rosie321

Read and skimmed through the different comments. Injustice/sacrifice overpowering the demands of justice....can really appreciate those thoughts and your understanding. An example, probably not the best, I couldn't help but thinking of it, Was the traditional, stereotypical married couple with children. The mother usually is the softer one with greater bowels of mercy so to say. The father usually goes in with the authorative justice side of things to keep things moving. The two are forces to be reckoned with. The father usually is softened by the mothers pleading. By her overpowering bowels of mercy. She understands the rules must be followed yet still pleads on her childrens behalf so that the full justice and wrath for error or wrongdoing may not befall her beloved child. The father beset with love with love for his honey and childtakes a second to really consider the details of the particular offense. He is bound by the set rules and wishes he wasn't in this bad guy position of having to make the child accountable. While he demands accountability he usually softens it down and is more willing to adjust the punishment if he sees the child is sorrowful for what he has done. He very well may listen to the mothers pleadings (for a peaceable homecooked dinner..night with honey :) etc....errr I mean a more proper correction for his child. If the child is abnoxious and unwilling to change or stop the father will most likely mete out the full measure of punishment. No mercy. The overpowering justices interpretation as you introduced it AK or AKA CrimsonKairos really shows the importance of the sacrament and our going and partaking of it to in effect cancel out the justice. Justice has no hold. That is one thing that was brought to my attention in the Alma 34. You can choose to follow the justice or mercy path. Once on that mercy path you really get to understand the sacrifice of Christ. You daily are enlightened to what it is that he went through and as was said in prevous post you develop that At one ment with Christ. You come to KNOW Him in a very real way as you're walking in His footsteps. It isn't a free TO sin pass. Its a free FROM sin pass and a chance to have the AT ONE MENT become part of your life. Without this overpowering force of at one ment better start planning to experience the full consequences of our actions. thanks -glad you're still around Crimson...

Thanks so much for the info. I was afraid that maybe we had lost him forever or something. I'm so glad he's still here http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?showuser=15391 Too bad. But at least he's here yet He is a wonderful person and I too am glad he is here. guess I got a little crazy with the animation

Just wanted to say I really miss Apostle Knight. Don't know any other way to try and let him know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AK if you ever drop in the forums, by any chance, know you are thought of. Thanks for all you've done. Don't know why you're gone. Just know whereever you are that you are missed. Hope all is well with you and your family wherever you are.. God Bless! Thanks, From a touched life.

Obviously there is personal discretion at to what year and to what duration the engagement is. But I can't help if there is some wisdom in some longheld traditions of a period of bethrotal. It really does help to prune out the weeds. I agree with you also that it is an indivual thing and that hopefully the Lord will be brought into it. As for your comments about the divorce rate and the world I find that kind of thought to be the most irritating. Its like saying Go ahead and sin. Who cares about the result. Divorce and marriage are very serious commitments not to be entered into lightly. Aren't we called to be different from the world? Shouldn't we give every forthought BEFORE we are married? We are told there is a pattern in all things. While somethings do not fit into patterns there is a pattern even in divorce, I'm convinced. In sucessful marriages and not. I'm not saying there is not some exception to the rule somewhere. I'm sure that everyone probably knows a couple that everyone thought would not make it and have lasted forever. But I think one should not prayerfully consider the idea that many times certain patterns lead to certain results. That maybe people have concerns for a reason. Maybe the concerns raised need to be satisfactorily addressed BEFORE the marriage takes place. Meeting someone once may work for certain people but lets face it the pattern does not always lead to that wonderful desired result. Who knows what the person is like. As far as the church not pressuring marriage I have to strongly disagree with you there. The pressure can be immense on young adults to marry. The whole church is centered around family. I think President Hinckley has done more to encourage single adults then others but it can't be denied -marriage and family are two biggies in the church and there is defineately pressure to do it. Not doing so leads to lesser blessings we are even taught. OOPs that should be... they SHOULD always prayerfully consider things especially of such lasting significance.

I'd like to talk about this topic more. I have some major thought and concerns based off of thoughts raised over Lindy's marriage but goes farther than that. I didn't want to group this into the topic of Lindy because these thoughts about marriage go beyond her and her situation (even though her topic spurred my many thoughts). Lindy has always been so sweet to me that I'd hate to see her make a painful mistake. But if she has went though with this marriage and is happy then may God bless that union. I truly believe that once one get marries we are under obligation to support that marriage and see to it , as much as it is in outsiders hands to ensure, that they live up to those commitments that are made. I do believe it is possible for marriage to make it even if people have known each other for a very short time. No couple is made up of two perfect people on this earth. (or at least to my knowledge). So even if MopTop has made mistakes I don't necessarily think that disqualifies him. I do believe righteous questions and concerns should be raised before their marriage though. That being said I do have major concerns that I must vent out. The major one is about short engagements and the churchs strong pressure to marry so quickly. Could this be why there are so many divorces? This has really blown me away as a member of the church. Here we are promoting strong families. I'm really afraid for Lindy after reading the Lindy marriage post . I'm afraid she may have fallen into the I must marry now or else marriage pit. That she may not have asked some serious questions before or thought it out enough. (I'm not trying to be mean or anything-I truly am concerned for her and others). I don't want to ruin a good thing though either. Is marriage not an eternal commitment? The very idea of that would make me slow down and really pick carefully. Can it be done in short times? Can a person really know someone in a week or two? In my beliefs it takes time for people to really show their true colors. The first date is always wonderful but can it last the looking at the same person for the rest of your life and into eternity? To me, one of the markers of the holy ghost is patience, longsuffering. Can the relationship stand the test of time? Commitment takes work. How can one know that unless they've had a little history working together, being together (in a chaste kind of way of course:)) Can all the quirks really be managed or will they drive a huge wedge between? Are they pretending to be someone that they are not? Since I've been in the church I have seen many differences in how people live out the gospel. I don't believe the phrase once you've seen one mormon you've seen them all or that we're all alike and one. Even on this board we disagree. So the belief that you're in the church its ok doesn't do it for me either. If I married the first person I saw that showed interest back... lets just say thank you Lord I didn't. I found someone who has stuck faithfully beside me through some of the heaviest stuff life can throw. Thank goodness he's still there and I was able to see its goodness even before we were married. Another concern is like it or not when you marry someone you marry their family and to some degree their friends too. While each individual and circumstance is different, I personally believe that at least 6 mos is a good time frame to really get to know that person and actually make sure you like them enough to spend eternity with them. I have personally seen too many painful instances where people rushed and were devastated later. Sadly, I could easily fill volumes. In fact, I'm helping a few people very close to me who are dealing with this situation right now. That is why I am so sensitive about this and would hate to see someone else fall into the failed marriage pit. I pray this is not the case with Lindy as many are outspoken about her spousal choice. I just hope she stays close to the Lord and knows there are people who love her. May this marriage, if done, be a blessing to her and her chosen one rather than a curse.

wow. from what I read and skimmed it is pretty interesting. While it does lean towards the Catholic view I especially liked some of its ideas. The mirror is one which I had found for myself when dealing with the questions of why LDS and trying to understand God.. Going all the way back to the garden of Eden or I guess even to the council of Heaven. There is truth and good and then there is the perversion of that good or truth. With lots of variations inbetween. That was the pattern from the start in the Council or Garden. All the religions and faith etc have some variance on the truth. When I have looked at the Catholic church, which was closer than most to the time of Christ, there are many interesting similar beliefs to the LDS church. Some very different from other faiths. Purgatory, coming from a protestant faith, always stood out to me as where did that come from? When I started looking at faiths it made more sense. Its interesting to see the LDS church and start seeing all these "ideas" that have floated out there all gathered into one place and clarified or restored. Things that are unique to different faiths. Even baptisms for the dead which are not promoted by most other faiths today. I also liked the magnet analogy. Looks like some good reading. Thanks:)

Not trying to get to deep, doctrinal, foolish or contentionous but I've heard this before and while it sounds interesting and neat it raises these thoughts and questions in my mind- How does this mathmatical coding figure into LDS views and the JST? Were these put in the Bible/Torah as a mark from God or did man do that on his own? Would these have been put in as a sign that someone was messing with scriptures? LDS believe that scriptures have been altered. We tend to follow that you take the overall message. But something like this gets pretty specific. Did JST mess this all up or does his translation also keep up with this? Is this all just fun or a pattern set from Above so we could know?

A lot is drawn from tradition. Woman have been presented as the "weaker vessel. " as mentioned in scriptures. The Bible as is translated and passed down really does paint women as lesser beings. The choice to eat from the tree in most belief systems was not part of the plan. Historically women were no more then possessions. The view has not always been historically one of equal or team. Necessities and legalistics. Lets face it traditionally we did not have the conveniences that would enable a women to work outside. Woman for convenience sake (EG. nursing the young) filled the role of staying home and fulfilling their God given command. Be fruitful and multiply. Men in scriptures were commanded to work and provide for their families. So they have always stayed in that role. As far as verses and what might give the impression mixed with tradition and necessities Here are some to get you started. Genesis 2:16-19 1 tim 5:8 D&C 25:8 1st Corinthians 14:33 Ephesians 5:22 There are others I'm sure. Those were ones that popped out in my mind. I think these non traditional issues can be very concerning for women in the church. (men say women are confusing :) ) How far do you take things in this day and age when necessity often dictates something different from what you are getting at church? Where do you begin to cross gospel lines? Here you have this traditional biblical view ingrained that women are lesser and need to be submissive. That we bear the children. Then we are told that we are to be one. The two shall become one. Which indicates that both are a complete person and =. (maybe different roles). We can do whatever. Then there is the priesthood which women have no part of. The priesthood concept itself tends to put women in the lesser category. Some women innocently don't understand why they cannot do some of these things, especially if they have no priesthood in their home or family. It can be confusing as to what is ok and not. What is proper gospel truth and understanding or not. What can or cannot be done. Why you can't just get what needs to be done done. I think women in general would appreciate having things clarified and more accessible to everday understandings now. The roles and the worldly environment seemed to have changed so much over the years. We need tools to deal with the here and now. Sometimes, as much as I respect the church, it seems like we're using 19th century or bible time tools in our 21st century world. While useful at that time. I can't help but feel that we need to know how to work in our modern technological generation. Not enough has been done, in my opinion to specifically lead women through these role changes in my humble opinion and through observation. To really clarify and explain. To get women the tools they need to be an effective wife, mother, and LDS of today. As before the womans role has changed immensely in our society. Men's has not changed much. I would think that with the modern day leadership we would have more direction in this matter. Just my humble opinion.

I like this new topic. I 'm glad to see people talking about this . These are some of my random, scattered thoughts- for whatever they are worth: There is balance in all things. The gospel helps to balance it out. Women should not be discouraged from work especially with its encouragement of large families. As others brought up what happens if a spouse suddenly dies, gets sick, the relationship becomes abusive, loss of job, or there is a divorce.? I think that the women should be trained and be able to go out and work if necessary. "if you are prepared ye shall not fear. " The church frowns on women working outside the home but the world frowns on people not working outside the home. Didn't the Proverbs women work? That women was full and complete. I don't think this takes away from the male roles as given by Heavenly Father or minimize a women. Can't it be a loving thing to want to help out your spouse too? To support him in as much as is within your power? Especially if without children or with older ones? While I believe the ideal place for the women is more the nurturing environment of the home and that children really need to have a secure, stable, nurturing home base to work from. The reality is that people really do need to be prepared for all circumstances. In this sinful day and age we are seeing a bigger gap between the ideal and the reality people live in every day. If the ideal picture for the different life circumstances is not more clearly painted then more good hearted sisters may be lost. Not having the proper gospel vision for life circumstances could put sisters in some pretty desperate situations or in a position to be scammed. Examples might include all the home business opportunity scams or assuming much debt. Faith is wonderful but I believe that our church leaders do have an obligation to see that people have the temporal skills and information needed to really survive and apply the principles to their life. This is where I personally would like to see more focus as the church expands. I can really see where some would really feel let down and discouraged by the gap in what the world expects and the church does. I think that there is a balance out there. How can the church better encourage or strengthen members in accomplishing what is asked of them? The world of work increasingly calls for things that would be challenging to live out gospel principles. How can we adequately handle it? The church does a wonderful job of painting the gospel ideal but what about the temporal wisdom filtered through gospel eyes that people need to? As in the article I wish that there was more female leadership too, or I guess strong examples for women. That it was more pronounced and not just having to always be translated through the male leadership. People really do need strong leadership roles and the church does an excellent job for the males but women also have vital roles to play in the church and society (regardless of priesthood leadership roles). Strong examples need to be strongly emphasized, supported and encouraged by the priesthood. Given the keys to really do these things. (I do feel that President Hinckley has defineately made efforts in this direction and relief society is being pushed this way more and more thankfully- although the prophet series while good, takes away some of the issue/topic time which women really appreciate). Both sexes are so unique. It would be nice if we knew more about Heavenly Mother(s?) and her/their example. She/they deals with Heavenly Father and watches the children running around in trouble. I'd definately be interested in that. There's just certain things that men really can't express or understand in the same way. After all Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus To best illustrate this ask a man to describe an event and then ask the women. You'll get a totally different picture. There are things that men will just never have to experience or see the same way. Everything is so male oriented it gets frustrating for the females who do not fit into the typical boxes or want more respected female examples.. Its like everything has to be translated through the LDS male experience to the ideal female experience down to the those not in the ideal situation. Women defineately are treated worldly inferior and just underlings by the church at times. When Christ spoke of the family structure he instructed men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. The church family should have the same respect towards one another. It doesn't mean that women still do not need to look towards their husbands/priesthood. Its based on love. Far cry from the show my dominance air that men sometimes protray that appears to go beyond what the gospel intended. I can also see the frustration in the example that a male needs to be present in the building. While I understand if there was just one female maybe safety issues. Or would be a problem for just anyone to have access. But if given to a responsible female or with church leadership approval to insure accountability and gospel ideals. What would be the problem? The sisters in that story were just trying to live the gospel better. No mention was made of inappropriate behavior or conduct. Yet it was taken away because of some technicality? Don't we get enough pressure from outside the church? Do these seemingly unnecessarily rules serve more of a burden then a help to people just trying to live out the gospel? To me the church should be a welcoming place encouraging of positive growth. If little things like that will help people get to the next step then what is the problem? Why do we seemingly push people outside of the church in their most vulnerable moments? Isn't it our job to strengthen people and encourage them during those times? Other thoughts- In all fairness I also feel for the males who fit outside the norm. I know some in the that boat. It isn't easy for them either. I truly wish people would leave the judgements up to God and let people work out what is best for them and their family. Is it Heavenly Mother or mothers?

Check out the General Conference talks and this months Ensign. It looks like church leaders want you back too :) . Since you haven't walked into church in awhile-remember its not so bad. One foot in front of the other.... Oops, a fall. Up again, keep stepping right to the door, now inside, sit, now listen and learn. See not so bad. :) Some other random thoughts: Always remember you are a Child of God, He wants you to be happy -so keep repenting, going back......... Keep trying and pretty soon wah lah you'll be so concerned with learning and doing you won't have time to care where you have been :) Remember faiith, REPENTENCE, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost the 1st principles of the gospel-like you RM wouldn't already know. You get to really learn these again to a level you probably never had, or ever expected you would have to now though. You'll never know what will happen unless you try. Stop letting fears keep you away. What do you really have to lose but a little pride? Good luck to you. bro

I didn't know that he was coming out with the new one. Thanks for sharing. I loved Brigham City , own it and have shared it with others-member and non. So far everyone else has thought it excellent. Dutcher does do excellent film work. A picture is worth a thousand words. I'll try to summarize in a few less. I think he really does a good job of painting the contrast between the world we live in and our eternal home that we work towards. He presents well the evil that surrounds us, not just showing the " ideal perfect mormon world" from church videos. Many things don't fit into the ideal picture. I love the way he brings forth the crazy inperfections and evil to our attention in a respectful, uplifting kind of way. The wrestling that people do in trying to live the gospel in a messed up, sinful world. That evil causes pain..... Presenting the pretty evil picture all while actually pushing us closer to the ideal mormon world. His work address LDS and non LDS. Even where the some church technicalities may slightly differ from what may be practiced (a complaint I have heard from a few members), the viewer is drawn closer to basic gospel ideals. He really addresses the issues that the General Authorities can't (they have to paint the strive to, ideal position, as well as give hope) and most people don't express well. I can't wait to see this new movie. Looks great.

I thought it was awesome! I felt that it was very encouraging and uplifting to all. Its funny how different people take different things from conferences. This is the first one where it actually seemed like most of the talks were like the Lord actually speaking to me personally through these mouthpieces. It was like an answer to prayer in almost every talk. This is not to say that no other conference has ever mattered. Its just usually there are a number of talks that are so geared towards areas that I'm not necessarily dealing with at the time or don't really apply to me (ex)pornography, alcohol abuse..). In the past I really just want to fast forward through the others at the moment because I feel like it doesn't apply to me at the time. I'm sure it did apply to someone, I just felt left out I guess. This conference was different. I felt that there was something that everyone could use and benefit from in every talk. That it really could be used by everyone no matter where they are at and their personal circumstances. I thought it was also welcoming to people from other faiths. There are many talks I feel very comfortable sharing with non member friends and family to help them find the strength they need in these last days. In the past I have not always felt the same as there were many things that were specific to our church or might be misunderstood. This one was one is one in which I have already felt comfortable sharing with others. I didn't feel I had to prepare them or explain basic concepts for them to understand. Basic truths were so plainly and simply shared in a universal language. I also felt the humanity and faith of these men. They have seen the bad stuff of life but they look forward in faith to the day that the Kingdom of God will govern the earth and all will be made right. It made me feel better as I struggle along to not just hear what I should be doing but really see their strength as their humanity and struggles were displayed. Their wrestlings and encouragements with the same things I deal with made me feel I'm not so off the wall. I think as things get crazier in the last days we all are going to need to make sure we have the basics down. All of us need to really know what it is we believe and why. That we have our faith based on Christ and the hope of his resurrection. That we do all we can to press forward and share with others what we know. Things that will build up others. Otherwise we won't have the strength to withstand the evil day. I think of what I've heard before that things will be shaken and only the elect will make it. We are going to need lots of faith, endurance. This conference really worked on reinforcing the basics we all need, in a refreshing way. I loved it

Thanks winnie for sharing your experience. I have scarily had experiences like yours. Where I have actually seen things in vivid detail and they have happened. Or I have had dreams with definite meanings. Granted it is thankfully kind of rare in comparison to the number of dreams I have. They stand out clearly though against all others and I know inside they are different. They stay with you. They do not go away from your mind. The other dreams mean nothing really but there are those that just nag at you. I have tried to write them off because most I know would think I was crazy or being led straight to hell but then they are lived out. I've done nothing to create it. No self fufilling prophecies. Many times things are out of my hands. I just see or am taught. Freaky. Since most involve death, dying, accidents, tragedies, changes, or negative stuff I really dislike them. Sometimes I wish I didn't see or know certain things. I shiver inside when I think of all the prophets must have saw through history. When they say that they have seen our day. I have had a few positive ones though that I really was grateful for. One was a circumstance I thought was going in a negative way. I started to concern myself with it. I was able to see the positive outcome. I've been thankful for those dreams.

Thanks again all. This is a difficult subject to talk about and I don't want to start anything that might cause dissention or confusion. I don't want to tread on sacred things. I looked up spiritualist church on the internet. I found this description on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualist_Church I found most beliefs listed there in common to the LDS church. To what degree by nature are we spiritualists? Where do we draw the lines. Do you believe in chrisian mediums? Maybe its just the bad connotations associated with the word medium. I can't get by all the glamorized tv ones or scammers. I just have a bad taste in my mouth. I think given scriptural examples it is defineately possible. Dreams and visions seemed to be used to benefit oneself and others. To offer God's wisdom. To give warnings and direction. To express God's displeasure. The scriptures do have warnings about dwelving into such things. I think these are geared towards when people are trying to go outside the wisdom of God. When they try taking His place. The person use it to their benefit and enrichment only. To cause people to procrastinate the day of their repentance. When they try and profit like some of the mediums out there now. What are your thoughts?

Thanks Tux and Pushka for your replies so far. I appreciate them. Tux I know that you can not advise me on something like this. I do appreciate hearing others thoughts though so I can get needed information to better understand this area. I don't want to stir up trouble but I really do want to better understand and put into prospective others views and information. I guess when it has come to this I get a little nervous where to get the information. Maybe its just to many of the advertised mediums, people who scam others by trying to prophesy, the bad side of it. I get really leary even discussing it. This just seemed maybe a safe place to discuss with many different views. I don't know anything about the spiritualist church. Maybe I should learn some more. Thanks for the idea. I don't plan on acting out in any crazy ways or anything. I guess that's why I'm seeking discussion. I feel I have had experiences before. Some might label it crazy or coincidence. Who knows. Its just strange to me the people who have come to me on one of the matters normally don't have such things happen to them. They have come to address me on this matter. I had ruled this matter done or something that was closed. I have not really given it much thought and pushed it out of my mind. They keep bringing it back. So maybe the message is being taken to them then coming back to show me you may try and close your eyes. But that doesn't mean it is possible. This is something that is-like it or not. I think I have had visions, prophecies, seen things happen etc. It scares me. Some things are best left unknown. I also don't want to be going off into areas that I shouldn't . Where are the fences?

Some more specific thoughts and questions... How do you know it is of God or not? There are different spirits out there. Can the average person have visions or is it just reserved for church authority type people . It is possible and lines up with scriptures. It is not out of the realm of possiblity. But things that would be extremely challenging to handle at this time and require much. Its scary to think about. I guess my next question would be as according to Pauls comment in the New Testament. -All things are possible but all things are not profitable. How do you know for sure its right for you at this time or applies to you at this time before having to experience it Or how do you prepare for it and utilize the information? I guess half of me is looking for a way out or a way of best handling this matter if it this is a vision type of thing. I seek more strength and peace because I sure will need it. (This I realize can not be provided-some prayers certainly couldn't hurt though:)) The other is curiously looking for discussion on a matter that is not often talked about but is there and is a big tool that God has and could use. I want to know how different people fit it into their religious belief.

Just wanted to know what others thoughts were on dreams. Dreams were involved in a few very popular scripture stories. It was God's way of warning people or telling them of things that were going to happen. To prepare them or serve as a witness. (Joseph, Nebachunezzer, Mary, Elizabeth, Joseph.. just to name a few). Where do dreams cross over into being the result of a bad case of indigestion , unresolved feelings brought forth, and actual events to come about? I have known some who shy away from them. Some even associate them in the groups of fortune tellers etc. that are "plagues" and should be avoided. Many I know consider this a taboo area to talk about. Yet it seems an important part of scriptures and a tool that God can and has used. I have many dreams and some seem very relevant and outstanding. Beyond the others. They stick and usually leads to something. Coincidence or not, I'm not certain. I guess right now I'm very worried because I have had some as of late on a few matters. The scary part on the one is that many others have had similar dreams and have called me to question me and address me on the matter. Some very different people who would not have gotton together and talked about it. They have been kind of timid in their questioning and approach. Should I be scared? One of the other matters kind of has me scared. It's out of the blue. I'm worried about being able to have the tools so to say in place to get through it and do what I am supposed to. What are your thoughts on dreams? How far do you take your interpretation of them? What do you do with the knowledge you have gleaned? How far do you take it? What is within christian realms of treading? Thoughts. Please

Don't vampires sleep during the day and come out at night?

My interests have always been geared in the area of religion. So as long as someone wishes to honestly discuss without attacking or expecting immediate conversion to anything I lovingly welcome it. At first I guess I would also be very cautious and maybe even distant to keep a line there. It's amazing how things change. I remember when an LDS friend suggested meeting with the LDS missionaries for the first time. I freaked out. You've got to be kidding. I had heard about every horror story. From brainwashings, to they'll never leave you alone, they'll ###### you in.... I really did not want to hear but I'm glad I gave it a chance. I've learned a lot . And still do. Most faiths do not go door to door except the Jehovah Witness and LDS around me so I guess I don't have to worry too much. I 've determined that JW is not the right way to go for me and my faith. But I would treat them with respect since they are going out and serving God to the best of their abilities. The LDS missionaries I have a new found respect for and of course now realize that they don't do anything way out there (except for baptisms for the dead ...). If you don't want to hear from them-huh? They're gone. I really enjoy the things I learn from other faiths and enjoy conversations. I guess the tiger comes out in me when I feel backed into the corner. So I'd only resort to the growling dog or something bizarre if after more than one encounter it got to be too much and the person just went way out of line, or kept bothering me and I needed to send the message ENOUGH! If I'm not in lets say a proper state or moment to recieve them I wouldn't run to the door and open it to save us all.

Soulsearcher- I'm sorry that you have had such bad LDS examples (as have we all). Once again I apologize to you for mine. My example was not good either as spoken of in my last post responding to yours. Please be patient with us imperfect LDS . It's too easy to get carried away . Or have things get out of whack . Its a complex faith and not every one expresses it in the best way. Some of us have along way to go in our faith walk . Continue to seek out perfect measuring sticks that lie beyond people. Love/Gospel... The best things take time and work. Please don't let crazy people such as myself keep you from something that might be true .

Soulsearcher I guess your comments would be geared at me too due to my post in the Evidence post geared at JoshK. I know I have been very discouraged by what I have seen on the boards and extremely frustrated. I personally do not like to have my intent or faith attacked as I felt it was. I came here for LDS direction, support etc. I don't mind honest questions about my faith but I really don't appreciate the feeling of being played around with either and apologize for any part I made in making you uncomfortable or upset. I'm sorry that I kind of become a part of it all when I wrote the Liar post that has been referenced in other places because I felt that the LDS were being used and mocked at the moment. In following with the forum question I wanted to give "evidence' in that post to show why I felt that way or show how the evidence can be misleading if wrong. I truly began to feel that good intentions were not there so I made my post for that reason. I defineately think in this case it went out of control and people took it in ways never intended. I have avoided posting since. For that post I apologize. If there is a way to remove them from the boards by all means do so ( or tell me how I can edit them out). I certainly did not want it to come across as an attack to other non LDS posters or questioning LDS who honestly has sincere desires to learn. I in no means meant to attack or start attacks against honest seekers (such as you SoulSearcher, PrisonChaplin, Dr T etc.......) . My intent on that was a little mixed with making a point and frustration. Faith is a funny thing to prove. I do believe there is evidence for it and that its ok to ask question. We are asked to give a reason for the faith that is within us. There is the other side of not devaluing precious things. As the Bible says casting pearls before the swine. We have obligation to care for our faith and not just let it be destroyed either. Also somethings we truly don't have a perfect understanding of or cannot comprehend in this lifetime. Its hard to explain to someone who doesn't know ( like how do you explain water is wet analogy) Joshk indicated that I had taken his intent wrong. If so , I truly apologize to you for my accusation. I did come off very strong. Please see how that might be an example of evidence being unproved. Since we can't see your heart we would be taking your word at it even now So please see where your ways of questioning of people in the LDS faith may be taken wrong. FYI regarding one of your comments (this is the first I'm responding-it was a while ago) I just went back to your posts that stood out to me as being questionable. I did not spend hours on my post seeking to attack you. Thus the lack of organization . I have no problem as I said before with honest questioners but I started seeing something different. I do believe that answers are there and can be understood. There are things that others have pointed out that will help you know truth better. Whether you agree or not is between you and God. I do sincerly thank you because I have been able to go back and reread things and also understand to a deeper level certain things LDS specific. It has recharged the fire within. So for that I thank you. B) . I do struggle with where to draw the lines . As a follower of Christ I do believe in turning the other cheek. Being nice and loving. All that great stuff. But aren't there times when you have to say enough is enough? I think of examples of Christ clearing the temple. I remember the comments He said to the Pharisees and the Saducees that pushed Him to the limit. He was not all smiles then. He was very welcoming to those who came in faith or with desires to learn. He got downright mad at times though too. I'm sorry at times I really get tired and ultrasentive by those around me who come across as just seeking to destroy. Who keep upping it up another level. Making their comments, focusing on areas that are not easy to prove without basic LDS understandings, coming to events with bull horns and big boards, handing out anti literature ,dragging our scriptures and temple garments through the streets, who as Traveler mentioned choose killing and raping innocent people in the name of their God. While LDS may disagree we don't go to other churches with "anti"literature or make comments that they are wrong. After awhile where do you stand up and say stop. What if some of the great religious ones had not taken their stand? On the other hand we are called to be different and not resort to dirty means. To pray for those who persecute us. In the case of my posting I feel I did more harm and hurt people I truly belief purely innocent people on the boards. That is not good. Where is the line drawn? I think , as you Soulsearcher , have pointed out both sides may have crossed over a line. So is it Christ clearing the temple , Peter cutting off the guards ears or case by case judgements? Thoughts? I guess this is why we have our temples and are strongly encouraged to go there. Its a respite-no anti's allowed Thanks Maureen . Just read your post that posted before mine after I placed mine. Guess it goes to show we can all learn something from each other .

maybe a root beer Ultimately it comes from the idea in the LDS idea of the spirit paradise/ prison. After Christ died , as the missionaries may have pointed out theres a verse in 1 Peter I believe it is, that Jesus went and preached to the people there. LDS believe that not everyone may have had a complete knowledge in this life. God knows their hearts therefore will make sure they have every opportunity to accept or reject him. D&C 138. This is different concept from the non-lds christians I know. Most believe that everyone has had a perfect opportunity in this life or God will work it out some how in His final judgement. The ultimate consesus is typically not another chance. LDS views tend to vary too. I've known LDS that debate the technicalities of it. It's only for those who never had a chance to hear and understand. Others say everyone will. To me the likelihood of someone accepting it in the next life who rejected it in this life is not very high. It is a comfort though to believe that everyone will have that opportunity. The ultimate consensus is that it will all work out the way its supposed to. Find comfort that the possibility exists. That we have another chance. But do not procrastinate the day of your repentance either. Ordinances performed in the temple are ones done for those who cannot do it themselves in the next life. Those who made a choice but cannot do the ordinances there for whatever reason. Is it a true belief or not -for you to find that answer for yourself. best wishes in that. :)

You cannot have true faith without logic or proof. You can't have one without the other. Its a marriage of the two. To better explain my thought let me twist and pervert scripture for a second as this verse is not found there with this wording. For neither is faith without logic or logic without faith in the Lord. Sorry. But those words seemed to fit quite well there. Its a magical blend of both. Thats the mystery of life. Almost everything demands some kind of balancing act. (Grace vs Law/works is another popular balancing topic) Our job is to find out through trial and error what that is for us. It is for our learning and appreciation to find out what that is for us. Whille we may have glimpes -Underneath or beyond faith and logic is usually the ultimate truth. Through struggles and effort we draw closer to the wonderful beauty of ultimate truth. True faith, in my opinion, gets you to the point where you can listen and discover what is true. It also keeps you through all the storms that comes against it. It keeps you sane when you are unable to see or do not know something. Or when things are too deep for words. Its a peaceful knowing. Faith focuses more on the heart. Fleeting thought-I can't remember what the term was for it in psychology for the chaos that can be if things are not ordered in your mind. It can be distressing. Faith can balance things out and keeps you sane. Logic is necessary and can steer our faith in the right direction. So we aren't tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Logic focuses more on the brain. Both have elements in them that are beneficial . Some people are more prone one way than another. Your mission in life. To keep growing and to find the magical blend that leads you to ultimate truth.

Since I tried writing a lot in short time let me clarify this post was geared towards JoshK. The other post was confusing regarding that. I was going to quote his comment so it was very confusing as to who I was addressing. I had added in a few comments so to clarify so I put post #'s and am showing what I added in since its hard to tell in the last part since the quote feature didn't work for me the way that I had hoped. These posts are taken from the I have 6 Questions Post1: Introductions post4 Everyone yelling at him on post #4? I think I missed it. Also he has spent 4 days building up the website when as he says in a few posts he has only been researching it for a week. That means he gathered all his questions and information in 3 days! post 9 Coming here for basic direction in his research yet is telling us what to do. He's shooting out the bottom wrung. I could see if he's been a mormon for years or has researched it for years on end. But to be just starting out.....? Post #46 Aug 15 Note bolds and underlining purposefully added by me. [i]Mind you your first post was only a couple of days ago and the post above says you have only been researching for a week. Much time has been spent here on the forum board. Yet you are also able to read all these sources? Pretty good. I wish I had that skill. Post 91 Aug 28 I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced. , "Post 91 august 28. The underlined stataments in his quote makes me go hmmmmm... I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced. Post 98 Aug 28th post 98 august 28 Who's calling someone a liar? You're upset with me. You said you were researching mormism for a couple of weeks with her and then came up with the 6 questions you could not answer. The 6 questions to start the post perhaps? Which makes your other statement in the other post an untruth. post 153 &158 yesterday post 167 QUOTE Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path. Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting. Look above at post 15 , Post 19 I have read much of the Book of Mormon, and I mostly agree with it (doctrinally) What I do not agree with is The Book of Abraham, (which, by the way, also seems to conflict with the Book of Mormon as I said before) but you haven't even read it all by your own admission My comment addedI have not read the entire Bible (ever tried to read Leviticus?) But I have read most of it, I believe that I have studied Mormonism enough before I came on here (as you pointed out) That my opinion is worth considering. But thanks for your thought, I will continue reading The Book of Mormon untill I finish. QUOTE I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things. You honestly think that I would spend this much time on something because I want to "shoot down" anwers? I'm trying to understand. But I don't think pointing out problems with answers I receive as "trifling with sacred things" I apologize if I have come off like that. it is not my intention. QUOTE But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself. What effort would you like me to make? Read the Book of Mormon? Talk to LDS members? Read books from both sides? disscuss the problems I have on a Mormon Fourm? what should I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [color=#FFFF33]Hope that better clarifies my point of untruths being told by you. Which to be perfectly impartial I asked one of my non LDS friends to view it to see if I was being unreasonable. They agree with the evidence I presented and feel that the evidence is strong enough to convict and find you guilty. In the LDS / christian beliefs after you become aware of wrong the next step would be be repentence .

You demand evidence. So I brought up something close to home that you could relate to. If I'm right then its calling a spade a spade. If I'm lying then you can see how easily evidence can be twisted to proove something that isn't. I DO NOT LIGHTLY CALL ANYONE A LIAR. Maybe its not deliberate on your part but I defineately believe you are not being honest or in the very least greatly exaggerationg. You want evidence. I will explain it in a manner that hopefully you can understand. Look at the posts below. They show evidence of a very strong possibility that somewhere in your posts you were not completely honest. While the truth may hurt as I'm sure it did the Saducees and Pharisees I am under obligation to stand up for the truth and to shine the light on darkness. Especially in this case where there seems to be no or extremely little. As for me calling you a liar because you are not mormon. That couldn't be farther from the truth. 99.9% (good estimation) of my true friends and associates (which I have many) are not mormon but they do not take me on the roller coaster ride that you do or jerk people around. I have thoughtfully and prayerfully answered their questions. Their spirit is completely different. Some have taken steps and others haven't. They are very educated people from a range of backgrounds and faith. Most have strong view points why they are not mormon. But within their first month they did not claim to have the answers or questions you have nor present the case in the manner that you have. Yours has been very organized and pointed from the start. I have tried to give you every last benefit of the doubt since people think and learn differently. I can respect them but I cannot respect your efforts. I only call it like I see it. Maybe this could be what is standing in your way of understanding the answers to your questions . Here's my evidence. As I am not great at computers and do not want to spend 100's of hours posting and arranging. There is a large number and it may be confusing. So I have done my best to put post #'s down, their dates, and the posts of some of the comments that I think best support my argument from a small piece of your postings. That way if they are not easily read you can go back and see for yourself. Also anyone can feel free to check out all of the other posts. I picked and chose primarily from one forum. See if you agree with the evidence I am presenting. At least try and understand why I may see things the way that I do. Try and consider the evidence... ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ These posts are taken from the I have 6 Questions I have 6 questions- first post Everyone yelling at him on post #4? I think I missed it. Also he has spent 4 days building up the website when as he says in a few posts he has only been researching it for a week. That means he gathered all his questions and information in 3 days!post 9 * Coming here for basic direction in his research yet is telling us what to do. He's shooting out the bottom wrung. I could see if he's been a mormon for years or has researched it for years on end. But to be just starting out.....?Post #46 Aug 15 Note bolds and underlining purposefully added by me. Post 53 aug 18 . Mind you your first post was only a couple of days ago and the post above says you have only been researching for a week. Much time has been spent here on the forum board. Yet you are also able to read all these sources? Pretty good. I wish I had that skill. I really don't understand that, how can you "know what it is like" without seeing it? You can disagree with their interpretation, but they don't just make things up. The anti-mormon sites I have seen are well referenced. These last two quotes arePost 91 august 28. The underlined statement in the 1st line makes me go hmmmmm. post 98 august 28 Who's calling someone a liar? You're upset with me. You said you were researching mormism for a couple of weeks with her and then came up with the 6 questions you could not answer. The 6 questions to start the post perhaps? Which makes your other statement in the other post an untruth. post 114 aug. 28 More stuff you have read in the what are we up to now time frame? Pretty strong statements for someone only a few weeks into their study. Seems kind of bold to me .. but then again just a differing of spirits I suppose Sorry didn't catch the quote # its between this one and the next on the 6 questions. Don't want to waste my time going back. If you feel I'm graping at straws that is your opinion, I have not read his book that you suggested (yet) His theories that I have read I feel are lacking, prehaps I have not read them all yet. I admire Dr Nibley, I like that he at least tried to research what he believed, I after I read his book, I might still not agree with him, but I respect him. I'm not here to teach, someone reccomened me a book, I thanked them, promised to read it, and reccomended a book myself. It is because you know more about your beliefs that I am disscussiing them with you Read post 153 &158 yesterday post 167 QUOTE Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path. Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting. Look above at post 15 , Post 19 I have read much of the Book of Mormon, and I mostly agree with it (doctrinally) What I do not agree with is The Book of Abraham, (which, by the way, also seems to conflict with the Book of Mormon as I said before) I have not read the entire Bible (ever tried to read Leviticus?) But I have read most of it, I believe that I have studied Mormonism enough before I came on here (as you pointed out) That my opinion is worth considering. But thanks for your thought, I will continue reading The Book of Mormon untill I finish. I believe I have done that with Mormonism, I had never seen it before, I spent lots of serious time with it to try and learn and comprehend it. However, I found some of the answers (in my opinion) to be lacking. QUOTE I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things. You honestly think that I would spend this much time on something because I want to "shoot down" anwers? I'm trying to understand. But I don't think pointing out problems with answers I receive as "trifling with sacred things" I apologize if I have come off like that. it is not my intention. QUOTE But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself. What effort would you like me to make? Read the Book of Mormon? Talk to LDS members? Read books from both sides? disscuss the problems I have on a Mormon Fourm? what should I do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's just some of the posts from I have 6 question forum. I'm sure that if I had the desire I could find more evidence for my claims. But I want to go focus on positive things now. I've had enough of this ride. I'm getting sick and tired. In your christian research have you ever heard of Annias and Sapphira? Check it out in Acts 5. God is not mocked. AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE..... ALLELUJAH!!!!! I feel a little pentacostalism/ gospel coming on . Hands about to go up in the air , feet starting to move.....