rosie321

agreed and same here No bad feelings I hope. Just written in probably nagging, sisterly love

my additions in red [ Seriously, people. Think about it. If I tell other people what is written in the scriptures, why wouldn't they believe what I'm saying? And never at any time did I say you should not compare what I wrote to the scriptures. You can search the scriptures to your heart's content... but will that tell you what is really the truth? It certainly can't hurt. Most people who search the scriptures have real intent to know truth and God. So that very act for many shows they are taking the first step to understanding. They want to know the truth. That is their asking. But there are so many voices out there as I mentioned before claiming the truth. People have to weed through everything. (kind of like the process of going through the junk mail) Your voice saying its true because I know it does not help people weed through it. The fact that truth is eternal and will withstand all weedings is important knowledge to have for many-on top of the Ray knows it to be true. The problem is that many need someone to lead them through all the junk so they don't get buried beneath it. To help recognize what is junk and scam and what is good. Its easy to say I know and you can know but HOW??????. They don't understand. In the New Testament there is the verse-sorry I can't remember the reference but it goes somewhat like this how can I know unless I was taught? God uses different people, circumstances and life patterns to teach. The scriptures are a good starting place and continuing place. It serves as a witness. No one doubts Ray that you have a testimony and we are not trying to mock that believe me. But on my time on the board I have noticed what everyone else is saying. That your point is always that its true because I know it. When pushed for more information about how that it what you stick with. I doubt many , if any would argue that you do need to personally know and have a testimony. But certain things or certain knowledge can draw someone personally closer to knowing as well as certain sins can draw a person away. People need to learn what is good and bad. This will be different for everyone and I doubt from all that I've ever read in scriptures that everyone will ever choose to know and follow. This makes it very confusing to those starting out. How do we know that you have the knowledge? How come this person asked and isn't following, why is God ignoring me when I ask, What did I do wrong? Sometimes there are lessons that God wants us to learn. Sometimes I think God wants us to just seek him. Maybe that very act is important in our progression. I think of Peter who walked and talked with God. He listened , he had righteous desires. He asked and followed. But he denied Christ. Even Christ said I pray for when you are converted. After Christ was resurrected and came to him you never saw him turn away. He seemed to have the unbreakable testimony. I think he needed the expericnces of cutting off the guards ear, of denying Christ to really be able to follow him wholeheartedly. Another point-The scriptures say that in the mouth of two or more witness the truth is established. Thus also the verse in Ezekial of the importance of the stick of Judah and Ephraim. One voice is not enough ( Sorry I'm horrible with references but any good missionary can tell you exact verse. If you have a headache, then I suggest you do something that will help your headache to go away, but please don't jump on my case because you think what I'm saying is not what you think I should say. That was never my intent. I think your point is lost or just tossed out because people don't care to keep hearing what Ray knows. It can be frustrating to someone looking in trying to learn more. The way you come across is like I know-how come you don't know. what's wrong with you? Do you see what I mean? There are many who want to know the will of God and they want to make sure they are on the right path. Its not because they are not asking. Instead of showing them roadmarkers or more things that could help them you in fact almost get into shoving people away. I really don't think that is your intention. That is what is most frustratingI have my own beliefs, and you can have your own beliefs. I am sharing what I believe is the truth. NO one doubts that. I don't have to show any of you that what I was saying was or is said by other prophets. Then don't expect people to automatically follow you. Anyone can say anything And I personally believe it really wouldn't matter if you read the same words in the scriptures. Yes it would. It would be another witness to me. YOur voice wouldn't be a lone one then.The only reason that I can see why you would believe what is written in the scriptures, is because your faith is in the scriptures... instead of the power of God. Then why do we bother reading scriptures.? Why have we been so strongly admonished to continue reading them if they are meaningless? I realize that there is something more. Anyone can just read words but they won't mean anything without the spirit or the power of God behind it. Similar to how some people won't believe anything unless they see it written in the Bible... and they believe it simply because it's in the Bible. But even the BOM and churches establishes itself through Bible verse references, there are witnesses to it who could not deny to the death what they saw was true....there were definite other witnesses established right in the Beginning of it many who were excommunicated who could not deny on their death beds what they had seen. Witnesses other than Ray. Do you not think this knowledge would be beneficial to someone starting out? Did you ever see in Primary where they do a little skit, taken from a verse in Ecclesiastes , I believe, where a few sticks are taken and someone tries to break them. They cannot. But with one stick it is broken. The more witnesses the harder it is to break. Ray you have developed your testimony over the years and have had it nourished through church. Even in the instanteous conversions like Paul he had to go and be taught before he went out. The instanteous conversion wasn't all he needed to know. The disciples spent much time learning at the feet of Christ. Sometimes learning takes time and many different directions. It's not just in the snap your fingers. Ask God and Boom you have this unbreakable testimony. Theres also learning and growing.Okay? That's what I think on this issue. I hope I have made my point clear. You have made yours clear. Hopefully you can see my different points even if they seemed rambling or drawn out (I have a tendancy to do that). We really aren't as far apart as you might think :) .

While I can understand the frustration and irritation of being judged from some rule book or having someone look at it as gospel law to judge unrighteously. I guess I see also much benefit to it in that it can really help to steer the majority of the people to what would be the best thing for them. There are certain behaviours and codes of conduct that I think everyone would agree will draw you closer to righteousness. Obviously we may have times where we will not fit into the norm and such guidelines might be hurtful. That's where peoples love and forgiveness are required. But its nice to have some guidelines or a lighthouse so to say to help direct you to what would be best at a given time. I've fallen outside of the Manual guidelines at times and have been judged and hurt as a result. But even then I see the benefit of them being there. I think they are there to help protect people and to help them draw closer to principles of righteousness. I've truly found the closer that people draw to them or the underlying ideas behind the guidelines, it helps to build a strength and unity. These guidelines are an important lighthouse to help guide a number of people in the church. Especially those just starting out from avoiding many pitfalls and traps. I think everyone should look at them encouragingly and not as unrighteous judgement for those who are outside the norms. I really get frustrated by attempts to throw out the "lighthouse" for the benefit of those who don't want to be seen as outside of the norm or want to be "sensitive" to those outside of the norm. As being someone who has been outside the norm at times I do not get upset by people saying this should be the way that it is done in the church. Because I do understand that things can not just go with every whim. Certain guidelines must me made to benefit at all. There are certain patterns of behavior that are more likely to lead one to happiness then others or will be more likely to have one accomplish the Will of God to their full potential. People should be made aware of them. When I fall without that norm. I know I have to go to Heavenly Father and find out why. It always draws me closer to Him to try to find out why I am there and to find peace, strength or redirection. Sometimes this can be some of the most powerful, get to know God moments. I do have to say that I don't like it when people use it to pass unrighteous judgement. Ultimately through God's direction I will be judged and its not up to others. I have to put their judgements in the proper perspective. That's my task. I have God's will to follow in my life and I can't let others distract me from it and I will use every tool in the book (even the manuals) to help guide me-whether I always follow everything or not.

..And I thought I had a headache before I looked at this forum.. Not to destroy any of the fun here but I do have to interject some thoughts here. [ Answer me this would Laman and Lamuel really ever excepted the truth? They saw so much. They recieved witness after witness. Their hearts were pricked at times but they still hardened them. They chose other things. All the testament to truth did not work on their hearts. Some people will never ever accept the truth. Thus the scripture "the way is narrow". If it were so easy then everyone would be there. But not everyone will get there. If scriptures or proof were not necessary then why didn't Christ go around only saying I know its true because my Father told me. Thats all He had to say. Everyone should have been instantaneously converted. Instead he continually referenced previous known prophecies, scriptures etc to make his point. He used a variety of methods to reach all the people. People don't care about what a person claims or believes to be true. There's a lot of people out there saying what I believe is true. Its insane how many people are claiming "I have the truth or I know this to be true. How can you be sure unless there is some kind of way to test it? Some way to measure it? Scriptures are a measuring stick one can use to see if it works. It directs people as to how to go. There was something I heard before that goes something like this. We talk to God through prayer and God talks to us through scriptures. So maybe we can pray for the truth and ask God to tell us but then we need to look at his word for the answers. Maybe that is why Nephi directed his brothers there. People especially starting out need the concrete. We need to take counsels given and apply them to understanding. -------------------------------------------------------------- Will you get what I am saying this time, I wonder? ... will you agree with what I'm saying... I mean? Or will you continue to show that you seem to think it's really stupid to do what I think we should do? I haven't seen much support from you, so far. What everyone is trying to say is that they know you know. We know that you feel strongly about the church/gospel. But it isn't enough to convince someone that it is true. How do we know you aren't dilusional or that you're taking some kind of drugs or something to lead you that way? Your feeling could be one evidence to help them. But most people want to see different evidence. Such as in a trial. If you have a witness stand up and go. I know this guy did it... Why? Because I just know it.. I feel it inside... And that is the only proof on a matter. What do you honestly think the jury is going to do? They aren't going to care about the witness testimony. But if you have the witness and some evidence too , even if its circumstantial or whatever. People are going to take the claim more seriously. The more associated proof or probabilities that you line up the more likelihood you are going to have in convincing someone. Well hope that made some sense to someone Gonna go and get some advil now ...

Thanks all for your love, support and prayers. While things will most likely take a bunch of time to heal and be made right as possible, I'm so grateful to feel and know the support and love around the world being offered from people I barely know (except through the posts or pm's). It does help at this most difficult time. I'm so grateful for all of you and this site.... Thanks

While I'd prefer not to enter into much detail on the matter as it is very complex and involves a lot of matters best not dwelved into on the forum boards. I would appreciate any and all prayers on behalf of some heavy things going on. It is some very serious stuff that compiled together are beyond me and the people involved. Some involve time constraints and will forever effect the futures of many. I have recieved a blessing on it but would still appreciate all the prayers in the world. Its this serious to me. I do believe in the power of prayer and would appreciate any and all. While I do not wish to give much detail and names, some more specifics areas to pray for might be; Wise decision on the part of a person pushed to make a decision (who's not used to making them ). That the person will consider the wise council of all who have gone to him before making the decision. For the rest of the people affected by the decision the strength to handle what may come to pass. That he will make the decision on a prompt basis before the decision is out of his control. Peace, healing, and strength to some very distraught people. They do not have the gospel principles to pull them through . They have nothing to lose. Desperate people are capable of anything . The situation is very complex and grave. If there is something I can do to help in the related matters that my eyes may be opened. Right now everything seems kind of hopeless in these related, compiled issues, and I don't know if there is anything more I can do. It's starting to overwhelm me a little although I'm trying to make sure it doesn't defeat me. I've went to all the sources I know of that could provide earthly help. If there's nothing I can do, may I find the peace and serenity in that so that I may be a strength to others involved. While I am affected by what's going on at least I do have the gospel to pull me through. The others do not and are keeping their eyes on me to see how I make it through and handle things. (nothing like a little gospel pressure ) They are coming to me for help and direction. I hope that they can find the eternal hope through Christ Jesus and the Will of God and will overlook my weaknesses in dealing with this . I have to say this is one big giant we are facing . Your prayers would be appreciated.

There are two extremes you can get caught into not paying tithing at all and trying to find every loophole possible (your state of heart not being right) and then the look at what I'm doing extreme. (like the situation in the Bible of the widow and her mite and the rich man). Not everyone sits there showing off what they do. Somewhere in the middle is the answer. Through time, asking the questions, faith and prayer the answers will come more clear. I think the same thing applies here as in prayer do it secretly and not to be seen of men. Commiting yourself more to God in my opinion is never wrong such as choosing to pay from your gross. It may make things a little uncomfortable temporally but in the long run it all works together for the good.

I've heard very strong and differing opinions on that. I don't pretend to be an expert or judge of the matter. It's something that's ultimately up to an individual and God in my opinion. I personally go for the gross because that is what we were given whether a portion was taken for other purposes like taxes or insurance etc. We started out with a certain amount to use. Taxes and the like would have to be paid regardless. Imagine them as a bill you get each month. A bill for living in your country. Then consider what Jesus said. "Render unto Ceasers what is Ceasors and unto God what is Gods' Should we cut down God's percentage so we can just pay our other bill collectors? Who should we be more fearful of and repectful of? Also its comforting to know the blessings that we recieve the more we give. Granted our taxes are extremely annoying and burdomsome things. Many times they go for things that we probably wouldn't support otherwise. But I think that those are a reflection of the direction of society and also point to peoples responsiblity in trying to encourage responsible laws and usage of the funds gathered. LDS church leaders and many christian leaders have strongly encouraged members to get involved in their governments to help shape where and how funds are used. So they are used properly . Regardless of how our taxes are used, they should never stand in the way of returning to God what we were asked to. As far as the matter above and bankruptcies and such where people are unable to do so for a time. I would encourage somebody forward. And might direct them to these thoughts if the opportunity arose. 1st Your current situation is only for a time. Make sure your heart is always open to doing it. Are you willing to tithe in your heart until the day you are able to physically do so? 2nd. Especially in certain circumstances the question for them to personally ask themselves how did you get into the situation you were in and how could you avoid ever getting into it again? 3rd. Pray for the strength and abilities to do so one day. 4th. Have faith and patience that things will come together to make it possible. Ultimately its all a matter of the heart. Where is it and why? What is first, what is not.

Amen again Couldn't agree more especially on this matter. I understand what you are saying here, I've fit into that category before. Even now my family is really not in the best of states. It would be so much easier to just forgo paying it. Don't ask me how we make it month to month some times. I have tried not paying in the past. Giving myself a way out. I saw the bills sitting there and those seemed scarier to me at the time. The funny part is they just seemed more overwhelming and seemed to almost grow. But when I've made the commitment to pay my tithing into practice and to put the Lord first into practice. I've seen a huge difference. Even just in my spirit. Doors and "windows" were opened that I never thought could be. I've gotten what I've needed and my family has. I've never gone to the bishop to ask for help or anything. Granted many things are second hand. Gotta love garage sales (many things around here you can find at the garage sales still with tags), ebay, thrift stores, grocery discount shops.... Its funny when people think how could you afford that . Or think that we must be in a better state then we are in just because of the bounty that God has given us. As winnie said Who wouldn't want a testimony of tithing as promised in The question is tithing to be or not to be in your life and to what degree. That's something between each individual and God.

Basically, it is made clear that the God who has given us everything has asked us to do certain things. In this particular instance the thing that God asks is to be obedient to the law of tithing. We are expected to do so as set forth in Mal 3:8, as well as other places scripturally. Malachi is an infamous one that lets people see the curses for not doing so and the serousness with which God makes this request. He doesn't give a list of exceptions anywhere to the policy. Only people themselves do. To me, it shows a lack of faith on the part of a person who refuses to do what the Lord asks or questions their need to listen and obey. It also robs them of potential blessings. God has said both in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, allbeit in different words, that He giveth no commandment save he prepare a way whereby men may accomplish the thing. Isn't the person who feels they can't obey for some reason showing a lack of faith in that promise? How can they expect to reap the blessings for their disobedience? I understand all too well the difficulties and challenges that come from paying a tithe. But I've also seen the blessings. Maybe in the shortterm it may make things uncomfortable but by commiting yourself to do something the Lord has asked can only cause longterm benefits as reprioritizations are made. Or maybe humbling of going to your bishop and asking for help for a time maybe in some of the other areas of your life. Food , shelter etc. While I know in our minds it makes sense to pay our bills 1st. We are placing those bills ahead of our relationship and trust in God. Thus breaking one the the 10 commandments. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. In a sense we are placing our bills above our fear of the Lord. You are also breaking another commandment, thou shalt not steal. Thankfully as I pay the tithe I find that the bills are not a worry as I thought. Something always helps to get me through and my faith is strengthened. For people who spend undo time worrying about if they should fit into the category of paying the tithe are not going to be able to accomplish this thing and will be breaking many of Gods commandments too in the process. We are asked to obey Gods command. Maybe requirement sounds like to hard of a word? But boiled down obedience to God's command is required. Any shortcomings are covered by grace but as other threads have discussed more fully. Do we really have the grace covering us if we are unwilling to obey Gods commands? Hope that helps clarify what I meant.

G-B I do think that in cases such as ours where we have non member family members we have to be careful and respectful of others beliefs in this matter. For example, I don't expect my spouse to tithe to a church he doesn't believe in, but I would encourage him to do so in a cause or place he felt was doing good. To give back to God some of what he has been given. I have to be careful not to step on his agency and avoid all appearances of self righteousness. I do make it clear that this is what I am doing and why and ask for the respect to do so. Hope that makes sense and helps.

I think its important to pay tithing 1st (or at least have the desires too since sometimes for example the technologies of this electronic age of payments doesn't always make it feasible) But we should be thinking of it as our priority because it is the place where God should be in our lives. How can we say that we have faith and trust him if we don't want to put the will of God before all else? My husband pointed out to me his belief. That part of Cains troubles started because he did not give to God his first fruits and that is most likely at least part of the reason why God rejected Cains sacrifice and not Abels. Reading Genesis 4 it does make sense. This being said I think we need to take tithing to the next step and make it a priority. I think it is easily possible to let sin enter in when we don't put God first. God knows our sincerity in this matter and is not mocked. I truly believe that the individual circumstances in the end will be properly considered. If we are complaining or doubtful that we cannot meet these requirements then maybe we don't have enough faith. Once again though that is ultimately between an individual and God. One who doesn't have knowledge of tithing will not be held to the same accountability as one who does not.

Neither is my husband. No need to worry though. Just keep walking forward , together hand in hand and trust that things will come together the way they should. Do you think that Heavenly Father will punish you for doing what is right? If our spouses were totally evil and unreceptive to truth do you think they would still be with us? They have not rejected us or the gospel totally or they would be fighting us every step of the way. Marriage would be hell. They would be looking for the quickest escape clause. You never know what tomorrow holds. Each will be brought to the point of making an undeniable acceptance or rejection of gospel truth. 1st principle of the gospel is always faith. I like the verse in Hebrews and they died having not recieved their promise. This very thing you hope for may not be resolved in this life but the next. You can count on it. Don't worry if its not all worked out in this lifetime.

Out of curiosity, is your wife a member? (BTW thought never crossed my mind that you meant it for yourself-assumed you were asking generally)To members whose partners don't become members expect a challenging road with a lot of extra bumps and views. That's why people are encouraged to marry someone of like belief As always, life to some degree is what you make of it.

Ray your thoughts say it all. As I look at what you'd be telling your spouse if you just gave up on them it sends shivers up my spine YOu're not worth it... I'm not going to wait... I've got to do what's best for me Now take those messages that you'd be sending and now consider all the gospel principles and ideals you've ever known. How does that leave them thinking really line up? "What profiteth a man if he gain the world but loseth his soul?" I think that can be twisted to apply here. If we are willing to trample on the most special person we know to obtain celestial glory then how worthy are we for it? (most special person on earth)

I believe strongly that the couple should stay married as long as there is not some serious transgression or abuse taking place. There are important truths and changes that can occur for the members as well as the nonmember in the peaceable marriage. 1. The non-member has a daily living witness of love and of the gospel. Who knows what may happen? To just walk away might sign the spouse over to the dark side. 1st corinthians 7:10-16 explains quite well what is expected. 2. The believing spouse will better come to know and love christ. Our marriage should reflect the example that Christ set for us. Sticking it out despite personal worries of eternal concerns demonstrates the love that Christ has for us. He gave up everything for a far greater purpose. 3Things will work out. To just walk away in fear is not love which "endureth all things."

Great topic! Truth. Is it true?... How do you know?... Is it useful? This has been my neverending, exhausting quest for a number of years now. Some of my thoughts and ideas. Just stumbled on a rerun for Growing Pains It touched upon the whole truth thing for me. On it Mike stays home from school. He asks his dad if he can watch tv. He sees Gilligans Island is on. All of a sudden he has his moment of I can't believe it. Gilligans Island is on. He runs into his dad and says Gilligans Isand is on. His dad was dealing with other stuff at the moment and goes AND..... Well Mike came to the knowledge that things go on without him. Such is truth. Truth goes on whether we believe it or not. Whether we see or know it for ourselves. We might tune into truth or not. Its something that does have to be sought after. Our knowledge levels can effect our abilities. Think of a kindergartener trying to understand some college concepts. Not very likely it is going to happen. We learn and understand line upon line. Our stress levels, perceptions and abilities can affect it to. Maslow did the heirarchy. Someone concerned with basic survival is most likely not going to be too concerned with eternal truths. Many basic religious beliefs turn that worry to a higher source and helps minimize the temporal worries. Aren't there changing truths vs eternal? What is a temporal truth vs eternal? I think this is where much frustration and confusion comes in with religion as it seeks to define and clarify truth. Each faith emphasizes something different or tries to present certain ideas as eternal truths. Isn't total truth beyond many of our current comprehensions to understand? I think of the elephant description. Each person grabbing onto a different part and seeing something different. Members of the church are considered part of the body. So won't truth be interpreted differently by each part? The mouth may see something different then the intestines. The heart different then the brain. So truth though the same may be interpreted differently. As someone who has desperately sought truth and to know whether "this church is true" I can see where I keep coming back to it. Isn't that what truth will do stand all the storms? Is it useful? I find it is. It promotes great morals and values. When I am away from it that is when my spirit is totally changed. I feel a darkness come over me. It's not this dramatic thing but I feel my spirit just going. I lose the incentive and zest. I just don't care anymore. This summer was a great learning experience for me because I was able to see the truths beneath all the stuff we do. That all the temporal actions that we do draw us closer but are not the truths. People cannot change ulitmate truths despite their best efforts. The truths are far more precious and are seperate from everything else. Truth is like a buried treasure. Its a messy and tough job getting to it but like the great pearl of price once you have it. I liked what one of the previous posters said, if we are wrong than how bad could hell be?

Happy Thanksgiving All! (American and Non American too ) Hope everyone had a special day. I just love this American Holiday. Its one of my favorite despite how good or bad the day might go for me. Its one holiday that isn't totally commercialized and it really draws families together in an attitude of gratitude towards God. It makes people take notice of what they have and appreciate it better. Who can argue with that? (I guess I can think of a few... ). Giving thanks is something good for everyone religious or not. The simple goodness of it makes it one of my favorite. Besides Easter, remembered as the celebration of Christs resurrection. I do like the christmas music and lights and the spirit of love and giving that takes place around that holiday. But I think Easter is my favorite and Thanksgiving are my favorite because they are like special treasures boxes containing some of the most profound ideas and simple, profound beauty. These ideas that are easy to miss or are taken for granted are really brought to our attention and pronounced each year for all who care to see. Its Ok to take notice of them. I hope, whereever we are, we are all full not only from turkey, or other feasting treats but for gratitude for all we have. If not into customs, or in the US hope you take a moment to think about all your grateful for and be filled :)

Well the point was a little off track and opens a new can of worms. I guess thats a general point I was trying to make is he obviously didn't follow the will of God and went outside his will. Yet he was in God's presence, in a perfect place and all that. Sorry it did go into a totally new direction that could keep us posters busy forever debating too. Did he really know and understand? Why did he turn away? Did he ever truly choose to follow God ? etc..... What is it John 14-15 talks about Gods plan is that we will be one even as Christ is one with HIm. That was Christs prayer. That we get tuned into the will and follow it even as he did. Or at least thats one thing I got from it.

Another reason that I conclude that it is God not us.Dr. T Thats why we want to be AT ONE with God's will? I guess this raises the question for me so its God's fault that people do not follow him or start and then stop? How can someone just stop. For example Lucifer himself was a beloved angel of Light. He was in Gods presence yet he turned away. For me I believe there is a defining moment where you choose to totally turn yourself over to the Will Of God. His will then does take control and all the blessings associated with following it. You will always have choice over the actions you do. But hopefully the goodness of the Lord will take away all desire towards bad. I believe this is one of the most beautiful parts of the gospel. That God has given us the opportunity to learn and grow and be like Him. It is a loving and unselfish thing. But a scarier thing for our mortal minds to understand. For example. We might want to have the final graduate degree in our hand in kindergarten (before we finish all the work needed). The plan that I see presented through your questions is here have the piece of paper now. Because I know you'll finish it sometime. This school has the best educational program, the teachers are great. Instead I tend to take the approach that no you will not graduate until you have completed all the work. YOu have to go through the motions no matter how great you are or whoever it is that you think you know. But understand and take hold of the promise you have been given that yes everyone who turns to me will make it through. I'll give you a curve if needed but you must give me the best efforts you can. There is important stuff you need to learn and understand. You will only get that through the doing. If I give you your degree now your hearts motivation would not be there. Would you want a doctor working on you that had his degree given to him without the work or one who had gained experiences along the way? Dare I say you can even see this among some of the welfare population forced to work. Well if I get fired who cares. I still get money coming in either way. That mentality has its flaws to me. I'd rather see someone work hard to benefit their family and go down trying. To me that example means more than just collecting free money? Does that help? One extra thought to get our degree we do need to go through a program. God's program is from the ivy league school and will give us what we need. Why would you want to go elsewhere? We will get the best education that will take us wherever we want to go from there. When people get into His program most recognize this and they stay there and follow his degree program. But not everyone probably chooses to do so. You can go to some "papermill" type school which may open up a few doors here or there. But without the degree and sometimes from the right program we will not get to where we had hoped to go. So yes with God all things are possible but with man's plans they might not get us to the same place

Totally greed Thanksoops -thats agreed

The red indicates to me that we must be shown by someone doing what they are supposed to -preaching. The word even in thy mind in heart -indicates to me a sincerity and intensity. The person is not just passive. They are also required to believe in thine heart-in the raising of the dead (grace). So grace will save you as well as your actions. I'm sorry but those to unto's I highlighted paint the picture for me that its not instantenous or as simple as one might think. This is not to say you are wrong. As I said before, I do believe the two are undeniably intertwined. If you have been truly touched by grace and faith you will do all necessary for the unto's (righteousness and salvation).

Other important work is humbleness. "are we not all beggars" destruction of pride and superiority. We are all in this together. LDS believe all brothers and sisters. Where is our heart and mind? We can do all the good deeds but if we don't have our mind set on the higher things of God. Sometimes people measure good deeds by what they get out of it or give. Not on serving God Operating within our means "do not run faster than ye have strenth" (BoM) but run that ye may finish the race that is set before you. as Paul says in the NT.

[[ Not too familiar scripturally speaking regarding the actual "judgement". But from what I understand the judgement of "works" in the scripture above is regarding the "unbelievers" works. The giving of rewards or taking away of rewards for the" believer" is I believe a different judgement, separate from what Rev 20 (above) is referring to. Works we should be doing? Some things are so ingrained into us that we just know . Others must be learned along the way (after all this is a time of learning) The spirit reveals the works to us we need to do. We learn by scriptures and through patterns. I think everyone notices basic patterns in life that cross all religious understandings. Do you ignore the law of the harvest? We will be judged ultimately by how much love we have or not in our hearts. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor. What you did with what you had or not. "By whatever judgement you judge you will be judged." If you have made no point of following Christ or hearing Him (doing right things) then will be judged according to the flesh. If made a point of following God will be judged according to that measure. for example there are people in the church who have done everything but will be surprised (matthew 25 I believe) The parable of the 10 talents shows that if you have only one and you lose it you will still be blessed. But if you have one and do nothing with it you are in trouble. Its hard to imagine being in the "God tree" having had it revealed to you to do something and then do nothing. But we are told that even in the tree of God there will be shaking. The bad will be removed. The sheep and the goat effect. Only the very elect will survive the shaking that will occur in the Latterdays. All I know is thankfully I am not the judge. So I will do what I should do the best of my ability and trust in grace to carry me through the lack thereof. Focusing on the judgement so much keeps me from doing.

No argument there