The Folk Prophet

Wait... you believe that those of us who are "true blue", so to speak, would not like or support it if the Prophet had, actually, said we should stop putting Moroni on the temples? You really don't understand most of us very well, do you?

There are many 'old' temples that never had an angel Moroni. And there are many new ones that do.

This is not what happened. Again, this is not what's happening or what I said. God's promise is God's promise. I have nothing to do with that banner of truth. God said what He said. That's all I'm saying. You put it on me as if it's me thinking I know something better than you do. It's not. It's simply where I place my faith. You place your faith where you place it too. Once again...it's not me stepping on your toes. It's God's promise. Not mine. I'm doing nothing at anyone's expense. I trust in God. I have faith in God. That's all. I hope I am better at this than I have been. I have been and am trying. But I don't deserve the blame as if I'm insulting someone else for believing that God meant what He said. You are free to disagree, of course. You always have been. But you ought to stop putting it on me and those like me as if we're driving you away from the church for trusting in God. The scriptures say what they say. I believe them. If you feel a lack of sympathy and respect then your issues really out to be with the scriptures, not with those who believe in them. And...for what it's worth, I do understand. I understand the fact that it can feel patronizing. I even brought up with @Vort how I understand that it can come across as holier-than-thou. I don't know how to reconcile that other than to believe what I believe. I believe that if someone humbly goes to God with honest intent and true sincerity, having legitimately pondered upon the words of the Book of Mormon, and asks Him if it is true that he will manifest the truth of it to them through the power of the Holy Ghost. I believe that because He said it. Therefore, the only conclusion I can draw is that if someone has done so, then the truth has been manifested. Therefore they either weren't willing to hear that manifestation, or they haven't done what's been asked of them. That is the only reasonable conclusion to draw if one believes that God made a promise and that God cannot lie. (A third option one could take, which I believe @Vort and the like take, is that they don't understand the promise. And I suppose that's fair. But I think the promise is simple and easily understood, so I, personally, don't opt for that view.) Moreover, I don't believe that coddling false thinking is good. I accept I'm terrible at communication. But if I think someone hasn't done what needs to be done, it feels the best course to be 'helpful', to help them understand that reality. Here's an example, if it's useful: Say you were trying to bake a cake and it kept falling. Whereas I understand that it might make you feel better, and keep trying, to not have a master chef tell you that you're obviously and clearly not doing it right, in the end that is what needs to be communicated to you if you ever want to bake the cake without it falling. The only solution is to figure out what you're doing wrong and fix it. The cake's not going to magically work someday if you're not putting enough baking soda in it, cooking it too hot or cold, slamming it around, putting too much butter or milk in it, shorting the flour amount, or etc., etc., etc. So yeah, I get that if I say, "You're not doing it right," (particularly not being a master chef myself) that you or others like you might get their feelings hurt and, maybe, storm off in a huff, never to bake again. But I can't rightly say, "well, clearly, you did it right and it fell anyway" because that's not true. There's a master chef that teaches us how to bake the cake. If you're not getting the results that master chef promised, then you need to go back to him and figure out what you're doing wrong. And the fact that my cake rose without all the trouble doesn't make me a better cook. But I don't have to be a better cook to know that something is wrong if your cake keeps falling. Anyhow...hopefully that's helpful...but if not, I won't debate the matter. I'm going to follow the prophet's council to not have contention. Hopefully the way I've come across here hasn't sounded contentious. If it has I apologize. I'm still working on it.

From a personal perspective as an individual trying, yes...bad usage of the word. From a broad principle point of view, I stand by it.

Well I was trying to be funny a bit...but also serious. I'll highlight the words that answer the question: And, yeah, I understand that my suggestion comes across as judgmental and holier-than-thou. It is judgmental, but not holier-than-thou. It's judgmental, but not of others. I don't know their experiences. It's judgmental of the truthfulness of God's word. I believe Him. He's made a promise. He'll keep it. Therefore, I trust the failure isn't on His part. Those claiming to have put the promise to the test either simply haven't or are denying/blind to the fulfilled promise. I can't make any argument beyond my trust in God's promises to back this up. But it seems like in these cases that it's a matter of trusting the anecdotal claims of man or trusting God. I know which I choose.

But....it's @Vort. Isn't he always right? Unless he's debating with me, of course.

I think you answered your own question here.

This is the only thing on your list that has any meaning as to staying in the church or not.

Amen.

Every repetition emphasizes, underscores, reiterates, affirms, highlights, and accentuates the point.

Why? And who's "we" in the "things we do" part of this? Because I wasn't involved in what you're claiming "we" did.

Re-reading some of this thread and this popped out to me because of some thoughts I was having (independently of the thread) the other night. First I'd have to say.... who's including in "our" in such a statement? I've often wondered about this when people make statements about "we" or "our" or the like. What percentage of the church has to believe, agree, or see something a certain way before it becomes "our". And when it comes to something like the way temples are built...does "our" point of view even come into it. Or if the prophet is being "tone deaf" do we all get counted in with such statements? And if, for example, you or me or @clbent04 or whoever has a differing view because they, individual aren't "tone deaf" does it matter? I mean if @clbent04's view is right but those in charge remain "tone deaf" and keep putting up the false idol Moroni atop the temples, don't the doors of opportunity remain shut despite the few, or even the many's revelatory sensitivity? In other words...what's the point of opinions even being expressed in this thread or the argument even being made? (Yes, I'm saying this thread is a waste of time... that being said..... it's sort of mostly what we do here....) Okay...all of that wasn't the thought I had independently. Here it is. A bit of a threadjack maybe, but as arguing whether the angel Moroni statues should or should not be on temples is so very pointless that, I dunno.... But here's the thought: Specifically it's in response to the idea of "slam the door shut". And, basically, I don't think that's possible. This is the question that came to mind. Can we damn our own children? And the answer is, explicitly, plainly, clearly, and absolutely, no.* We cannot damn others. It cannot be done. Maybe the idea won't lead anywhere and no discussion will open up from it. And maybe it should have been a new thread. But it is, in my opinion, a thought actually worthy of exploration. And it can, and does, in some ways tie into the topic at hand. *Edit: I don't know why I write this way sometimes. Why did I feel the need to use 3 adjectives that mean the same thing in a row?

I’m not sure about that. The church cares deeply about it’s reputation, and they should. That’s why they have a PR staff and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think you're saying the same thing. They church isn't looking for Satan to look positively upon them. But the church does care deeply about its reputation...but that's because the church's goal is to bring people unto Christ.

I believe that was tried. It led to the great apostasy.

It is my opinion that the depiction of the angel Moroni was an inspired and wonderful logo for the church. I believe those who think changing to the Christus as the logo means that something wrong was corrected are mistaken. The change to use Christ as the logo had a purpose, but that doesn't mean the angel Moroni as a logo was a mistake, uninspired, wrong, or otherwise flawed. I love the angel Moroni depictions.

From some of his comments and ideas.... I'm not so certain.

I watched the first...I dunno...5 episodes maybe. I really didn't care for it.

Except all the stuff that sucked. I hear the 3rd Season is dropping the ball. I haven't seen it yet.

Star Wars has totally sucked lately. I'd be excited...but Disney has proved time and again that they'll ruin it. Again...and again...and again. They are totally incompetent.

Sure. I think @askandanswer probably means the same thing I do. I think it just matters what one is meaning by "taking precedence" and/or "more relevant". My concern is the idea of taking scripture and casting it aside as if it isn't useful or relevant because of our understanding of what the prophet has said, rather than spending more time and effort pondering and seeking guidance to reconcile the scripture in question. Know what I mean?

Yeah, I still think it's a problem to pit living prophets and apostles against scripture.

What are you getting at? The Book of Mormon was explicitly written for our day. Having a living prophet is also clearly for our day. Why would we pit them one against another? I think a better approach would be to use the one to understand the other, and vice versa. Edit: sorry if I'm sounding grumpy or confrontational. I'm sore from beginning a new work out plan and I think I'm a bit out of sorts.

Right. You do realize you're talking about dirt?

What...are you worried about the ground's feelings?

The day I believe the Book of Mormon is not relevant for today is the day I've apostatized from the gospel.