that burning is is yet to be determined. But hey thats an extra bonus for LDS-no hell! I may just need to steal some kind of beam for that outter darkness though. It may be kinda dark in there. Who knows maybe its on Pluto Maybe we should double check with Pres. Hinckley :) . Ok I defineately need some sleep before I totally get myself beyond help.....

Palerider, all plutonians that ever might have been wish to communicate thanks to you and your family for your overriding vote on their behalf DrT well I would hazard a guess its all ok with the voting. After all there is the LDS priesthood holder involved :) But then again... :) You guys are too funny

[ Ok my choice was words was bad and exaggerated. Was an attempt at starting some somewhat thoughtful discussion on a different topic.But you have to admit on our planet of so many people 2,500 is miniscule :) Most people probably never even heard of this union before or knew of their not so little convention .. The fact that remains to me is that these people are determining truth for everyone with whatever guidelines they make up. Truth that alters the way people think about things and what people are taught. It may be scientifically based and true but its a power that I am concerned about people having. While outter space really doesn't make much difference in every day life to the average person. Thus the reason that most people never heard of it. What difference might it make in more important or relevant areas? Just something that made me go mmmm.. I don't know We're losing whole planets right before our eyes. :)

Amazing. While it really doesn't make too much difference what its called to me personally in and of itself. It's just that Pluto has been known and taught to be a planet for so many years. Today it was voted on not to be a planet by a few people (who I'd hazard a quess most don't even know who they are). Most people probably did not know the vote was going on. Nor have any say. Yet now because of their vote, it will now be "airbrushed"out of all textbooks. I'm not saying the scientists who determined this were right or wrong yet it defineatly raises a lot of interesting thoughts. Like how different truths have evolved over time or maybe even hijacked by the "chosen" ones. That truth seems to be no more than the culturally accepted thing of the time, able to be voted on. If it is not accepted by the top it is just voted out and "airbrushed" out of our minds. How a few people can determine truth for everyone.....Amazing. What really is truth?

Question if we are punished for our own sin and not for Adams transgression then why do Men still work by the sweat of their brow? Women still have difficult labor and men ruling over them? ....................................................................................................................................................... Some off the wall thoughts Or are we punished for Eve's transgression rather than Adams.? Have we just been weighting ourselves down needlessly for centuries and millenia? Are middle age mommas boys or welfare abusers actually overcoming the curse or living to their full potential? Women ARE starting to kick back and take over... Lets not forget the cocktail of drugs available for childbirth if you have the right doctor.. even then no way around pain either then or the next century after.