Average Joe

I believe Pratt, Young and other early church leaders also had access to the BoM when they were teaching that Jesus was married. As I posted earlier : The marriage of the Savior was taught more often in early church history, by leaders like President Brigham Young, George Q. Cannon, President Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt, Jedediah M. Grant, President Joseph F. Smith, and President Heber C. Kimball, to name just a few. Young, Woodruff and Jos. F. Smith were all prophets of the church (Smith's tenure ended with his death in 1918). I find it a little disappointing when things outside people's comfort zone is dismissed as "crack pot" and multiple early prophets and general authorities are thrown under the bus. Sadly, when it's something we agree with their word is considered the rock of Gibraltar. To suggest that scripture has only one meaning and not levels and layers is also disheartening. If the early leaders of the church weren't true what leg are we standing on now?

OK, they kill the savior because he was a threat to the status quo, so as a follower of his you're going to write about his family in any but the most oblique ways? Where do we find out the Apostle Philip had been married and for a time his residence with his daughters was in Hierapolis, since only the apostle Peter is mentioned as having a mother-in-law (in the Gospel of Matthew)? Do you think they wanted their own families hunted down and killed too as they were?

The Orson Pratt quote I shared: “…Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage, and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82, 83). referenced Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

things spoke in the quiet of one's home tend to get drowned out by the work day...I've found a written reminder in my pocket helps

You've been baptized and given the gift of the Holy Ghost, learn to follow positive impressions and the Holy Ghost will guide you. You also know about prayer, go to your Heavenly Father about the things weighing on your heart. Wait after you pray and ponder any impressions you receive. Write them down and ponder and pray about them throughout your day. Prayer is rarely a once and done thing but as you continue to ponder and pray the answer should become clear in your mind. Once you have your answer, do it (walk by faith). Personal revelation from your Heavenly Father is the best advice you can ever be given. Good luck! :)

Talk to the activities committee in your ward, if your ward doesn't have one talk to your bishopric about putting on a show, you direct and youth and other interested members could participate. Give it a shot.

So before Pres. Jos, F. Smith died in 1918 it was taught but after 1918 we don't know? It hasn't been sustained as church doctrine but when it has been taught by the prophets Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, and Joseph F. Smith and numerous apostles of the time...

King James version

So before Pres. Jos, F. Smith died in 1918 we believed it but after 1918 we don't know?

so will the world at the second coming...that's old news.

Hi Rich I'm a southern blue collar redneck so I just basically call it as I see it. So here goes. The longer you stay away the less likely you'll be to return to church. If your going to church mainly for social reasons you've missed the real point of going - to partake of the atonement of Jesus Christ. Now personally, its highly suspect as to whether I'm "capable" (definitely not except for maybe Shakespeare's "Henry V). My thing is art. More specifically, American contemporary classical art. Now if I drop names like Jacob Collins, David Gray, or David Larned, (to name a few) I'm going to get a blank stare. I f I talk about alla prima or grisaille painting or ateliers it'll be more blank stares. I'm there for the gospel and I confine my conversations about art to local artists. Just my take on things. Good luck. John

Compare 1 Ne. 22:24 with Malachi chapter 4: 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 ¶But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. :) D&C 76:86 -87 These [the telestrial] are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. If that is how it will be after the judgment day, it seems only fitting that this would be true during the millennial day when only the terrestrial remain in that great day of temple/family history work.

Yes, the savior would have needed to be married to fulfill all righteousness. The marriage of the Savior was taught more often in early church history, by leaders like President Brigham Young, George Q. Cannon, President Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt, Jedediah M. Grant, President Joseph F. Smith, and President Heber C. Kimball, to name just a few. In a General Conference address on October 6, 1854, Orson Hyde of the Quorum of the Twelve discussed the Savior’s wedding recounted in the Bible: Quote “…Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana of Galilee, and he told them what to do. Now there was actually a marriage, and if Jesus was not the bridegroom on that occasion, please tell who was. If any man can show this, and prove that it was not the Savior of the world, then I will acknowledge I am in error. We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into the relation whereby he could see his seed, before he was crucified.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82, 83). (Read more here)

Its true that if women or youth are going to be holding a meeting at the meetinghouse there are supposed to be at least 2 priesthood holders present to act as "security"

I have always believed there was wiggle room in the timeline of the second coming. Abraham bargained to save Gomorrah according to the number of righteous found. In the BoM a city had been spared because of the prayers of the righteous. Once the wicked slew the righteous time was automatically up. Hezekiah had his life extended. The sun was made to stand still so Joshua could win a battle. The problem for the wicked is at some point the Father gets to say "Enough." despite the pleading prayers of the saints and the intervention / mediation on our behalf by Christ. I believe Christ was given agency on the cross to chose the precise moment of his death in order to become our mediator with the Father. I believe the Father will use his agency to decide when enough is enough before the millennium just like when the war in Heaven occurred and that Christ will carry out the Father's will just as he has submitted his will to the Father's in all things. But that's just my opinion.

“Satan will be bound by the power of God; but he will be bound also by the determination of the people of God not to listen to him” George Q. Cannon This is true. However, we cannot bring the millennium for the world at large if they persist in wickedness, so the wicked shall still be burned. As explained in 1Ne. 14:12: And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw. The truth stated by Cannon, James, Faust and Joseph Smith is that the home is next to the temple in sacredness. Within the walls of our homes we decide what media, what language, and what feelings prevail. Our homes can be holy places if that is the desire of our hearts...the same feeling that prevails during the millennium can exist in our homes now We can carry that influence with us into the world during our daily walk but we shall always be outnumbered but not defeated unless we allow ourselves to be overcome.

Exactly. Personally, I think its a case of politics interfering with courts...but I don't want to go off on my opinions about the Executive/Judicial and Legislative branches of the gov't and hijack the thread.

Yeah, that just seemed like a no brainer to me too...until they didn't change the venue

The Contributor, “A Dream,” Volume 15, No. 10, August 1894, Pgs. 638-641 was the official church publication of the time so in that way it carries a little more weight than perhaps personal journal visions would have.

First, they should have had a change of venue for the trial. If this case didn't call for it no case does...but there will be years of appeals anyway. Second, the government is off the hook for allowing this to happen. Third, if he is found guilty and given the death penalty after all appeals I have no problem with his being executed.

Thanks, I like finding them. Scriptures certainly answer questions concerning our daily needs but scripture study and prayer also provides us with proofs of the truthfulness of the scriptures. I have no doubts about the Book of Mormon being the word of God and not Joseph Smith's imagination.:)

wonderful of you to share your story and your feelings, welcome! :)

In the “Looking for deeper meaning in scripture” post started by Sojourn in General Discussion Forum I was asked, “could you direct me to the 3 degrees of glory pattern in the Book of Mormon?”I didn’t reply directly, instead encouraging Sojourn to study it out in their mind and pray. I am posting the answer under the Scripture Studies Forum to show: 1) I’m being honest and not just making stuff up. 2) As an evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, it wasn't just made up either. 3) To help others with their scripture study. This may not seem like much of a pattern to some and that’s OK, that’s their business. However, to any that find this of interest I hope this serves as a witness to you that if the spirit would reveal this to me through prayerful pondering and study of the scriptures he will do the same for you for God is no respecter of persons. *** In the Celestial Kingdom those who have proven worthy have the presence of the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost and angels. There is a temple in Heaven. There is a Book of Life (which I will liken here to the scriptures). Those who enter into heaven will have lived after the Manner of Happiness and been obedient to the gospel’s plan of salvation and the ordinances such as baptism of water and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. They will also be endowed. Celestial or 1 Nephi & 2 Nephi The Father 1 Ne 1:8, 2 Ne. 31:15 The Son 1 Ne. 11:11, 2 Ne. 11:2-3 The Holy Spirit 1 Ne. 2:16-17 Angels 1 Ne. 3:29 Temple 2 Ne. 5:16 Scriptures 1 Ne. 1:16-17, 1 Ne. 5:10 Lived after the Manner of Happiness 2 Ne. 5:27 Baptism of water 2 Ne. 31:5 Baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost 2 Ne. 31:14 Endowment 2 Ne. 32:4 *** Those of the Terrestrial Kingdom will have the presence of the Son and the Holy Ghost but not the Father. To enter into the Temple you must have a Recommend which gives evidence you are living at least a terrestrial (as opposed to a Telestrial) life style, however many who are not members of the church (having neither baptism or gift of the Holy Ghost) will also be worthy of Terrestrial life. Terrestrial or Jacob Saw The Son [2 Ne. 11:2-3] The Holy Spirit Jacob 7:8 Temple Jacob 1:17 Scriptures Jacob 1:1-4 Missionary Work Jacob 7:24 Anti-Christ Jacob 7:1-20 Pride Jacob 1:16 *** Those of the Telestial Kingdom will only enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost. Telestial or Enos The Holy Spirit Enos v. 5 Scriptures Enos v. 16 Missionary Work Enos v. 14 Pride Enos v. 22 *** This is (one of) the pattern(s) I have found in the Book of Mormon. I hope it helps any who may also be searching their scriptures. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matthew 7:7.

There are many things presented in the BoM but not by name. Have you ever read about baptism/salvation for the dead in the BoM? No,right? Read 1 Ne. 21:8-9 and then read footnote A for verse 9. What does it say? Celestial, terrestrial, and telestial are a pattern the those Books are written in (among other patterns found there). Each book will mention things pertaining to that Kingdom but not the one above it - unless it would also be found in the kingdom. Obviously, that seems less than helpful in that it doesn't explain how the patterns are presented in those books. I'm not trying to be a wise guy, I pointed out where and followed the Lord's admonition to Oliver Cowdery: D&C 9:7-9 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; I'll work with you but if you truly want to learn it always takes prayer and study. And I'd say your correct about the Nephites living a "millennial" lifestyle "after the manner of happiness" following the Savior's appearance.

Years ago I ran across Barry Fell's "America BC" and it piqued my interest in pre-Columbus America. Over those years I've watched some of the pro-S. America vs pro N. America BoM war of words... I liked the presentation (some of the info I'd seen before in other places) although I don't think it will quell the word war. I guess for me I've always more or less felt the BoM was in N. America but really that was in small consequence to the BoM's being true. And living in the deep south that can get a white hot word war going pretty quick.