rosie321

Very interesting thoughts enjoyed. Looks like one of those gospel round and round we go's until the formation of one unified body at the end :) Ever feel like we're not only dogs not only going after our own vomit (as per scriptures) but dogs chasing our own tails too?

I've heard things explained this way and it makes sense. I tend to agree with this line of thought. God uses principles of science. God knows what will happen before hand because of time being relative and His ability to go beyond time. Others can explain the scientifics better than I. But basically God can use science to see in advance what will happen and share that with us. He can literally see beforehand because of the relative time. That is how prophecies are able to be so detailed and the prophets are able to see actual events before they happen. We still have choice but God knows what our choice will be beforehand. Our paths are known because they've already been seen but we still always do have choice. As you said everything was created spiritually first. Isn't that how we everything happens? Right down to the "As a man thinketh so he is"..... lots of references in LDS resources

Mom of Jcchlsm I agree with you 100%. To me there was always more to the story that we should know. I just could never find a satifying rest of the story elsewhere besides the LDS faith. This is defineately an interesting area of discussion. I'm glad you brought it up A-Train. I must say I've become very biased but took time to go back some and search. Its started interesting conversation with my husband who is non LDS christian concerning this. I'm sure we'll be speaking more of it and looking at it more :) He pretty much agrees that the focus is on post fall. Most don't care about the prefall because whatever was before will not be what is to come. That part is done and over. Eye hath not seen ear hath not heard all that God hath prepared for us in the future. We diligently focus our attentions on God. There will be a new heaven and earth one day. So what was will never be again. Why be concerned over it? As far as Satans fall he emphasized the christian perspective that Lucifer was an angel of light and angels were celestial beings and different from man. The scriptural references to Lucifers fall is to show where he came from and that Lucifer had it all and threw it away because of wanting to act in a way that would give him the glory outside of Gods will. Some christians I know believe that this is why God created man to keep them at a different level. Through the fall, man disobeyed God too and sought to have the mind of God therefore were cast out. But he was not at the level of Lucifer and He had mercy. Many don't want to ask too many questions or dwelve to deep , especially in prefall matters, so as not to fall into a trap. After all look what happened to Adam and Lucifer. (The non-LDS christian world does not have LDS knowledge that Adam repented to God or that it was part of the plan). For the most part in the christian world Adam is the type of what not to do. The bad side of things. How to mess up your life 101 :) . Christ was the good side of things. Redeeming man and all. There was accomodations made from the start for the fall, through the atonement. Since men could not die in their sin and return to heavenly father, as all christians would agree that is why the Tree of Life had the cherubims placed to guard it and they were cast out. This was the provision and saftey net in place. Having grown up around non-christian believes, it just amazes me how many truths are found from Satans fall, creation, pre-fall and fall. The more I read, listen and learn I guess I just can't help but see it anyway but the LDS. Its not a taboo area. God wants us to know and learn to be obedient. It really does bring peace and comfort to see the truths lined up the LDS way and in respect to God. To see the truths lined up from beginning to now and to the future promises and see the power in the details. There really seems to be a lack of this knowledge in other faiths. Before I came across the church while I always yearned to know more it didn't seem like such an important matter. But now........ I stand all amazed...... So many truths lie within that time..... It's amazing how perspectives change when eyes are opened to new things that tug the heart strings :)

This is a major difference between LDS and non -LDS. Having been a nonLDS christian for many years, I have found no one to give a satisfying answer to this area. I really believe from searching no one really knows definitively. There is only speculations to my knowledge. It is an area that no one dares to officially go and share with the general populace. The only thing that is of agreement is that is was a perfect time of communion with God. Adam and Eve had it all and blew it. The concern and focus is the time after the fall. That men fell short of the glory of God and needed someone to save them. We are all sinners. Christ was the man to save us. Our duty is to follow and obey and not speculate farthur. God will show us what we need to know or it might be revealed in the eternities. But we should not seek it. The quest for knowledge such as this is what God Adam and Eve in trouble. We should be working to follow God and humble ourselves before him instead. As stated above this is one issue that many have against the LDS faith because we seek to know and expect that God will reveal things to us and give us things. That was an interesting idea you pointed out A-train about God giving Adam dominion over the earth(gave him his own planet) and Eve (eternal marriage). I never thought about it that way before. Most would agree that God knew that men would probably fall and it was part of some greater plan. So he had the atonement as part of the plan to redeem us. But our duty is to try and follow God and not seek to know those mysteries. That God will reveal to us what he wants us to know in His time. In terms of prefall doctrine I think you are going to be really hard pressed to find any agreement on it or find many strong views on it. John Milton's Paradise Lost is the only detailed thing I've found that really dares to enter into that area and it isn't considered doctrine. I found it interesting reading and it lended support to many LDS concepts though :) Just to note I was not trying to bash other christian faiths in the above post and truly apologize to anyone if it came across that way. Looking back I did go kind of gung-ho and strong:( . As I stated from the beginning I have searched into this area myself and did not feel I recieved an adequate answer in christian circles. From much study I have grown very passionate that so far the LDS has the boldest and most probable answers concerning it. That this is most likely where many of the lost, or missing precious truths spoken of during Joseph Smiths time are found and why the restoration was necessary. This area contains many of the fundamental truths of the gospel, imo. What better time to bring forth such precious truths when God is actively trying to restore and bring His children home? To gather them together back to the prefall state? Its difficult not to get too overly excited about something that seems so exciting. I truly did not want to bring offense though to our non-LDS christian friends. (I hate the term non-LDS christian but don't know what else to call it without having to think about every other possible christian faith and then write it down :) }

The whole idea of the pre fallen world is an area of doctrines that keeps me LDS It's one area that I haven't gotton a satisfying answer any place else that makes sense. Being such an important, pivital part of the gospel it should. Only basic LDS concepts help it make more sense for me and brings peace. Some basic principles of non LDS christian faiths that I"ve grown up learning We have an all knowing, all powerful God, perfect God God created the earth-that is when everything began. Before that there was nothing but God out there There are differing views when the angels and Satan come in. Most faiths will acknowledge that Satan was cast down from Heaven before creation and took a host of heaven with him. Others believe the Heaven that Satan was cast out from was actually in the garden of Eden. I have come across a rare few that believe Satans casting down has not officially happened yet. It is something that John the Revelator spoke of and it will not occur until after Christs 2nd coming. Universally I have found discussions of Satans fall an area that most do not like to speak about or discuss since it dwelves into unknown and speculative areas. The idea is expressed that men should not go there. It is beyond our comprehension (Despite God asking us to know Him , telling us "to seek him and ye shall find"... ) Some believe that God was lonely and that's why he put people on the earth to keep him company. He prepared for them the perfect place -the garden of Eden. They had daily communion with God. God only asked Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit and they would be there forever. All fell apart after they ate of the fruit of the tree. From that point on we have all become sinful and bear the burden of Adams sin. Before the fruit was eaten there was no death, sickness, pain... just closeness to God. Where some of my major struggles come in on believing the nonLDS views of the prefall. -Why would God really make people in the first place from a non LDS perspective? -The traditional non LDS christian view of God. With him being this supernatural, incomprehensible entity that we can not begin to understand. (when the scriptures ask us to know of Him to learn of him. That eternal life is "to know God the Eternal Father and His Son in whom he hath sent"NT....) -Why would an all knowing and all powerful God create people with the fatal flaw of choice? Knowing that they would not keep His commands? From this perspective it seems like the cards were stacked against people right from the start. Why should Adam and Eve be punished? God made them imperfect and leaves them with an evil predator lurking about? Then to make up for Adams mistake (and His for leaving Adam alone with Satan) men are put through many tribulations over the following years but are promised that the solution is His Son to pay the price (oh wait one part of this entity called God who is going to morphosize into a human to show he cares)????? Why should God be angry at Adam and Eve and punish generations forward? It makes God out to be some kind of crazy entity. Not one worth of emulating IMHO Where did sin and satan come from? How could Satan take a third of the host of heaven with him? Sounds like some kind of heaven . But from the LDS perspective it really makes more sense especially with other key doctrines-trinity, creation itself, the plan of salvation, free agency, laws of nature .... An important part of the fall to christians is that many believe that the quest for knowledge and seeking to be like God is what got Adam and Eve in trouble. That is why many faiths struggle with the LDS concepts that encourage us to follow in Gods footsteps and become One with Him. Many feel that LDS are going to hell or be cast out eternally for it. Thus you have films against the church with names like the Godmakers. I disagree strongly with that. It is a willing choice to follow God and to work within Gods will rather then against (as PC pointed out). God wants us to be like Him by doing His will and following His commands and offers us all He has. God is bound by laws too and operates under them. He sent His Son to pay the price because he could not. His Son willingly and lovingly died for us so we could return again to Heavenly Father. The love that just pours out from this version of things really hits the heart. Parents in particular can really understand the pain that Heavenly Father must have gone through in watching His Child die. Understanding, joy, peace, and love grows. Gifts of the Holy spirit not Satan. The whole picture of the prefall just becomes a a whole lot clearer and easier to understand through LDS eyes to me. God wants us to know Him and gives us the knowledge and understanding we need to come to know him. We are His children but have sinned in our chosen free agency. God wants us to turn to Him and to know Him. Many christian people fear that LDS try and limit God to our human understanding. Two thoughts come to mind on that as mentioned before. 1st the more I understand the "simplicity" of things the more complicated it looks to me. 2ndly God wants us to know HIm and to understand. He has even said this is eternal life. Why would he punish us for trying to do what we are asked? He gives us our minds and hearts to be able to understand His spirit. We will not be operating under our own understanding when the spirit is alive in our hearts. The spirit will show things the way they are. Pc good post. Much the same as I've learned The topic is an unusual one. I do not recall ever having a lesson in Sunday School, via sermons, in college, or in graduate school on this topic. However, I'll just give you my impressions. Nature became corrupt. Weeds, sickness, natural disasters, and the degeneration of the human body. Also, we came to "know evil." And, indeed, sin enters, demonstrated hugely by the story of Cain and Abel. Some would argue that it happened exactly when God ordained it to happen. I would argue that God "knew," but that his perfect will was for us to remain unfallen. In other words, we did not "fall" into God's best for us, but OUT of it. This would be a matter of absolute speculation. However it would have been, it would surely be better than it is now. The quest for the knowledge of evil included the promise that they would be like God. If we are like God, then we do not need him. In essence, the Serpent offered rebellion. The Creator was rejected in favor of independence. Adam and Eve willfully chose rebellion against God. So that we could willfully chose to love him, worship him, and serve him. Additionally, when we are glorified to live forever with him, we will never again question why loyalty to God and absolute zero-tolerance for sin is necessary.

Lt04 I hope that you don't understand that I wasn't mocking your decision to gather information and making sure you have the facts and information correct. I do the same thing myself and it has helped me. Asking questions to the seemingly obvious or expressing concerns isn't always bad. As you mentioned you may learn from a different perspective or just reinforce what you thought you knew.My only concern was that you might fall into a trap of having to have everything laid out or become wrapped up into the legalistics causing you to miss some important gospel things.. It is important to be concerned about the legalities. As you pointed out many times heartaches can be prevented. On the other hand sometimes I think to some degree faith requires us to take risks and to go where our eyes can't see. YOu are going to need a lot of faith at times due to your circumstance if your are to stay strong in the LDS church and go against the popular legalistic opinions (like your not being married in the temple). You are going to have to put your faith and trust onto God and go places sometimes that you can't see ahead of time. Faith is the first principle of the Gospel:). An edit to the first line- I hope you DO understand:)

Nice thought. I think you know more than you think you do. However, as to your last statement there are some obstacles, no matter how much homework you do beforehand just have to be handled on the spot by the sweat of the brow, and with lots of hope and prayers. :)

Your situation with your wife is unique. So that leads me to some questions. First are you wanting to stay with your wife and honor those commitments? Does she want you to stay with you despite your religious differences? Some marriages just cannot handle the religious divide. So far I get the impression that you both are in it for the long haul which is in accordance to what scriptures would have you to do. 1st Corinthians 7:12-16 is something for you to read. 7:14 indicates to me that your children will be protected and made holy despite a situation that could render them unclean or lost. 2nd What good is the salt if it loses the saltiness? I think you need to stay faithful to what it is you believe. I don't think that you should stop especially being that your wife is ok with it. If at some time you don't believe the LDS church is right then leave it. From what I've seen you came here with a struggle of what to do to make your less than ideal family situation right in the sights of the Lord. You also came here to vent your frustrations about the churches social aspects. Not of key doctrines or anything. That is what troubles you. Why can't you just go to your wifes church where all know your name? Where they teach good values.... But that isn't good enough for you. Inside you know there is more for you at the LDS church right now. To deny that part of you right now would do more harm ultimately for your family than good. You'd be miserable. So my advice is to stick with the church. Even if the church were to be false I think there's a lot of truth there that could benefit your family. I think you'll learn a lot of things that will bless your family than hurt it. I guess my advice would be stick to the basics in the gospel at church. Avoid those things that weigh you down and don't be overcommitted in a way that will hurt your family. Where the church is becoming priority over your family. Do good whether it be with activities that make you feel comfortable in your church or hers. or even on your own. Seek understanding with your wife. Your children will be blessed by your righteous example of seeing you stick to what you think is true despite an easier path. 3rd. Your children have the ultimate choice of where and what they do. Don't think honest mistakes that you make will doom them. God knows your heart and theirs. He will not cast away desirous souls. If they are taught to listen for the Shepards voice they will hear it. Many people join when they are older and from many different faiths. Ideally in the LDS church 8 is the magical age. But in Gods world anything is possible. Things will be worked out. Don't think all hope is gone. Lay a proper foundation for them. One in which they are taught to listen to the spirit, follow Christ.... what ever church they may be sitting in. Such are principals that will bless them greatly. Pray for them and dedicate them to God then sit back and see what the Lord can do with that. I'm glad to see so far you have maintained that desire and hope you continue that. They will be blessed and you will be blessed. They will come out stronger in the end as they wrestle to find truth. This is your circumstance so you have to trust that God will find away for you to accomplish the thing in which he hath commanded you and led you to.

A lot depends on who you choose to listen to. The church will always be against mixed marriages for its people because it creates many challenges and heartache. On the other hand marrying inside the church for time and all eternity isn't a guarantee to happiness either as is reflected in the divorce and abuse rates. While your situation may not be the churches ideal that doesn't mean you can't try to put as many of the christlike principles you can into practice and be as faithful as you can. Doing the right things, like the ones listed above, will be what helps you keep and maintain a healthy relationship If he has taught righteous principles do you not think the child will recognize truth and do what is necessary when the time comes? Same with the wife. Do you not think that God has the power to call out His elect? If he tries to coerce his wife into going to church or guilt trip her into going how is that different from Satans plan? I've seen many miserable LDS marriages. Time and all eternity is not all that it is cracked up to be if there is not a good foundation there. Love, service, Faith and following Christ all good bases that can be developed and helpful in growing a strong marriage. The ordinances are worthless without the heartfelt knowledge and christlike understandings. The Pharisees and Saducees were very good at following the letter of the law and making sure everything was done correctly but showed that there is more to life than just the ordinance and law. While LT04's path is not one for everyone, nor should it be, what is wrong with him working things out with her in the way he is suggesting? She'll be much more open to respecting his faith as he respects hers. One day through faith and prayer, who knows the ordinances might be able to be performed in their family. I don't see how they can be denied. Someone will be brought forth to do them if they are not able in this life. You can't make someone join or listen. If you push them when they are not ready they will dig their heels in more. No one likes to feel coerced into something. She believes strongly in what she does and that it is right. Why should his faith automatically win over hers? All that will happen by him forcing her is that she will rebel and hate him rather than care what he has to offer. Then she will develop only hatred toward the faith too because it was not what it should be.Of course, her friends at church and her family are trying to tell her the same thing. So you have to somehow make compromises. Like maybe: we'll go to my Church and you can pick the names of the children, where we live, all our pets and their names, and what I'm supposed to wear every day for the rest of my life. (joking there, but I don't really see anything worth choosing in life that has equal value as your faith.) There are ways to make compromises while still getting ordinaces done. A few ideas-Why can't he go to church with her on Saturday and go to his on Sunday? Or maybe make sure he fits in Sacrament on Sunday and goes to her on Sunday too. That way they are going together and growing together. The differences will come out but not in an extreme way. If she is truly devout Catholic then let the child be baptized but then the child will also be baptized LDS at the age of choosing. By the time the child has to worry about the temple they will be old enough to make their own decision. Hopefully they will love and respect their parents if they have not seen them battling over religion and will have a strong relationship with Christ and gospel principles

Sometimes too humanity creeps in , I cut loose and then I have to humbly go to Heavenly Father and ask for His direction, wisdom and forgiveness and to the person if I've gone beyond what I feel I should have.

I have to remember there will always be opposition in all things. Not everyone will accept. Seek to understand what they are asking and what their purpose is. Then go from there. Some people can never be diffused. Others will always disagree and understand why. Other people just lack knowledge and speak in ignorant passion. Stand strong. Have faith. If God is on your side then what do you have to fear? Let the spirit speak to your heart. Words cannot destroy you however Unfaithfulness to known truth can. Respectful, gentle humor goes along way. We are required to love and forgive all men. I think of Christ on the cross when He said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" This moment to shall pass...... the deliverance of the Lord is nigh. :) also pray for those.... Saul and Paul used to be among the people against the church and look what God was able to do with him much to the astonishment of other church leaders of his day I meant Saul who later became known as Paul

mom_of_jcchlsm I see your points.The ideal would be two parents of the same faith always. But when that isn't the case what are the options? Try and make it work as best in the gospel or break up. I think the latter should and can be avoided. I was baptized twice. Can it really hurt for the baby to be baptized for the one partners sake when an infant and rebaptized later on? Double protection. If the person believing in infant is right the child is protect then and if wrong the child just got wet. Letting the baptism occur can show respect and love for the partner. It shows knowledge and respect for your spouses desire of wanting to do what is right. To have the child baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and follow a good path. To say I don't care what you think the baby is getting baptized at 8 in my church would appear devisive and arrogant to the non believing partner. Hopefully, instead, the child will come to love and appreciate the spirit of the law rather then the letter if compromises and respect is shown for the other partner. The child will see the love that the parents have for each other in that they are willing to risk all and sacrifice all for their partner. Its all in how its potrayed and managed. IMHO. The religious gap can be bridged when Christ and the will of God is in the middle :) Ultimately there always needs to be more sensitivity to how things are communicated then what is being communicated. The things felt by the heart will always rule out a bunch of words , IMHO of course

When you come from different backgrounds break it down to basic values and truths. List what are incompromiseable values to each of you. What defines you. What is most sacred. Focus on the unifying principles. Always be willing to give and take a little. Pray for strength and wisdom.If you are focused in on the unity and righteous goals your children will only be blessed. It will not become the babies problem. Sure it may pose special challenges for them but they also will be getting diversity training and lessons that will help them later on. They will see your example of working together, loving and serving despite all is. This will be more of an example to them then all the church attendance or church doctrine can ever give. Give each other lattitude to grow in. Identify what lies beneath all the traditions. What do you hope that your children get? Don't worry about what so and so thinks your children should have. Hopefully basic morals and values, love of God, learning how to communicate with God, service to others.. will become a part of them. It will not become a problem but a tool they are given to better understand and appreciate others. If you get caught up in religious divisions, I'm right your wrong, do it my way thinking you will not find sucess. A house divided cannot stand (or certainly will not be as secure). Unity is the big word. Communicate with one another that hurt. Let your partner know my line is drawn there if its a sincere problem. There is more alike amongst people than not alike. Hardships and trials will come. Its inevitable in any relationship. Pray together. Thats something Catholics and mormons can do. Pray for healing, unity and strength. YOu will not be denied by Heavenly Father. Most Catholics have Saturday services perhaps why not go saturdays with your wife and go on Sundays to LDS for sacrament? Support one another as much as you are able without breaking major gospel standards. Look at the Catholic traditions around Easter, Lent Christmas etc. They celebrate the birth, death and sacrifices of our saviour. Those are truths that mormons can appreciate to. Just break things down to basic principles and ideas. Who cares if you come up with the new Roman Mormon if your family is happy and growing in gospel truth? Ultmately aren't we all children of God despite what label we place upon ourselves? Get away from the labels and into the heart of things. Its ultimately between your family and God. Whatever is good......... let your mind dwell on these things.. In a case if you or your partner is not desirous to talk over their values and limits try and find out where their limits are. Try and identify them and respect them. It goes along way. Say for instance your wife, she knows your mormon-no coffee or tea well don't ask you if you want a cup of coffee or lay a guilt trip on you for not having one. (why don't mormons drink coffee.... blah blah blah .. Its not such a big deal). Instead respect that you are trying to be obedient to what you feel the Lord is asking. You are willing to go against the crowds to do it. You are a person of honesty and integrity. Hope that helps some

Some things that have helped me...Love and support one another in your righteous endeavors. Seek to bring out the good. Follow the admonition of Paul (13 article of faith) There are many principles that cross faith lines. In your case it is much easier because you both have a faith system that believes in Christ. There is much you have in common. Focus on the similar fundamental truths. Minimize the emphasis on the more controversial or devisive things as it will be hurtful. Why would you want to bring pain to your spouse? Love your spouse as Christ loved the church. Share what you have in love. I learned this today and I did that. Watch each other grow and blossom and praise God. As they see you growing they will take notice and praise God too. You cannot hide your beliefs. Don't expect your spouse to cover up theirs either. Their faith is a deep reflection of who they are. Pray for one another. Trust that God will lead you in truth to where you need to go and for the knowledge of what you need to do. Everyone is learning truth one step at a time. Some may take some different twists, paths and turns but trust that if your heart is sincere God will lead you to where you need to go. Trust that in God's time even the crooked paths will be made straight leading right to him.

I was going through a really horrific time and crisis of faith. Faith was a true struggle for me at that time. I wanted to believe. So much just had piled on and I was maxed out. Everything had been shaken. I did not feel I could go back to my ward or that anyone cared. I wondered why I had ever joined the church, was it a bad choice? Why LDS, there are a lot of other good faiths.... I needed a why LDS and not in the usual, typical way before the last thread holding me on was gone. Every usual reason given just seemed to drive me farther away and I needed something different. I felt a need to talk to LDS and thought online connections might allow freedom to ask questions and to freely express my concerns that were bottled up without having to worry about the "morning after". So after looking, I stumbled on this site. With my last drop of faith remaining I made my first post. I'm so unbelievably grateful that I did. This site was the greatest answer to prayer that I could have ever recieved. I got answers and direction, sometimes unintentionally even. I've met so many wonderful people, LDS and non-LDS whom will always mean the world to me (even though I don't even really know everyone). This site shows that the lion can lay down with the lamb. That various faiths can get along and learn and grow together. Heavenly Father knows of the deep gratitude I feel towards this site and so many of you who have been there. This site was defineately an answer to prayer.

[ .All flesh went out of the will of God and made Him rather mad. Out of the will of God implies sin. A cleansing had to be done. Genesis 6 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Very interesting. Never thought of it that way before , the animals needing repenting and all genesis 6:7, baptism of earth by fire and water.... there's always an internal and external pattern when it comes to God.. Neat

Much good stuff said already. Pet peeve of mine is those who interpret the "by the fruits ye shall know them" to mean converts to a belief or number of baptisms done. This leads to a pride, which is fruit that belongs to a different kind of tree then they're hoping for. Tree-doctrines, gospel, teachings, ordinances and principles...... Fruit-galatians 5 fruits of the flesh and spirit. Talk about a loaded question! False doctrine means that somewhere down the line someone is going to get a learning experience :) And a time for choice. Intent of heart would play a big part. Why is the person teaching it? Do they understand what they are doing? No matter what they gotta get some points for the love and compassion Something on a totally bad tree would not come across with a lot of love and compassion.

Going through old messages.... So you went over to the light side :) ? Congratulations Dr. T. for putting your feet on a good path that will lead you to much personal happiness :) . Most of my most treasured and cherished friendships and associatians have been found amongst christian believers. While I have only known you from distant online communications you have always expressed yourself wisely, humorously, and compassionately. I'm glad to see you finding happiness and progress on your spiritual path and have found one that will develop your weakness and utilize your strengths in a wholesome way. Congratulations again!

. I'd personally always hope for the suceed choice for the longterm. No band-aid fixes on some major hemorrhage or something like that. But when in the thick of handling situations, sometimes choices don't seem so black and white. There's a lot of dead ends along the way making it easy to wonder where and why things are off. There's a lot of fibromyalgia out there as mentioned in above posts. That can be pretty painful and not always recognized by some medical professionals. It usually takes a long time before it is identified and is not really ever cured. What techniques do you use to cope with or minimize the pain? Are there holistic things that work? Things you've found that don't work? Thanks S.F for sharing how you've been able to cope Thanks all for your thoughts

If men are that they might have joy... And LDS sometimes use the wording the plan of happiness... Is pain ultimately caused by sin and contrary to the Lords will, as some believe? Does someone with physical pain possess some sin hidden or not that must be addressed? Can't physical pain be a test that someone might be asked to pass through? Can it be eliminated in this life? How can it be managed righteously? There are lots of ways of dealing with pain-physical, mental, spiritual. What are some good things for the longterm? Should some of the human cures be avoided due to the longterm potential negative effects? What positive ways might human pain be managed for the longterm when no immediate miracle occurs? Christ always in his healing miracles always forgave sin. What do you think was the purpose in doing so?

http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Mag...plates$3.0 Enduring Well, an excellent talk by Elder Maxwell , Ensign April 1997, found on LDS.org May that strength be found and lived is my prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

I guess my question would be why would they let just anyone in if they are chosen? Why wouldn't it be selective? I have a very limited view on judaism. Personally I don't know why a true blooded jew would even be accepting of the non-Jew by blood into judaism, especially considering their tough history. What would there be that would make them even take in outsiders? If they are the chosen ones, the NT is not believed and Paul, a "rebel jew" was introducing the idea of letting the gentiles in, then why would they feel compelled at all to let outsiders in? Historically even the Samaritans were a scourge to them because they only had a partial blood. Why do you think this is so? What changed?????

Lots of good responses. Slowly- I can truly understand your concerns. It can be kind of confusing and scary. As you pointed out there are lots of good choices out there what makes LDS the one? What if you're wrong in what you choose? It is by the Holy spirit we are taught. Galatians 5 really helps us to understand what we would expect from the spirit of God and from spirits other than God. We can seek God's will through prayer. Those two things may seem cliche but I don't think they'd be mentioned so much if they didn't work. As far as different religions go and which one is right? The spirit will lead our willing hearts to truth. Line upon line. Precept upon precept. As others stated truths can be discovered in different ways. The spirit will lead us to understand in the way that we would understand the best. Will going to a non-LDS church bar you from God's truth? Not necessarily. The spirit will lead you to the truths you need to know. It will help you to recognize untruths as you go. I did learn many truths outside the LDS church. Thankfully, because I learned them, I was able to recognize them when I saw them in the LDS church. Even if the LDS church were to be wrong I am sure I am recieving truth there. Line upon line. No matter where you are, Willing, humble hearts will never be barred from recieving truth and the love of God. The wicked are "ripe unto destruction" before they are forever destroyed. God is a merciful God. If you make your way to destruction you will have earned it. The point of LDS worship is to know God, to follow His will and become one with it-not solely to be saved. The thing that draws me to and keeps me at the LDS church is truths. What truths do you believe in? Think about every area of your life. What things might matter? Take a look at different faiths and religions. There are truths in each one which the spirit will reveal to you. Look at history. You will see certain truths and patterns over the different beliefs and throughout history. How does the LDS faith measure up? Is it unreasonable? Does it encourage you to adapt true principles into your life? In my seeking, while I may not agree with everything or struggle with its human aspects at times, I think it does the best job at identifying the truths that we will be measured up to and encouraging us to do the things that will help us both eternally and temporally. It does the best job for me , at blending together the worlds of faith and reason together. YOu need to find the path best for you. One thing I like about the LDS church is that it addresses truth in each area of our life and pushes each member to seek truth and to follow it. Church becomes a way of life , not just a one day hobby. It is not just set apart for a chosen few either. Everyone is trained. There are many concepts that LDS bring out that are not widely pronounced in other faiths. This is something that stands out to me as very LDS. It brings out things whether popular or not. While there have been adaptations to times and circumstances there still is a pattern or line that is in keeping with what scriptures and history reveal is possible. As before mentioned in another post, the amazing concepts of the spirit world and after death teachings stand out as LDS. Everyone has a chance to learn and accept to follow God's will or not. Those taken suddenly without opportunity to hear will not be condemned without choosing their path. Most faiths say that the point of death is it. No more opportunity to repent. Its impossible and blasphemous. But is it a totally unchristian concept? I look at things like purgatory in the catholic faith, which while different does show that there was some concept of a time between death and judgement. There is also a history of baptisms of the dead having been done. Paul mentions it in his scriptures too. So probable yes. This brings about a number of amazing possibilities through which God can work. It presents more opportunity for faith to grow. Authority and structure. God does the calling. There is organization. Is everyone perfect? No. Look at OT. Samuel was chosen prophet because of priest wickedness. Temple. Blends together OT and NT. We can have a relationship with God/ christ because of the atonement. But we are also reminded there is order too. We seek to purify ourselves inwardly (the temple of our hearts) and outwardly (the physical temple). Now instead of animal sacrifices , people go in with contrite spirits and willingness to do the will of God. Those are just a few things that stand out to me. It's hard breaking the LDS faith and why one would believe down to a few words... Hope this helps

Why is mormonism true? Sometimes asking slightly different questions helps me find answers.. Why isn't it true? Or why couldn't it be? What makes any faith true? etc..................................................... It's cool the answers and insights that can be found:)