darrel

Welcome Hank, I was born and bred in USA but my wife is half Canadian. :)

Welcome Jasmin. You have felt the influence of the Holy Ghost or Spirit of Truth as he is also known. You are feeling what is described in Moroni 10:3-5. May the Lord truly bless and guide you in your search for truth. I know he will help you share with your husband especially as you come to understand the eternal nature of the family. Darrel

You know, I think this discussion is going in circles. This appears to me to be an adversarial ploy. Or at least a very confused understanding of the gospel. Using your own reference in Romans 1: 20 clearly states with your emphasis repeated many times that Paul taught the Roman Saints that the invisible God had been clearly revealed by the Prophets from the creation. I think My understanding of the full gospel is sufficient for my salvation and your missionary work on this site is fruitless. A narrow closed mind is very fertile soil for the adversary to sow his seeds of confusion and misunderstanding. Kinda like concrete "all mixed up and settled." I know the Lord would open your eyes and ears if you would humbly seek truth wherever found. May the Lord bless you to that end. Darrel

The Bible is the word of God and not intangable or corrupted. It is only intangable and corrupted by those who would believe it to be the only source of Gods instruction to all his children resulting in many divisions and much confusion . God is the same yesterday, today and forever, an unchangable God who loves us so much he gives his instruction to us today through his Prophets and Apostles just as he did in the Old and New Testiment. Traditional Christians believe the heavens are closed. That is what Lucifer would have us believe so he can dissuade us from the truth. God does speak today as stated by Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he revealeth His secrets unto his servents the Prophets. We of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints witness to the world that Jesus Christ lives. We are his followers and he is our Savior. We invite all to open their hearts to the witness of the Holy Ghost and seek to find His revealed Gospel truth in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, in The Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price each containing Gods word and full Gospel through his Holy Prophets from the creation.

As a nondenominal christian the foundation of belief seems to have it's source in the bible only. A belief in Christ must be more than just a statement. It must include the witness of the Holy Ghost. Faith without works is dead, and as stated in James 2:19 Thou believest there is but one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe and tremble. The adversary would lead away genuine seekers of truth with out of context statements and omissions which tend to subtly change truth into untruth.

(John 10: 11, 14-16) Jesus Christ in The bible to the Jewish converts. 11. I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold and one shepherd. I believe the Savior was giving a parable about his followers and those who would hear his voice. If the bible was the full text of this teaching we would not know who are his sheep. The restored truths revealed through Gods prophet on earth give a deeper understanding to this doctrine. (3 Nephi 15: 16-23) Jesus Christ in The Book of Mormon to the Remnant of Jacob through Joseph. 16. This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them: 17. That other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 18. And now because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them. 19. But verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, thet ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you. 20. And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them. 21. And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 22. and they understood me not thid I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice--that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost. 23. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me. (Doctrine and Covenants 10: 57-70) Jesus Christ giving Modern revelation to Gods restored church through his Prophet. 57. Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God; I came unto mine own, and mine own received me not. 58. I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not. 59. I am he who said - Other sheep have I which are not of this fold- unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not. 60. And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and they were a branch of the house of Jacob. 61. And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name. 62. Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold , they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build ut up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me. 63. And t;his I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people tocontention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. 64. Therefore I will unfold unto them this great mystery; 65. For behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens undo her wings, if they will not harden their hearts; 66. Yea, if they will come, they may and partake of the waters of life freely. 67. Behold, this is my doctrine-whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. 68. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but against me; therefore he is not of my church. 69. And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. 70. And now, remember the words of him who is the life and light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen. Who are the Other sheep not in the Bible or in Book of Mormon. We understand the Lost 10 tribes are also receiving Gods revelations and recording them and will be used along whith the Bible and Book of Mormon when they return from the North countries. Thus establishing additinal Witnesses to the Divinity of Jesus Christ and the Whole Gospel. Are we his sheep do we hear his voice. or is the bible the only witness we will accept. Here is what the Lord revealed to to his ancient american prophets and restored through Joseph Smith about the bible. (2 Nephi 29 1-14) 1. But behold, there shall be many-at that day when I shall proceed to do a marvelous work among them, that I may remember my covenants which I have made unto the children of men, that I may set my hand again the second time to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel; 2. And also, that I may remember the promises which I have made unto thee, Nephi, and also unto they father, that I would remember your seed; and that the words of your seed should proceed forth out of my mouth unto your seed; and my words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the house of Israel; 3. And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! we have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. 4. But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the jJews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? 5. O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them and hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads: for I the Lord have not forgotten my people. 6. Thou fool, that shall say: a Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible, Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? 7. Know ye not that there are more nations than one. Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? 8. Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speek the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. 9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. 10. Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need to suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written. 11. For I comnmand all men. both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the Islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written. 12. For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth they shall write it. 13. And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews, and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews. 14. And it shall come to pass that my people which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their posessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted whth Abraham that I would remember his seed forever. Truth is truth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the full Gospel to dispel confusion in the world and to an understanding of the true nature of God.

Any who profess religion must look to a higher authority. Jesus Christ is My Savior, my redeemer, my advocate with the Father.. I know Him, I love Him, I know I will see him and be with him. I know The Church of Jesus Chirist was restored to the earth with the same organization founded upon Apostles and Prophets and doctrine Jesus established when he was on the earth. I know the whole true saving gospel is upon the earth and is available to all who sincerely seek it.

I think the premise that God is invisible is a very narrow perspective of His nature and purpose. The insistance that only the bible has the answer says that God is a changeable God. This is contrary to my belief and certainly not according to scripture. Using scripture out of context and rejecting other evidence without looking at the whole cannon seems to be a ploy of the adversary. Just enough truth to give the appearance of authenticity but then subtlely lead away from the real truth of Gods Whole Saving Gospel.

Is it just me that feels like someone is trolling this forum.

The comforting thing to me is that The Lord will not test or try us beyond what we can endure. Also as I listen to the Conference Talks we are being told to get back to Basics. To simplify our lives and keep our covenants. I understand we will all pass through tribulations but the Lord has told us that If we are prepared we shall not fear. Our preparation is to purify our lives and do our duty. Then no matter what happens to us, we can be assured that in the end we will receive our promised blessings for being faithful.

Your verse Romans 1:20 is the Apostle Paul showing the Roman Saints that God has revealed his nature from the creation. I wonder why many references of that verse would show the nicene creed to be the true definition of the nature of the Godhead. It is clear they all reference it the same, or at least the ones I can read in english. I find it interesting that Apostles and Prophets, called of God, and are Gods true spoksman on earth, had received the knowledge spoken of. The real crux is that His Apostles and Prophets had been persecuted, rejected and killed . As Paul continued his discourse he pointed out exactly who and why they had not accepted the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles. Romans 1: 21-32 21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither where thankful:but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves. 25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another: men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28. Even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient: 29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30. Backbiters, haters of God, dispiteful, proud, boasters inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The main difference in my belief is origions and authority. Divisions and branches make up fundimentalist christianity. Our Christian Beliefs and teachings are direct from God the Father and Jesus Christ through His restored Gospel truths. This was done under the direct authority and through Gods Prophet called in our time to correct the erroneous teachings arising from an apostasy from Christs teachings and perpetuated from the nicean counsel. Many Christians are sincere in their faith and truly believe they are saved. Gods house is a house of order and not a house of confusion. His plan is spacific and well defined. Straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto eternal life and fiew there be that find it. One Faith, One Lord and One Baptism. I know I will never convince anyone of these truths. Only the Holy Ghost bearing witness will open the hearts of the true seeker of truth, will be effectual.

How many Christian denominations are there? Over 3000 at my last count. Confusing and hard to explain this concept.

Have you read the Joseph Smith History in the Pearl of Great Price.

If I may add my 2 cents here. I believe that we have a very simple answer. Either Mormons are right and everyone else is wrong or mormons are wrong along with everyone else. My belief is that God revealed himself to His prophets in all ages including this one so we could know what we must do and believe. I believe through the witness of the Spirit of the Holy Ghost that God and Jesus Christ gave Joseph Smith the answer to this delimma that has been plagueing the world religions for thousands of years Pearl Of Great Price Joseph Smiths History Verse 16 through 20: 16....I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which decended gradually until it fell upon me. 17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages whos brightness and glory defy all discription, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other- This is my My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get posession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt, that; "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having the form of godeliness, but they deny the power thereof". 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. ... This answers the question for me that the nicean creed is a manmade creed and is not accepted by God. Either Joseph Smith perpetuated the greatest fraud on mankind or Mormonism is true. I believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the true Church restored by Jesus Christ in the last days, through Joseph Smith, to lead all his children home to a loving Heavenly Father.

I agree that spiritual things cannot be proven by mans reasoning. They can only be discerned by the Spirit of God 1 Corinthians 2: 11-12,14 11. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I was watching a History Channel documentry the other night in which they showed the discoveries of some of the oldest worked stone heads found in the Americas. They said that they were from the Ulmec peoples dating about 2000 years bc. I am curious if anyone has seen these stone heads and if they look to you to have curiousl features of wide nostrals and large lips. My impression was to think that they resembled a black race of people. Does anyone have any opinions on this abservation. Could the Ulmec or Jeradite people from the Tower of Babel have been a black race of people.

My wife and I are waiting for a mission call as we speak. After submitting our papers I got a call from the Missionary Department who needed additional medical information before they could continue processing our call. They told us that they need to have prospective missionars reasonably healthy so they can fill a successful mission without health problems. Missionarys that have health conditions that meet the guidelines are usually given assignment where reasonable health services are available. (Not Africa or Russia etc) I worked for seventeen years as a Welfare Service employee for the church. I directed many church service missionaries over that time. They all had health, financial or personal restrictions but served faithfully in the local missions.

A good book I use is by Gerald Lund called "The Coming of the Lord". It is an older book but has been reprinted in paper back and is available at LDS book stores. I have two loaner copies and one original volume in my library. The scriptures give us the guide we need but Brother Lund gives quotes and discourses that help put it in perspective. I agree we should not procrastinate and we should prepare. If ye are prepared ye shall not fear. I feel the key is to stay close to the prophet, keep our testimonies tuned to the gospel and keep the commandments. The Lord has promised that no matter what happens we will be blessed and should not fear if we are doing these things.

Thanks Pam but my wife is the good one. She managed an LDS bookstore and also was choir director for years and knows all the resources. darrel

I checked on Jackman Music website. They have it. It was composed by Vickey Saunders Harkness. Here is the website. Jackman Music - The Largest Publisher of Music for Latter-day Saints (LDS) Hope that helps. Darrel

Thank you bytor. I'll give it a try.

Thank you bytor. I need to learn how to do that.:)

The link is the farms website. farms.byu.edu/publications/. I'm sorry, I don't know how to post it. The article is dated 2003 by John A. Tvedtnes in the Neil A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Studies under publications.