Average Joe

Years ago I ran across Barry Fell's "America BC" and it piqued my interest in pre-Columbus America. Over those years I've watched some of the pro-S. America vs pro N. America BoM war of words... I liked the presentation (some of the info I'd seen before in other places) although I don't think it will quell the word war. I guess for me I've always more or less felt the BoM was in N. America but really that was in small consequence to the BoM's being true. And living in the deep south that can get a white hot word war going pretty quick.

For one - Celestial: 1 & 2 Nephi, Terrestial: Jacob, Telestial: Enos

well, I wouldn't go that far but thank you. Just putting some thoughts out there for anyone to use, add to or correct. :)

There are many levels and patterns in the BoM: the straight forward read, the 7 days of creation patterns, Solomon's temple prayer pattern, the temple pattern, the 3 degrees of glory pattern...if you want to draw closer to God fasting & prayer will help guide your scripture study and scriptural understanding better than trying to apply the Kabalah to the BoM...IMO

"For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world." Moses 5:24 Many carry this willingness to do evil from the pre-existence.

welcome to the site :)

Heber C. Kimball remembered he and Brigham Young visiting a group Mormons who spoke in tongues. Brigham and Heber were baptized shortly thereafter, and it was Brigham Young who introduced Joseph Smith to speaking in tongues. With the prophet's endorsement (including his singing in tongues), the practice spread...Speaking in tongues became an integral part of 19th century Mormon spirituality...The frequency of the gift slowed and eventually those who commonly spoke in tongues died off. Sometimes, manifestations of the gift in the 20th century were regarded with suspicion. Eventually church materials would define the gift of tongues primarily as the ability for missionaries or others to learn languages to preach the gospel. (read more here). Prayer is often a method used in the Book of Mormon to bring about being filled with the spirit/sanctified: Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people… And it came to pass that…he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord. (1 Nephi 1:5 & 12). And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul...And there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed... And I, Enos, knew that God could not lie; wherefore, my guilt was swept away. (Enos vs 4-6) Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God. (Helaman 3:35)

It was, thanks :)

I believe so :)

First Book of Nephi, Chapter 1 1 I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a record of my proceedings in my days. Revelation begins with those things we are taught as a child by out parents. 2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians. I might paraphrase this as follows: “the learning of the gospel and the reading, ‘riting, and ‘rithmetic of the world.” 3 And I know that the record which I make is true; and I make it with mine own hand; and I make it according to my knowledge. 4 For it came to pass in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah, king of Judah, (my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days); and in that same year there came many prophets, prophesying unto the people that they must repent, or the great city Jerusalem must be destroyed. 5 Wherefore it came to pass that my father, Lehi, as he went forth prayed unto the Lord, yea, even with all his heart, in behalf of his people. Why do we need to pray with all our heart? So our whole heart may be filled with the spirit of the lord. (see vs. 12 &15) This in turn allows us to see things from the lord’s perspective. 6 And it came to pass as he prayed unto the Lord, there came a pillar of fire and dwelt upon a rock before him; and he saw and heard much; and because of the things which he saw and heard he did quake and tremble exceedingly. First spiritual manifestation is the ministering of angels, as it says in Palms 104:4, “Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire.” The Lord has revealed that “there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it” (Doctrine and Covenants 130:5). The Aaronic Priesthood holds “the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel” (Doctrine and Covenants 84:26) but worthy women and children may have angels minister unto themselves. 7 And it came to pass that he returned to his own house at Jerusalem; and he cast himself upon his bed, being overcome with the Spirit and the things which he had seen. 8 And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God. Angels are precursors to introduction to Heavenly Father, where visions of eternity are manifest. 9 And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day. 10 And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament. 11 And they came down and went forth upon the face of the earth; and the first came and stood before my father, and gave unto him a book, and bade him that he should read. Joseph Smith taught: “After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter.” To receive the other Comforter is to have Christ appear to him and to see the visions of eternity. (Teachings, pp. 149–151.) 12 And it came to pass that as he read, he was filled with the Spirit of the Lord. 13 And he read, saying: Wo, wo, unto Jerusalem, for I have seen thine abominations! Yea, and many things did my father read concerning Jerusalem—that it should be destroyed, and the inhabitants thereof; many should perish by the sword, and many should be carried away captive into Babylon. 14 And it came to pass that when my father had read and seen many great and marvelous things, he did exclaim many things unto the Lord; such as: Great and marvelous are thy works, O Lord God Almighty! Thy throne is high in the heavens, and thy power, and goodness, and mercy are over all the inhabitants of the earth; and, because thou art merciful, thou wilt not suffer those who come unto thee that they shall perish! 15 And after this manner was the language of my father in the praising of his God; for his soul did rejoice, and his whole heart was filled, because of the things which he had seen, yea, which the Lord had shown unto him. 16 And now I, Nephi, do not make a full account of the things which my father hath written, for he hath written many things which he saw in visions and in dreams; and he also hath written many things which he prophesied and spake unto his children, of which I shall not make a full account. Our personal revelation should be shared with our families in family histories and testimonies unless constrained by the spirit so that like Nephi they might be taught somewhat in all the learning of their father 17 But I shall make an account of my proceedings in my days. Behold, I make an abridgment of the record of my father, upon plates which I have made with mine own hands; wherefore, after I have abridged the record of my father then will I make an account of mine own life. 18 Therefore, I would that ye should know, that after the Lord had shown so many marvelous things unto my father, Lehi, yea, concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, behold he went forth among the people, and began to prophesy and to declare unto them concerning the things which he had both seen and heard. Personal revelation is often a direction to go and do, go then and do so. Don’t fall under the admonition, “And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luke 6:46). Indeed, those of the Terresterial Kingdom include: "...they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. (D&C 76:79). 19 And it came to pass that the Jews did mock him because of the things which he testified of them; for he truly testified of their wickedness and their abominations; and he testified that the things which he saw and heard, and also the things which he read in the book, manifested plainly of the coming of a Messiah, and also the redemption of the world. 20 And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away. But behold, I, Nephi, will show unto you that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance.

Thanks for stepping in and helping this poor, lost, l'il redneck child out :)

sometimes - between bands

I guess it's time for me to give my thoughts on the words of Baptism. In Moses 7:11, 3 Ne. 11:24-25, & Doctrine and Covenants 20:73 we find the instruction for what to say at baptism as given by the Lord to his prophets. Mosiah 18:12-13 is different in that the actual ordinance is presented being preformed. Every member is pretty much familiar with the words of the ordinance, what (in my mind) is being presented in these verses as mentioned by bytebear and ether-ore is either the words inspired by God or a preamble/baptism talk. In either case the question becomes why did Mormon abridge the record in such a way? Mormon understood he was abridging the BoM for our day. As President Ezra Taft Benson declared, “The Book of Mormon … was written for our day...It was meant for us.” (Ensign, Nov. 1986, p. 6.) Any answer would have to bear these facts in mind. First Mosiah 18:12, "And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart." Alma chapter 11 tells us: Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah [and] he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts. And the people were deceived by the vain and flattering words of the king and priests. Furthermore, King Noah spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests. By this we can see that Alma [the priesthood] had a true chance of heart, repenting of his sins and consecrating his work to the Lord. Secondly, Mosiah 18:13: "And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world." Alma had been profoundly affected by the death of Abinadi who had died a martyr, and because he had believed on Abinadi's words and had tried to defend him, the king and his priests sought his life too. He knew the price of true conversion as did those who met with him secretly: "[that baptism was] a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body." What was Alma's day like? Their leaders...did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness being lifted up in the pride of their hearts. They were supported in their laziness, and in their idolatry, and in their whoredoms, by the heavy taxes they had put upon the people who they deceived with vain and flattering words. And the seats which were set apart for the high priests, were above all the other seats, since they were a law unto themselves. This was a time when their leader did walk after the desires of his own heart and changed the way the kingdom was run. The leaders broke the word of wisdom and so did the people. Their army was lifted up in the pride of their hearts because of their victory; they did boast in their own strength,and did delight in blood, and this because of the wickedness of their government's leaders. Their leaders built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with all manner of precious things. ​Do you see any semblance to today? These verses were written to us in our day. ​The scriptures are replete with "the church in the wilderness" theme. Alma the elder describes the way people become members of this church: "have entered into a covenant to serve [God] until [they] are dead as to the mortal body; [that] the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon [them]; [that] he grant unto [them] eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. These members are meant to be us, even as these words are meant for us. We don't reject the prophets, we believe on the calling and the words of the prophets even while accepting they are men with faults. Our eyes are wide open to the wickedness around us so that we do not listen to vain and flattering words which lift up in pride and harden the heart. We keep his commandments that we might always have his spirit to be with us - to strengthen us because have hope in the plan of salvation because of our faith in Jesus Christ. Perhaps that sounds like a "preachy" answer. I just sometimes feel we're to quick with the easy answers (although I realize these sometimes have their place) like: God can do what he wants, fast, pray, read your scriptures. Do we fast and prayer, and read our scriptures for the easy answers...or for the test that is upon us?

This is true.

These things are all true.

This true, the same as with splitting a stake. I have felt constrained about saying certain things about the ward so I'll just say this, where the numbers are great enough you'll need to activate the dead wood sitting in the pews, Where the number of MP are lacking you'll need to activate the inactive, and baptize and retain new members...that's not happening where numbers are stagnant.

IDK, one of my more memorable meetings involved a cell phone ringtone of Michael Jackson's Thriller going off in the middle of a talk. Can't tell you what the talk was about but I can still remember the frantic efforts of a certain member to get their cell phone and turn it off!

they are trying to keep talks Christ centered but talks like testimonies sometimes turn into travelogues. And the strength of the talk or testimony relates very much to the spirituality of the speaker. lol, I've often tried to imagine an LDS revival along the lines of a good old fashioned southern tent service...but seriously, many members are spiritual...however many are there mostly for social connections. I am going to focus on amping up my spirituality and see where the Lord leads

It’s quiet now Here Where waters lap among the reeds I can hear myself think And a hundred impossible flights of fancy are possible Here at the laver Before the temple of God - the fire pops – And smoke stirred by a vagrant breeze Ascends like incense Bearing my thoughts like pristine prayers Heavenward to Nature’s God Alone at twilight Til nearby song birds sing And I look across nature into the eternity Nature's changing face reveals And I wait ‘tween the promise and the dream

This is in a sense true. However, when the split was proposed the ward was composed of mostly long time members [the old guard so to speak] and I felt that perhaps things were too inclusive since many of these families were inter-related (bros and sis, cousins. etc...) but now that many of those have died or moved being replaced by fresh move-ins the situation has shown no signs of change. Though many in the ward are really nice, friendly people...they continue to seem spiritually dead in the pews. Why would the living want to join the dead? I know any change I seek has to begin with me changing myself but I guess I'm looking at how to get a spiritual revival going among the members...

This is World War II-themed ad created by a mobile phone company in Thailand as part of a campaign called “The True Meaning of Giving”. Produced by TrueMove, the three-minute spot uses a war story to show that “compassion is the true communication,” https://youtu.be/N4Yrgkt2JPI

"https://www.youtube.com/embed/Se2C3v1a7OY" NEEDTOBREATHE - "Wasteland" - (Official Lyric Video) Sorry I can't embed this...

Several years ago as a ward clerk I attended a stake priesthood leadership meeting at which the stake president announced a goal of splitting the stake.The stake was eventually split but not that year. The challenge was to have enough active MP to make it possible functionally. I never doubted in my heart when he announced it that it was doable - but as I mentioned the target date was missed although it did eventually happen.I should also mention I live in that great void in the south represented by > 01.% church membership. At that time and up to this date I have personally felt that if a stake could split so could/should my ward. Basically the membership number in the ward has remained stagnant. Most new converts have melted away within a year or two, and its been new move in's that have kept the membership rate steady. I realize this not much detail to go on but any ideas?

This may well be the fact but I'd like to ask you as I asked JAG. the BoM was written and abridged because as Moroni wrote: “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing” (Morm. 8:34–35). President Ezra Taft Benson declared in general conference, “The Book of Mormon … was written for our day. The Nephites never had the book; neither did the Lamanites of ancient times. It was meant for us.” (Ensign, Nov. 1986, p. 6.) In that context, why do you think Alma the Elder's "it's a preamble to the ordinance" were placed where and in the way they were instead of the ordinance itself?

Yes, Heaven Father can choose to allow what he will, as in telling Joseph Smith to use water instead of wine for sacrament. However, we still run up against the issue that the BoM was written and abridged because as Moroni wrote: “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing” (Morm. 8:34–35). President Ezra Taft Benson declared in general conference, “The Book of Mormon … was written for our day. The Nephites never had the book; neither did the Lamanites of ancient times. It was meant for us.” (Ensign, Nov. 1986, p. 6.) In that context, why do you think Alma the Elder's words were placed where and in the way they were?