Average Joe
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Everything posted by Average Joe
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umm...its not: "We would be of one heart and one mind if you'd all just agree with me." Its: "We would be of one heart and one mind if y'all would just agree with me." just sayin'
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I didn't say I wouldn't be polite or show respect. What I did say was, "I don't do PC, I don't do well with people who talk in circles, and I don't sing Kumbaya" with that in mind, sooner or later I'll let them know how I feel if their just yanking my chain to see if I'll bark.
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In the words of J. Golden Kimball: “I won't go to Hell for swearing because I repent too damn fast!” Now that sentence spoken by a general authority will probably offend some and give others a good chuckle. Personally, I try to to keep things civil but PC ain't running in my southern redneck veins. There are disagreements over issues among general authorities. Brigham Young vs Orson Pratt, and Charles W. Penrose vs B. H. Roberts come to mind. To earnestly contend for the faith is to contend for what you believe according to the light of understanding within you. Everyone has different understandings. J. Golden had soul deep experiences with the Southern States Mission and as best I can recall J. Golden’s comment about the Southern States mission was “the only way to convert the South is to burn it down and baptize for the dead.” I try not to burn the house down in conversations but I don't do PC, I don't do well with people who talk in circles, and I don't sing Kumbaya. Maybe that's a sign of weakness to some but to me its a mark of character to stand for what you believe in without being phony.
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Thank you for evidences. As I said earlier, I have concerns where science supplants faith.
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In 1968 [then] Apostle Monson prophesied of the building of the [then] communist East Germany temple.in Freiberg. [see article here] -
Geneticist Dr. Donald Yates has been studying Cherokee DNA, particularly genetic markers passed on only from a mother to her children, not passed on along paternal lines. He found what he sees as strong evidence that Cherokee Native Americans have Middle Eastern ancestry—ancestry that cannot be accounted for by modern admixture, but which is rooted in the ancient origins of the people. Native Americans are conventionally held to fit into a handful of haplogroups. The term haplogroup refers to a genetic population group stemming from a common ancestor. Haplogroup T is not among the haplogroups most geneticists recognize as Native American. Yates, however, said that it is prevalent among the Cherokee and has been for a very long time. He wrote in his report, released earlier this month: “T is the leading haplogroup (23.1 percent), with a frequency on a par with modern-day Egyptians (23.4 percent) and Arabs (24.4 percent). T is thus a defining mark of Cherokee ancestry. … We can safely rule out recent European admixture. As we have discussed again and again, there was no available source for a huge, sudden influx of female-mediated Middle Eastern DNA on the American frontier. Even Sephardic Jews (11 to 14 percent), many of whom were also Indian traders, could hardly have accounted for such admixture. “Moreover, had it occurred in the colonial period or more recently, the diversity, age, and unique characteristics of the T haplotypes would not have yielded the patterns noticed in this paper. Most T’s would have matched people in the Old World and we would simply be looking at an effect of migration. Instead, we have a North American branch of T with peculiar SNPs [single Nucleotide Polymorphisms, a DNA sequence variation] which is evidently a cross-section of a very old population originating in the Old World.” While the level of the T-haplotype found across Yates’s 67 Cherokee test subjects is comparable to those found in Iraqi and Iranian Jews (about 24 percent), it is far higher than that found in nearby regions where one would expect admixture. In neighboring countries in the Middle East, as well as among Jews from other regions, the frequency of T is only 4–14 percent. (read article here)
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- last days
- last days prophesies
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Have a nice day.
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Don't twist my words to suit your mood. You clearly and repeated stated you didn't believe my statement concerning the Lamanites. You reject whatever evidence is presented genetically or having been spoken prophetically. If you don't believe me or anyone else, by all means enjoy the faith your content with.
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It disagrees with his opinion.
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If you don't want to believe, don't. I'm sleeping just fine with my beliefs.
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like I say, I had heard of the ordinance but not that it was being pushed as part of an agenda. I think your suggestion to ordain women (where have I heard that before) would go a long way to forwarding that agenda
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It is reported that during those years Joseph Smith also received visits from Mormon, Nephi, and other "angels of God unfolding the majesty and glory of the events that should transpire in the last days" (HC 4:537; cf. JD 17:374; Petersen, p. 131). Joseph shared with his family some of his experiences. His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, recalled, "From this time forth, Joseph continued to receive instructions from the Lord, and we continued to get the children together every evening for the purpose of listening while he gave us a relation of the same…. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them" (pp. 82-83). (emphasis mine [source])
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We don't know that Moroni told Joseph the purpose of the Book of Mormon or who it was meant for ...yet by some strange coincidence Joseph immediately sends brethern on a mission to the Native American tribes in Oklahoma and Joseph himself went on a mission to the native Americans.
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Again I gave you quotes by prophets and apostles and again you ignored them because "you" knew better.
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I gave you quotes by prophets which stated so but you refuse to admit that the angel Moroni would have told Joseph Smith who the Lamanites were even though he instructed Joseph over several years before Joseph could obtain the Golden Plates.
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I agree. And as a priesthood only ordinance it doesn't help women. I was just surprised to see the lengths some are taking things.
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I can’t argue genetics it’s not my field of expertise. In that I can only say I’ve read articles supporting a Middle Eastern gene group in the America’s. I think Vort and company has explained this better than I can. The one thing I can say is this. I have concerns were science supplants faith. You say that Joseph Smith lacked knowledge. Here is something science can’t prove; Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son - not only this but the angel Moroni appeared to him. Do you believe this? Moroni had lived in America some fifteen hundred years ago and was a prophet of God at that time. He and his father, Mormon, were historians of the people who formerly inhabited this land. They wrote the history of their nation, engraving it upon plates of gold. Joseph Smith first saw the Gold Plates in 1823, but he was not allowed to extract them from the stone box where they lay. He returned to the location every year for several years, receiving instruction from Moroni. It seems incredulous to me that, believing Moroni actually appeared to and instructed Joseph Smith, that he would not have explained the purpose of the golden plates and who they were meant for. I don’t think Joseph Smith lacked in knowledge in the least bit concerning who the Lamanites and their descendants were.
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The law of adoption was a ritual practiced in Latter Day Saint temples between 1846 and 1894 in which men who held the priesthood were sealed in a father–son relationship to other men who were not part of nor even distantly related to their immediate nuclear family. Placed in abeyance In a church general conference address on 8 April 1894, Wilford Woodruff stated that "I have not felt satisfied, nor has any man since the Prophet Joseph Smith who has attended to the ordinance of adoption in the temples of our God. We have felt there was more to be revealed on this subject than we have received … and the duty that I want every man who presides over a Temple to see performed from this day henceforth, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is let every man be adopted to his father." Thus, as of 1894, the practice of the law of adoption ceased in the LDS Church. Significance today There is no evidence to suggest that homosexual sex was involved as part of the original practice of the law of adoption in the 19th century. However, beginning in the 1970s, some members of Affirmation: Gay and Lesbian Mormons began to suggest that the leadership of the LDS Church should restore the law of adoption in order to allow same-sex couples to be sealed to each other in the temple in a kind of quasi-celestial marriage. It has been argued that this would preserve the primacy of heterosexual marriage but would allow an ecclesiastical equivalent of homosexual civil unions—a homosexual ecclesiastical union. The LDS Church did not respond directly to these suggestions, but continues to oppose homosexual behavior and same-sex marriage. The restoration of the law of adoption was implemented when some members of Affirmation in 1985 established the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ (commonly referred to as the "Gay Mormon Church") and the First Presidency of that church restored the law of adoption, citing it as the theological justification for their practice of homosexual celestial marriage. (source) *** OK, this is something I hadn't heard of before. Well, I'd heard of the Law of Adoption but not that it had/is being pushed as a type of civil union. Obviously that was not the original intent. Any thoughts on this?
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Welcome and I look forward to seeing your posts :)
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there is linguistic and archaeological evidence of Phoenician, Roman, Jewish, Chinese, Irish,Viking (and perhaps other) visitors/settlers in the new world before Columbus. There is evidence in the Book of Mormon that there were more people involved than the Lehities and Mulekites. There division in the BoM of the people into Nephites and Lamanites falls along political/religious lines with the descendants of Lehi being the ruling class. The Lamanites to whom the Savior addressed 3 Ne. 21 were the descendants of the political line [ie: ALL people opposed to and] who had rejected and destroyed the Nephite religious/political line. As for the gentiles being Americans Mark E. Petersen "The hand of oppression had to be removed from America. The people who lived here must be set up as a free people. IT WAS DONE BY ACT OF THE FATHER. But a human agent was required as in all other things. Washington was an agent of heaven in bringing about His work. He realized it and knew that God was fighting his battles for him. So in humility and gratitude he thanked heaven repeatedly for it. "Why was America set up as a free nation? In the words of the Savior, 'that these things [meaning the Gospel as recorded in the Book of Mormon] might come forth from them [the Gentiles in America who set up the nation] unto a remnant of your seed [the descendants of Lehi] that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel.' "Thus we see Washington in his true perspective. As a man of God he was raised up to be the agent through whom the battles of freedom would be fought, and whom God would assist in obtaining the victory." (The Way to Peace, pp. 30-31) Brigham Young "There is not another nation under heaven but this, in whose midst the Book of Mormon could have been brought forth. The Lord has been operating for centuries to prepare the way for the coming forth of the contents of that Book from the bowels of the earth...It was the Lord who directed the discovery of this land to the nations of the old world, and its settlement, and the war for independence, and the final victory of the colonies, and the unprecedented prosperity of the American nation, up to the calling of Joseph the Prophet. The Lord has dictated and directed the whole of this, for the bringing forth, and establishing of his Kingdom in the last days." (Journal of Discourses, 11:17 as taken from Latter-day Commentary on the Book of Mormon compiled by K. Douglas Bassett, p. 444-5)
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So the prophet Joseph was wrong and the prophet Spencer W. Kimball continued in error in your view... President Spencer W. Kimball spoke and wrote much of today as the day of the Lamanite. “The Lamanite people are increasing in numbers and influence. When the Navajos returned from Fort Sumner after a shameful and devastating captivity, there were only 9,000 of them left; now there are more than 100,000. There are nearly 130 million Lamanites worldwide. Their superstitions are giving way. They are becoming active politically and responsible in their communities wherever they dwell. Their employment and standard of living are increasing. “The Church has been established among them to a degree, and it will continue to be established on an ever-increasing scale. There are now more than 350,000 Lamanite members of the Church. They attend their meetings faithfully. They have the priesthood among them. There are branch presidents, quorum leaders, bishops, stake presidents, high councilors, mission presidents, and leaders in all phases of the work among them. They are attending the temple and receiving the ordinances necessary for exaltation. They are intelligent and faithful; they are a great people and a blessed people. … “And can we not exercise our faith to expand this work even further? Enos prayed a prayer of mighty faith and secured a promise from the Lord that the Lamanite would be preserved. How glorious it would be if a million Latter-day Saint families were on their knees daily asking in faith that the work among these their brethren would be hastened, that the doors might be opened. Section 32 The First Mission among the Lamanites Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 66–67
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So your saying Joseph Smith was wrong?
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And having not read "A Mission to the Lamanites." of course, Joseph Smith's directing the early missionaries of the church to preach the gospel to the Lamanites, they headed for the Oklahoma Territory where the native Americans were being settled and proselyted among the Seneca, Shawnee, and Delaware indians...wrongly in your view. Apparently the prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer Jr., Ziba Peterson, and Frederick G. Williams thought they were of Lamanite descent...hmm, go figure.
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OK, my bad. If you read D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21 both deal with internal conflict within the U.S. The post about starting in Chicago interested me because Chicago is where the commodities markets are (things such as food stuffs) and when the petro-dollar dies inflation/prices will shoot up. If you want to say that prophecy isn't legitimate then it doesn't take anything away from D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21. The prophecy in an interview stated a second civil war would come, which is what D&C 87 and 3 Nephi chapter 21 describe.
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I'm thinking that perhaps you read too little. Since you apparently don't want to concede that the gentiles in America are Americans or that the native Americans are of Lamanite descent perhaps reading this will help your education: "A Mission to the Lamanites."