rosie321

Beautifully said Traveler :) . Slowly-Why do Mormons believe their religion is true? As you pointed out every religion points to some piece of historic grounding...... For me its the overall picture I see that seems right and true. While there are many other beautiful faiths and believers to me the LDS church stands out time and time again. I look at truths inside and outside church constraints and they lead me to the mormon path. They just are not found for me to the same beauteous degree anywhere else. I think the view of continued revelation, organization and order both for the church as a whole and the individual is a very important aspect. Many different faiths believe different things about it. Many believe in personal prayer and their leaders are placed by God. But we really do believe in lay people being called out to serve. That God teaches and trains all regardless of who you are. That we can all know God. That we can become one. That we don't have to only look back to documents 1000's years old to here and know what God wants for us and his church. God speaks to us individually and leads the church as a whole in the direction he wants. He uses the old scriptures and new and blends it all together. The leadership/priesthood traces back. We can speak to God and expect an answer. Active participation from everyone is another aspect for me. Not just a few are chosen to serve. We are all called. You don't have to go through years of seminary schooling. To see people with all their weaknesses striving to serve the best they can and seeing what God does with it. That to me is amazing. Another amainzing aspect is the idea of one eternal round. Through LDS concepts like baptisms for the dead, geneology work, temple service, the premortal existance etc. We see how things are bound together. Everything we do has an impact and purpose whether we choose to see it at the moment or not. We are not this lone person floating out there. As I do geneology work I am able to learn about and come to know ancesters I have not been able to personally meet here on earth in the mortal state. But by doing the work I come to KNOW them and when I see them again upon death they will not be strangers. It reminds me that everything has a purpose and promises will be fullfilled whether in this life or the next :) . We are bound by laws, rules, suggestions and commandments in every area of our life (ie: 10 commandments, word of wisdom, emergency preparation/ food storage......). We can choose the right or not. We can learn of the guidelines or not, but we will experience the consequences most times. The LDS believe God's grace will step in after we've done all that we can do. Sadly some faiths minimize the need for obedience instead focusing solely on the grace of God. People don't feel then a need to be obedient and thus suffer needlessly. I only very briefly touched upon some heavy LDS concepts that stand out to me. I hope the brief blurb helps anwer your question. I could probably easily write 1000 pages or more since its such a loaded question. Best wishes in your searchings Slowly Greetings: Anciently there was no such thing that we call religion today. Instead what was spoken of was a "way" or path. From the beginning of man’s life as a mortal there has been a journey by which we make our way back to what was once called the “tree of Life”. One problem is thinking of our efforts for truth as an arrival (obtaining religion) rather than a way or method of traveling by covenant with G-d. In reality, the everlasting truths have much more to do with love, compassion and awareness of others than it has to do with doctrines, sermons and becoming members of social organizations. When you ask about “Mormonism” it is not so much what you believe as it is what you are willing to sacrifice and covenant. It is not so much of what others are thinking and doing as it is your willingness to serve them, help them and assist them in their journey. The truth about “Mormonism” is not in listening to sermons and going to church – it is about sometimes giving the sermon and helping to build the kingdom of G-d. Even the widow can contribute their mite. There is no pay or profession in “Mormonism”, there is sacrifice and service. I have been disappointed in the ideas of religion that seem to be to be about the selfishness of getting for the “me”. Salvation becomes a me thing. Relationship with G-d become a me thing - A "Me borne again thing". We believe so “WE” can be saved. We have faith so “WE” can have salvation. Though many do – please do not think of “Mormonism” as a religion or a set of doctrines and such. It is really a “Way” for family, a “Way” your heart can be turned to your fathers and all your ancestors before you, a “Way” to understand and love your spouse and children and their children that will endure eternity in an everlasting marriage covenant and a “Way” to sacrifice all you have and will possess by covenant for a greater cause of everlasting duration. Most people would rather have a religion so they can have for them what they want; a religion that fits them and their desires, something more fitting humans than a G-d. The way is in the heart and thinking like G-d and G-ds. Walking such a way distinguishes G-dliness from the pursuits and passions of fallen man on a quest of self. Most people I encounter would rather have a religion – and I respect that and wish them the best in it – but if you seek everlasting life with and like G-d, there is only one way. The Traveler

The choice to not have alcohol was not form the WOW for it was not even reveled yet but in obedience to what he knew. Its a testimony of his character, not obedience to a law that hadnt been reveled. I agree, there are a many views on how we should understand the WOW. Do what will bring you health physicaly and spiritualy and let the Lord bless you for it. This all sounds nice and wonderful but doesn't it all ultimately boil down to truth or untruth in the end? Can't certain things be made a little more specific (black and white) especially when its made a requisite for the temple? Can't truth be lost in compromises and personal acceptances(in the shades of gray)? Sure, I do understand in the shortterm we are all going to flounder around a bit. Truth will be relative as we climb our way up the ladder of truth. I'm just concerned at times the possiblity of us trying to create God in our image vs the other way around God creating us in His image

The word of wisdom has always been been a topic of great struggle for me. I hate to indepthly discuss it with those outside of the church. Deep down I truly believe that it was meant to help us and guide us so I try to follow it the best I can, but the details of it are really bothersome. For example . J.S. was supposed to have drank yet he wouldn't take anything when having surgery. Hot drinks are bad for the belly yet hot chocolate is not banned and is included with food storage. Herbal tea is ok but black and green teas are bad. Postum good but coffee bad... Eat only in times of famine and hunger. Then why does every church event have food? When I think of hunger I guess I think of the poor and impoverished from 3rd world countries. In America I don't know that we're ever really hungry in a culture of 3-5 meal a day regimes or snacks between. Some people throw cola drinks or caffienated drinks into their interpretation of it. THe WOW gets really complicated fast. I prefer simplicity. This little brain of mine can only take so much :) . The cooking with alcohol personally bothers me a little too. I can't really purposefully add alcohol to what I cook and justify that with the not drinking alcohol promises. The more I conciously accept the slippier the slope I feel. On the other hand though when I go over to someones house or I eat food prepared by someone else I don't sit there and ask for a list of ingredients. Most medications have alcohol in to. I guess I'm not like Joseph Smith in the oft told stories of when he refused the alcohol when having the surgery. When I'm sick I might hold out a little but then I take the alcohol laden medicine and hope for some relief. I truly believe there are many benefits to trying to live the wow the best one can. I just struggle with it being a commandment and how to really live it in the proper way. There are just so many interpretations. BTW Crimson lol on the wicked men drinking water

Yes, but the leading opportunities are through priesthood holders and still overseen by them. The Relief Society, one of the major places for womans leadership, is still under direction of priesthood authority. I agree. The closer one gets to God and oneness the less people would even be thinking about the curse but the oneness that comes through the lamb. Its not man vs woman but doing whats right. The husband (leaders) would be loving his wife as christ loved the church and the wife would be working towards promoting gospel principles so it would all blend together. The focus would not be on the curse. The women was considered one by God in the joining together (the two shall be one). So I think even God did not view a woman as less or else he would have said 11/2 or someother fractional amount for the women. I agree with you for the most part. It has been taken out of context. Some men use it to justify their arrogant dictatorship. In view of the gospel though it doesn't have to be that extreme. But if ordinances were given to men-some believe they were given the priesthood to enable them to be humbled and have a part in the kingdom in a way that would reach them and women were given the power of procreation and nurturing something men cannot do (without some serious outside interventions ) The women still does have to go through the man for those necessary ordinances. So in a sense she does ultimately have to go to the husband or man for the completion of those ordinances necessary for salvation. She is always subjected to him to some degree here on earth. For even to be able to procreate, she still takes something from the man:) But for him, the priesthood has been given with nothing needed from the woman.

Crazy thoughts? Looking at the thoughts quoted below and considering the female priesthood issue, could the answer become clearer by going back to the origional curse explained in Genesis? Eve is told that her desire will be towards her husband and that he will rule over her. Looking at it from the idea of priesthood the way that the LDS church sees it, is that men (husbands) hold the priesthood. The women seek the blessings through it. (which in the LDS church becomes through the man, ultimately, since he hold the powers to do the ordinances). But she bears the priesthood also, in a sense, as she becomes "one" with her husband in the priesthood. She recieves the abilities and priviledges through the worthy priesthood holder here on earth to accomplish her duties. So nothing is withheld from her. She does get the priveledges of the priesthood and is called to do many priestlike things. Only she does have to go through the man, who does in a way rule over her? - Strong women are seen throughout scriptures doing many great things for the gospels sake yet I don't really see anywhere where they have the power to perform the traditional "gospel ordinances" on their own. -The church provides for the case of the women without the priestholding husband. They are not denied priesthood blessings as another male priesthood holder is readily available through its structure by which women can go through to recieve the same blessing as the married counterpart. But even the unmarried must go through the priesthood. -On the same train of thought was it really ever God's intent for men to rule over women or will that part of the curse be resolved in the hereafter?

:) Just look through my posts :) I can't wait 'til we all speak one language again. Hopefully it will have a lot less grammar rules and be a whole lot easier to express those things difficult to put into words :)

Just a wild guess but I believe he would be referring to the Church OF Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints :) minus an O I used that abbreviation a lot until I got lazy and usually just stick with wording it to use LDS :) Just to strain the semantics: If I'm not mistaken, this abbreviation is the common used, when folk want to refer to the official name of the church. The 2nd "of" is left out because, while the emphasis on the Church being OF Jesus is important, it's sufficient to say that this church of Jesus Christ is peopled by Latter Day Saints. I don't recall ever seeing COJCOLDS. You're probably right I just have a tendancy of using English in my own unique way.

As Ben said I love having the Agency to choose. Ultimately regardless of what the prophets do or don't say we do have our own choices that we must stand accountable before God on. So what is it that we are doing and why? Why would one want to see the movie? As far as the movie itself , I don't think the movie is all bad and probably does reflect a lot of things that could be very useful to some people. I truly believe Mel Gibson sincerely thought he was doing a good thing at the time he made it. It was a good seed planted in good faith. So no doubt some good things will come about. Whether watered down truths or not (what he tried to do was the cold hard truth) The movie could and did call people to reflect on christ and his sacrifice. It motivated people to see the consequences of their actions and the enormous price that was paid. This drew some people to want to change the course of their life and repent. Wasn't there people that even turned themselves into the law because of it? That is a good thing. I don't think the prophets or any good person would argue against that at all. Some people needed to see it. They may not have understood or been willing to learn another way. Understanding of the great price and repentence needed to be sought. It was a necessary line to some. But I don't begrudge those who do not wish to see it. On religious or moral grounds. Rated R can be very bad. With many of the things we are trying as Christians to avoid. Why put pictures into your head you can't get out? What is the purpose in it? The heavy violence in this particular movie was a lot. Even if it is what Christ went through. Not everyone can handle it well or will use it to feed their appetite for violence. As before I think in the case of the crucifixion many details were left out for a reason. I did have trouble with people taking young children to see the movie because I think it was too much violence that they do not have the tools or understanding to put it into perspective. The intense focus on the tortuous sacrifice was concerning . Don't get me wrong. I think everyone should be aware and appreciate what was done for them. But it isn't the whole picture. It lays on so thick the tortous side and glosses over the most powerful part of it all. I guess I'm kind of sensitive lately about the intense emphasis on Christs sacrifice and its doom and gloom and not the joy, hope, peace, and love side that was shown through the resurrection and the rest of Christs love. The cleansing that is possible. An unintended result is that people can use the intense sacrificial focus to feed feelings of unworthiness and extreme poor self esteem. Having the priveledge of taking the sacrament reminds me not only of the great sacrifice of Christ and the need to repent and start anew but the cleansing that is possible because of His resurrection. Christ died and rose again. In the LDS church water is used which reminds me of the act of baptism. Going down into the water and coming back up. If Christ had stayed in the grave I could never have hope or be cleansed.' For me Mels movie might shock and awe me into some intense feelings but it misses out on truly bringing back the hope and keeping me going. Which is what Christs sacrifice really accomplished. The same feelings he tries to draw out can be felt more intensely and powerfully by taking the sacrament. So why would someone settle for less? Why weed out the truth when you can have it right there? People don't want to seek biblical direction from someone they don't feel is really inspired. I know many people who questioned Gibson authority even before his recent incident with police. So if that will stand in the way of them appreciating the truths he presents then I can understand why they wouldn't want to go see it. It all boils down to personal choice and what we do or don't feel comfortable with. Its the wonderful power of free agency to be wielded wisely. The prophets can say whatever they want but people don't have to listen or do. They must find out how to work it into their own lives.

I have to agree with you here. While I think we should be aware of and appreciate the intense sacrifice that Christ made for us. Focusing too much attention on the evil act. Of christ in pain and agony does not paint the whole picture. What Christ did for us was love beyond words. But he did it so we would not have to suffer as he did. Christ wants for us to have a hope and future. To turn from sin so we don't have to face the torment he did. He wants to spare us from it. So why would we want to watch each little detail? Men are that they might have joy. Thats a task in itself some days. By focusing in on His death only we miss out on the hope that is to come from it. We miss out on the true beauty of it all. If Christ had not risen our hopes would be in vain.The Passion might be useful in helping some people to truly appreciate what Christ went through on their behalf. I don't know that thats a bad thing. But for some seeing it might do more harm then good. It may not help them to grow in the gospel. While I do believe Mel Gibson did his best to portray what he believed to be true to what happened, One thing that troubles me is that in the intensity of it. the other half is missed. The important culmination of it all. Much attention is focused on christs sufferings but what about Christs resurrection? Its like the movie tries to shock people and leaves it there with only a little mention of the resurrection. One of the things I love about the LDS church is that it normally only shows the resurrected christ. While I personally grew up with the symbol of the cross and and had never thought anything of it prior to the joining of the church, I do appreciate the focus being put onto the hopeful side of things. I don't think those who have crosses are automatically doomed or anything. God knows the hearts of man. Its just nice to see the resurrection side and not just at Easter. That God loves us despite our sins, is willing to call us his children, that He has done all that he can do to have us return to Him.... WOW As far as remembering the Lords sacrifice, the sacrament does remind me of Christ sufferings and my duty to diligently to what's right. There is a price to sin. I'm not sure visually watching a representation of all the bloody details will really change the gratitude I feel or help me to better follow. For me it can get a little depressing to just be focused in on His death and sufferings. Everyone has to make the decision for themselves in the long run I guess...prophet or no prophet.

Just a wild guess but I believe he would be referring to the Church OF Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints :) minus an O I used that abbreviation a lot until I got lazy and usually just stick with wording it to use LDS :) Crimson-I like your idea about the apostasy being the most compelling. Interesting... But for me the most compelling gospel teaching revolves around the vivid contrast between Jesus moments in the garden of gethsemane and evils temporary rejoicing at the death and sufferings of Christ vs the hope and strength that arose from the resurrection of Christ. Its amazing to me. Because of it we have the ultimate example of rising above all. Evil may triumph for a time but even the bonds of death cannot stamp out the good. (makes me rejoice too in the LDS concept of the redeeming of the dead). Things will work out. Even death, one of our greatest enemies cannot gain victory over us. God's kingdom extends beyond the bonds of our mortalness and we can return to God again.

Just because God uses different methods and techniques to reach his children does not mean that he is not in control. Our leaders do and will make mistakes I am sure, since its in their nature, but it does not alleviate the need to seek after the truth that God has specifically shown them because of their God given position. Using earthly example. The parental role is one in which children should be able to turn to. But even parents have certain constraints or guidelines that they must follow. Such it is with God with whom the system has been established already. Parents utilize a variety of methods of teaching their children. Each set of circumstances can be completely different and is affected to some degree by the environment at the time. Looking at some of the things that have happened that appeared contradictory at the time, it can actually be seen as appropriate handling of the situation. It can actually show loving power and direction. Thus it is with God and leaders he has chosen. When people are engrossed in sin things never look very good. The consequences are awful and should be. Unfortunately the good can take a beating and sin can appear to prevail in the shortterm. As far as polygamy it could be seen as serving a useful purpose at the time. The blacks not having the priesthood could also be a reflection on society too and protective of the new church. Things did get set up for the priesthood to be given quite quickly after the start of the church-the civil war, the civil rights movement..... Sometimes certain things need to come about before we are able to truly see and appreciate what is going on. I can't help but think life is one big paradox or gestalt. Our time and place affects where we appear in it and how we view what God is doing. Regardless , everything going on helps us greater appreciate continued personal revelation and direct communication with God. We all start out with milk before the meat and sometimes we are given milk when we cannot have meat. That does not mean there is no meat. Sometimes we can have too much meat and not enough of the basics 1st corinthians 13:11 http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display...1-602-4,00.html

Some really good points. The church will not be led astray into full apostasy again. But individuals can be away from the spirit. We can not see the intent of peoples heart. When they are in or out of the spirit so to say. Only God knows for sure. Some people can put on a really good act. Joseph Smith "lost" parts of the scriptures when he was not fully obedient but I can't imagine the most precious truths ever being taken again. There will, in my opinion, be personal apostasies that will bear their accountabilities but nothing that will ever have such an eternal impact as when the priesthood was takenSometimes truth can not be fully understood depending on a persons particular circumstances. To some degree truth is relative for people to protect people. Like looking at the sun (son). The more christ like you become the more sun "son" you can handle without as much protection. There are differences in accountability and knowledge between the Prophet and the individual member. The prophets I knows would most likely be a little different from the average member due to the calling and responsiblity attached. As far as false doctrine or opinions could it not be the spirit actually at work revealing it to the individuals heart and actually correcting that misinformation thus helping to avert apostasy?. For those who aren't adept at feeling the spirit or recognizing it it could be hard for them to understand. Thus the reason for concern over whether to address it so it doesn't crush them. I've had times where I heard something and then went back months later because it hit me in a way it hadn't before. Wouldn't that be more power in the where two or more are gathered in His name because there would be enough truth there and also mistruth accounted for? Couldn't God account for all potential errors and also be helping us out?

[ You've brought up some good points. You're right there is no quarantee. I think of abuse victim tendancies. Many times, unfortunately the pattern continues. People sometimes leave someone bad only to go to another bad person. So the Iraqis may find someone to follow that is just as bad if not worse. On the other hand as long as these people are under fear that he may rise up again (as he has before) and have no hope at all it is almost a guarantee that nothing will ever change. The Iraqi people need to stand up if the country is to have hope. As far as helping out Sadamm. As far as I know you are right we helped Saddam and Osama for that matter.In any case i really think we should consintrate more or IRan since that seems to be where the psycho path leader is. and if the USA pulls out before there seems to be an Iraq that can defend itself u can be sure that Iran will swoop in and we will have a bigger problem on our hands. Anyone agree? Iran is a whole nother ball game as well as North Korea (although North Korea will probably be taken care of by its neighbors). I agree too that we should not just pull out right away from Iraq. I'm totally against that until things are more under control. If we do, you're right another dictator may just walk in. Also the sacrifices of the many soldiers and civilians lives will be in vain

Ok this topic covers a broad area of thoughts and concerns. Each question kind of reflects a different mind path. How far do you go to stand up for truth? What truths are worth standing for? How do you stand for truth and avoid unrighteous offense? Truth vs PC? Gospel vs P(olitically) C(orrect)? Many gospel/church things if lived to the fullest might push away or anger others. How do you gracefully point out evil so that others may not be unknowingly trapped into it? If you see someone doing bad do you have an obligation to step out and do something about it? Many evildoers seek out good people to take advantage of. How do you protect the innocent in this PC age without going overboard? To what degree do we stand up and risk all? Is there a truth worth pushing and fighting for? If so what would you consider them to be? Another area for thoughtful discussion and personal enlightenment that I'd like is that of this board. I thought it was primarily for the LDS friends and associates or those sympathetic or friendly to the cause. Those who seek the LDS view. A place for friendly discusson but always with a tendancy to lean towards the LDS view-being it is LDS talk. However, I notice when someone states a strong LDS view they are being insensitive to others and quickly put into place. In the defense of the non-LDS (forgive me for using the terms I just don't know the proper words to differentiate) its got to be hard to hear the LDS sounding like what they have is right all the time and in a way holier than thou. To not want to challenge people in their faith because I'm sure there are many non LDS who also believe strongly in what they do. Sometimes I have seen people get treated pretty harshly not LDS and that's not right. But to what degree does an LDS site have to be all catering to non LDS view? Sorry if I'm getting into too sensitive an area or wording it in a non PC way.. I'm just curiously wondering how others grapple with this.

Jason-I'm sorry but I can't believe what I'm hearing from you either. How would you have felt after living in terror under this man's rule for almost 30 years? Watching your loved ones, friends and country men innocently slain and tortured? Praying and hoping for deliverance only to see none. Feeling like you've been completely abandoned. Such as the hope they felt flee when we went to Iraq the 1st time and pulled out. Sorry but I can't help but see this as a blessed end for these people (our brothers and sisters) to be on the road of not having to live in fear every day of their life that this man might rise back into power again. They might actually able have the chance or their children may have a chance at some normalacy and peace. This man was cruel and heartless. There are countless numbers of people who have been forever scarred. Why can't they be allowed to heal without fear that this man will come back again to do more to them? As far as the lets all be friends and love each other through all wickedness. I can't help but see from my readings something a little different. While that should be our first thought and first line of defense sometimes we do need to stand up for truth. Christ himself was very short against evildoers. There are examples in scriptures where men are killed or given the death penalty. Some that come to mind BOM-Laban for the plates, King Noah for his wickedness in burning Abinidi at the stake (A book that was supposedly brought about to be used for the last days). Whole cities were destroyed in the OT because of the wickedness therein. People do become ripe unto destruction, I believe as shown through these examples and countless others. Sorry but I do believe that an act such as Sadams hanging can be used to bring about a far greater good-such as Labans, who died from his own sword I might add. This man Saddam was nothing but evil with no remorse. The extreme pain and torment he caused on people. He died by his own gallows. Why should his life be made greater than the victims? Where is the justice for them? As far as the US not having a part Outshined, I believe you are right, because if in the US this man would still be alive 30 years from now waiting death or out on parole and about wreaking more havok because we all have to be friends now. Why are the evildoers always given more compassion than the victims?

Agree completely.But do you think it might affect the US or its allies negatively in the long run? I can't help but wonder if it will be turned around and the reason for his hanging (his evilness ) be forgotton or twisted.

[ Glad to see you here. This is a nice safe place to ask your questions. Keep asking and you will find the answers. I've certainly asked my share. Some may have seemed crazy to people but I asked them anyway. I'm glad I did and still do. With all the wonderful diverse views on this site it really does help to clarify and direct a person to the answers. You've come to a good place. May you find the strengthened faith you seek. A question i've been thinking about lately was whether the LDS religion is considered a universalistic religion. Basically universalism is the belief that everyone will go to heaven if the accept God in the end. (You can try to google it for a better summation). I have heard mixed opinions on the subject but I would like to hear what other people with much more experience have to say :) That's a loaded question, especially having personally looked at LDS from outside the faith eyes. Personal opinion-read and learn all you can about the basic LDS principle beliefs from the source or those who can at least respect it. Try and understand the basics and then you will be able to better recieve and understand the answers given from an LDS perspective. A couple line sentence may not give you a complete understanding of what you are asking. If you don't understand the basic concepts you may miss out on the complete answers you are seeking. Good luck

I'm, for one, glad that that man is unable to harm anyone again on this earth. That being said I am concerned of the possible long term repurcussions from his hanging. I think that there's a lot of undesireable consequences that can come from it, maybe not even considered now. I doubt overall that it will bring about much good. Maybe just to much dark or last days thoughts.

Wasn't there a big difference in intent between the two? Can't that play a part? Also in the case of the Amish what good would come out of punishing the family because of the actions of the loved one? The killer was already dead. Sadamm was pure evil. His autrocities were so huge and this man showed no remorse. He paid for his own transgression. The killer of the amish, though his acts were evil was the act of a tormented soul something that Sadam didn't exhibit. He never really exhibited a conflicted soul nor remorse. Would Sadamm have ever repented? I can't help but think that there is that point of no return where your soul becomes so hardened and evil there is no going back. This man was evil. I personally know quite well some who suffered immensely because of him. He just didn't lose it one day and kill someone. This man had a great evil history of torture. If his heart was so hardened, could this not be an act of deliverance for the victims to not have to worry about him ever hurting anyone again? Because chances are he would. As far as the death penalty isn't it a merciful act for the killer? How can you really repent of such evil actions? Won't he either be racked with enormous grief or do it again? As far as the scripture verse you quoted couldn't that be where continued revelation comes in to play. To help give wisdom and direction in each individual circumstance? As Outshined pointed out, you're applying christian standards to Iraqi people, primarily Islamic, who chose to have him executed after review of the evidence.

"Men (or women :) ) are that they might have joy". Are we really missing out by drawing closer to the gospel. So how can we feel it inside? Some thoughts for personal consideration In my opinion You've tried to lead a righteous life. You feel you've missed out-But what exactly do you feel you missed out on? I kind of get the idea you want to go outside some gospel standard or LDS cultural standard. That leads me to this thought-the grass looks greener on the other side-but is it and for how long? Are there creative ways to spice up your life with gospel standards intact? Not to say that life is ever perfect, but I can't help but notice certain behaviours defineately to certain results a majority of the time. Many standards are to help protect some social standards can sometimes seem to go beyond the help into hurt department. I guess I'd just urge caution, prayer and creativity to help you through these feelings and any action you might be led to. Sometimes going outside the box can actually build us up. Do what you have to do but I guess I would just urge you to be VERY cautious. Breaking simple social norms or "traditions of men" may provide relief but just be cautious on some of the serious gospel points and how far you stray. Remember "wickedness never was happiness" :)

Christ chose this path. Amen. Agreed. Although innocent, he took upon himself everyones sins. Which made him "dirty" and punishable. It was so bad that Heavenly Father turned His back. But when I look at it as God being only one "person", it really changes the story. Here you have God who created people, came up with a bunch of rules, then comes down to in a sense just show of his power. He was never really at risk, never really gave up everything for everything. But was he truly man if he was still running everything and performing Gods duties? If all his powers were intact as God. I believe that though he sinned not and remained faithful to the Will of God that he did relinquish or his powers were veiled. The fact that he struggled like us, who also cannot see our eternal destinies and that he learned and grew along the way just like you and me is more aweing then the other view of God morphing himself into a mortal being. It sounds way to weird and complicated. I believe our world is in the pattern of the eternal. That we can understand the patterns of heaven by looking at our world. If God is this blob floating out there morphing himself into different things it makes it a harder God to every understand or really know. Then in my mind why are we encouraged to ask and then we shall recieve, knock and it shall be opened? Also "this is eternal life to know God the Father and His Son Christ whom he hath sent." So many things point to me the reality that they are 3 seperate entities joined together in one.Also once again if Jesus was God. And the only ONE God. (Not 3 seperate) He took on mortality and all the sins of the world (which goes against the basic fundamental of God himself) then who was watching the world? Who was answering peoples prayers? Normal, mortal people cannot do this. Therefore he is not as many people would say is a God who knows me and has been in my shoes. Looking at the LDS structure and understanding of Oneness though the answers to these questions make complete sense. God couldn't do it HImself. It wasn't HIs mission. As we should be with one anothers-most noteably our spouses. When one believes in the Godhead -3-in-1 aspect of God it makes it all the more meaningful and powerful. Christ really gave up all while God helplessly watched for the good of all. WOW Seeing such a powerful act of love as seen from the view point of 3 seperate makes me really want sign me up to do the will of God rather then seeing it from 3 in one wondering what kind of delusional entitity I might be following.

. . Looking back i noticed how this might come off wrong when lined up with the first origional questioner. It really looks kind of insensitive now to me. I just saw a different train of thought or different perspectives from some of the latter posts and was running with that and was responding more to ideas raised there. . I didn't mean that to come off in any bad way, especially to our origional questioner (although I must confess the smile thought was directed at one dear online bro:))

we all know main lds examples why we it is believed 3 seperate -jesus baptism, in the garden...ask God :) or any good missionary for more or if you don't kow at all. Some questions for consideration................ if they wre not three completely seperate then who was watching the earth when christ died? if no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God...and christ took upon him all the sins of the world? wouldn't God be breaking his promise about leaving and forsaking? would he even be God in the fullest sense? If the only God we know was locked out by his own conditions who would save him? Understanding LDS concepts for these question the answers are are easily undersood and aweing. .

Well, I'm obviously not a linear thinker. I think you hit on some important things here. The Spirit drew my attention to it:) 1. We don't have a perfect knowledge of all things but are constantly growing. 2. God however in his wisdom has given us certain knowledge that we need. 3. He has given us others and scriptures to help us gain and understand certain truths. 4. To what degree might we actually shut out God or pieces of His truth if we aren't drawn to the things he has placed in our path to help us gain truth, knowledge and understanding? We need to encourage as the apostle Paul and others did those things that are good and holy so we gain that knowledge and experience for ourselves. That we might find the knowledge and truth we need for our particular circumstances. we might ask God for help or knowledge but don't be surprised if you don't hear a resounding voice from Heaven. Many times other people will be put in your path. I think empathy, humbleness, and patience are 3 of the greatest things a teacher can have to help them effectively teach.

thanks again all for the prayers. on a much lighter note :) - did someone slip in there prayer requests one of would you silence Rosie ? she drives me crazy? or please would you shush this sister up???????????? if so it only partially worked i only broke one hand and can still type somewhat with the other. Please if you did no more... . My other hand can't take it... One good thing out of this is my weaker non dominant hand is going to become stronger having endured and met the challenge. Even though its kind of complaining a little right now. I must say this is going to take some major getting used to. I never realized or really appreciated how great a gift two hands really are- especially around the holidays. B) I feel a chorus coming on.....Count your blessings Count them one by one... That's as far as I'll go my working hand says enough And by the way-no my head didn't get hit too.